595 replies to this topic

[one_7]

yossicl, on Dec 19 2006, 11:31 PM, said:

FYI all the Jews around the world even if they have different "home-land-culture” are praying the same prayer with the same holidays from generation to generation as our ancestor where doing 3,500 years ago in the land of Israel.
So maybe my argument doesn’t fit to your opinion and your arguments are empty... but who cares?

the same prayer..are you sure??you people disobey command of ALLAH..

[Mebster]

yossicl, on Dec 19 2006, 08:31 PM, said:

FYI all the Jews around the world even if they have different "home-land-culture” are praying the same prayer with the same holidays from generation to generation as our ancestor where doing 3,500 years ago in the land of Israel.
So maybe my argument doesn’t fit to your opinion and your arguments are empty... but who cares?

I've been out of this for a while so excuse me if i misunderstand anything.
Ok correct me if I'm wrong but in history didn't Moses leave the jews for a few days and then returns to find that they've all completely forgot all of his teachings and their God and instead erected another (a cow out of all bleeding thing)?

If you can completely forget the teachings of Moses in a matter of days and then go off in your own paths (to doom i guess) then what is there to say that  you're not on another path to doom? I mean if you couldn't even be left for a few days without getting up to mischief then how do you expect any of us to believe you've been following his teachings for 3500 years?

And remember Moses supposedly saved you all with a miracle of the splitting of the river? If you can forget all his teachings even after a miracle you all witnessed, then there's no chance for you all.

[one_7]

AcePlayer, on Jan 22 2007, 03:07 AM, said:

I've been out of this for a while so excuse me if i misunderstand anything.
Ok correct me if I'm wrong but in history didn't Moses leave the jews for a few days and then returns to find that they've all completely forgot all of his teachings and their God and instead erected another (a cow out of all bleeding thing)?

If you can completely forget the teachings of Moses in a matter of days and then go off in your own paths (to doom i guess) then what is there to say that  you're not on another path to doom? I mean if you couldn't even be left for a few days without getting up to mischief then how do you expect any of us to believe you've been following his teachings for 3500 years?

And remember Moses supposedly saved you all with a miracle of the splitting of the river? If you can forget all his teachings even after a miracle you all witnessed, then there's no chance for you all.

agree with aceplayer..

[killbot1000]

I happen to take the belief that there were no miracles of that proportion. If things that amazing really happened, they would still be happening...Not that I dont believe its possible, however the possibility that the story became legend and was exaggerated is far more likely as this falls in line with what people do when they tell stories, they add their own little touches, and try to make it more interesting, until its so outlandish that it doesnt really make any sense.


Also, where was god before these religions got started? Nowhere

Also, the idea of god has changed over time whether we want to believe it or not. Judaism used to acknowledge the EXISTANCE of other gods, but said that their own PATRON GOD was the strongest and smartest out of all of them, and that was the god you were supposed to warship.

Also, to reply to Yossicl, I don't think jewish people are bad people or anything, I just dont think they are any more important than the atheist or the buddhist. Whether you want to beleive it or not, Judaism is a tad sexist and ETHNOCENTRIC. That arrogance when it comes to religion causes a lot of problems worldwide. Many other religions have this problem as well, I mostly point to the religions of the Abrahamic tradition (christianity, islam, judaism). They seem to have the most problems with this...just my observation.

Edited by killbot1000, 23 January 2007 - 09:22 PM.

[consolation]

I don't think there is a religion that's not at least a tad sexist.  They are made up by people so are a product of their age.  Eastern religions are just as bad.

[Mebster]

killbot I wasn't trying to suggest that the miracles of Moses are a fact (although i believe in them).

I was instead trying to point out the bigger picture, which is how a group of people who are so good at being mislead can come out and say they are following the same religion as their ancestors did 3000 years ago. If they were able to forget in 30 days (i think) given they witnessed a miracle who would believe that it didn't get changes another 30 days  (never mind 3000 years) after Moses's passing.

Quote

Also, where was god before these religions got started? Nowhere

This is a question I've heard several times in relation to Christianity and Judaism. In Islam Adam was a servant and prophet of Allah. There were others before Adam but then gets into a lengthy discussion of what my knowledge is limited. Islam (submission to Allah) in one for or another (..., Judaism, Christianity, Islam) has always been around although it had different names and at different times had adjusted teachings. The Qur'an is the end the sequence of books that have been revealed (5 in total i think).

Quote

sexist

In the western society sexist is a word people like to throw around without really thinking what i means to others. Islam certainly has different restrictions between men and women but these if you look into them (with a western predegist view) ALL have a good reason and so will not be considered sexiest in many societies. For example in many countries men are able to walk around topless in public but women would be arrest for indecent exposure for doing the same thing. Is this sexiest? No.

[killbot1000]

Aceplayer, the issue is not society, that has its own set of problems (and for the record, if a woman WANTS to walk down the street topless, I have no problem with that, if men can do it, women IN THEORY should be allowed to as well, this however does not mesh well with society and the standards we have built up around it. I happen to not share society's goals, atleast not all of them. When I say that these religions are sexist, this is what I mean:


Bible (both a mix of new and old testaments):

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (blatantly sexist)

-Corinthians 14:34 - 35

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing. (men rule women...what else is new)

-Ephesians 5:23 - 24

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband. (She is obligated to do what her husband says as long as hes alive, when hes dead, she can do her own thing...)

-Deuteronomy 22:5



How then can man be justified with God? or , how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman? (everybody that is born is unclean, because they came from a woman hahaha why do people still listen to this {censored}?)

-Job 25:4

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God. (Let's throw all those women wearing pants into the fiery cauldron of hell)

-Deuteronomy 22:5 *


The Qu'ran:

They ask you about menstruation: "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean." (whoever said that the qu'ran has no scientific contradictions needs to get their eyes checked, it is absolutely not harmful for women to have sex during menstruation, and it certainly isn't dirty...)

- Sura 2:222

Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females. (This seems to a be a common theme according to the qu'ran, 1man = 2 women, simple...)

-4.11

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart; and scourge (beat) them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. (if women disobey, it is ok to beat them....just like a REAL man should)

-4.34

A male shall inherit twice as much as a female. If there be more than two girls, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance, but if there be one only, she shall inherit the half. Parents shall inherit a sixth each, if the deceased have a child; but if he leave no child and his parents be his heirs, his mother shall have a third. If he have brothers, his mother shall have a sixth after payment of any legacy he may have bequeathed or any debt he may have owed.
(Here's the 1 man =  2 women thing again...weird)

-4.11-4.12


I'm not saying that the western tradition isn't sexist either, it is, but whether you want to hear it or not, the middle east still has to play catch up when it comes to basic rights and freedoms. I'm not saying there aren't things in the west that need to be addressed (a lot of things do). But this subject is in regard to sexism, and these religions are pretty damn sexist, the only reason why things aren't actually more sexist, is because most people think that the word of god is a little too harsh and they decide not to follow what "he" says, now if the majority of people don't follow the word of god, because its a little too harsh, isn't there something with the "word of god"?

Also, in regards to Judaism always being there...it wasn't always there, that's what I'm trying to say, we have been brainwashed into thinking that the world started with these religions, and it didnt, there was over 4 billion years of earth before these religions started, 100,000 years of human societies, and about 5,000 years of civilization. At the very best, Judaism (which was the first of these religions) started when civilization started in ancient Mesopotamia. But this does not account for the thousands of years before this when humans were worshiping nature and the like. Which brings me to my final point. Ever wonder why all these "holy word of god" religions started in the Middle East? People (for one reason or another, don't ask me why) have the urge to make things holy. If you live in a forest, the trees and the animals that give you life are holy, or the elements, etc. But the Middle east has very little nature to speak of, it is a sparse land, and you cant make the sand holy, because sand (in the context of a desert) takes away life rather than give it, therefore the only thing left to make holy is the written word, since its the only thing we have left. Its a common mythological theme that has been used in the region for thousands of years, just like nature worship has been common in many lush societies for thousands of years until the introduction of Christianity, and the only reason why that succeeded to such a great degree is because it made concessions for Pagans, many of the rituals and practices in the bible are meant to cater to pagans in order to convert more of them.

Its not God, its history !

Edited by killbot1000, 24 January 2007 - 07:16 AM.

[consolation]

killbot1000, on Jan 24 2007, 08:04 PM, said:

Also, in regards to Judaism always being there...it wasn't always there, that's what I'm trying to say, we have been brainwashed into thinking that the world started with these religions, and it didnt, there was over 4 billion years of earth before these religions started, 100,000 years of human societies, and about 5,000 years of civilization. At the very best, Judaism (which was the first of these religions) started when civilization started in ancient Mesopotamia. But this does not account for the thousands of years before this when humans were worshiping nature and the like. Which brings me to my final point. Ever wonder why all these "holy word of god" religions started in the Middle East? People (for one reason or another, don't ask me why) have the urge to make things holy. If you live in a forest, the trees and the animals that give you life are holy, or the elements, etc. But the Middle east has very little nature to speak of, it is a sparse land, and you cant make the sand holy, because sand (in the context of a desert) takes away life rather than give it, therefore the only thing left to make holy is the written word, since its the only thing we have left. Its a common mythological theme that has been used in the region for thousands of years, just like nature worship has been common in many lush societies for thousands of years until the introduction of Christianity, and the only reason why that succeeded to such a great degree is because it made concessions for Pagans, many of the rituals and practices in the bible are meant to cater to pagans in order to convert more of them.

Its not God, its history !

I think it is more to do with societies developing towns and cities = no need for nature worship.  At the time the middle east was quite lush with forests etc around the tigris/euphrates rivers and the coasts. Even now, desert makes up the minor portion of the area. A similar pattern can be seen in the Eastern religions. BTW, islam, judaism, christianity are considered western religions.

Edited by consolation, 24 January 2007 - 07:48 AM.

[killbot1000]

consolation, on Jan 23 2007, 11:47 PM, said:

I think it is more to do with societies developing towns and cities = no need for nature worship.  At the time the middle east was quite lush with forests etc around the tigris/euphrates rivers and the coasts. Even now, desert makes up the minor portion of the area. A similar pattern can be seen in the Eastern religions. BTW, islam, judaism, christianity are considered western religions.

My apologies, when I meant western, I meant western Europe before the introduction of Christianity to a significant degree. But, societies and towns existed with nature warship, look at the Greek and Roman gods, pretty much all about nature. I realize the entire middle east is not a desert, however, I'm pretty sure it wasn't incredibly lush, surely more lush than it is now, and surely enough to sustain life, but I don't believe it was anything incredible.

And you bring up an interesting point about cities and societies = no need for nature worship. Couldn't one argue that in todays society with technology and science, one doesnt really need the bible or the qu'ran anymore? Isn't it a little outdated?

[yossicl]

''I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantegous to themselves... For myself, the philosophy of meaningless was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political.'' -- Aldous Huxley in Ends and Means, 1937.

[killbot1000]

yossicl, on Jan 24 2007, 03:09 PM, said:

''I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantegous to themselves... For myself, the philosophy of meaningless was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political.'' -- Aldous Huxley in Ends and Means, 1937.

and?

[consolation]

killbot1000, on Jan 25 2007, 04:44 AM, said:

My apologies, when I meant western, I meant western Europe before the introduction of Christianity to a significant degree. But, societies and towns existed with nature warship, look at the Greek and Roman gods, pretty much all about nature. I realize the entire middle east is not a desert, however, I'm pretty sure it wasn't incredibly lush, surely more lush than it is now, and surely enough to sustain life, but I don't believe it was anything incredible.

And you bring up an interesting point about cities and societies = no need for nature worship. Couldn't one argue that in todays society with technology and science, one doesnt really need the bible or the qu'ran anymore? Isn't it a little outdated?

Of the 12 major greek gods only Poseidon and Artemis are directly connected to nature. The others tend to be orientated around home/hearth and professions/culture:
courtesy of wiki...

Zeus is the highest ranking and most powerful god, the ruler of Mount Olympus, god of the sky.
Poseidon, together with Hades is one of the two next most senior gods, god of the sea, rivers and springs, floods and earthquakes.
Hera is the wife of Zeus, the goddess Queen of the heavens and stars, of marriage and fidelity.
Demeter is the goddess of the fertile earth and agriculture. Her bounty sustains mankind.
Artemis is the goddess of the hunt, animals, wilderness and the protector of young girls.
Apollo is the god of prophesy, light, music, healing, disease and medicine and archery.
Athena is the goddess of wisdom, the crafts (especially weaving, pottery and carpentry), inner beauty, education and defensive war.
Hephaestus is the god of fire, workmanship, artisans and weaponry and the craftsman of the gods.
Ares is the god of offensive war and slaughter.
Aphrodite is the goddess of love, sexuality, outer beauty and attraction.
Hermes is the god of guidance, travelers, commerce, inventions, oratory, shepherds, consolation and reunions, athletics, patron of thieves, and messenger of the Gods.
Hestia is the goddess of the home, family and the hearth.
Dionysus is the youngest of the Olympians, and the god of wine, vegetation, fertility and the theater. He alternates with Hestia in ancient lists of the twelve Olympians. Some scholars do not count Dionysus among the Olympian gods because though he is the son of Zeus, his mother was a mortal.

AFAIK the area used to be much more lush before deforestation, I seem to remember ancient assyrian murals often depict hunting scenes of tigers and antelope in forested areas.

[yossicl]

killbot1000, on Jan 25 2007, 10:04 AM, said:

and?

And this is how you (atheisms) look like…
You will say anything backward but not the truth because you don't have one.
You believe that existent of everything was creates just like that and nobody was create it.
The laws of nature, the existence of matter and energy, the existence of the sun the moon and the stars, a world that spins around in the morning and evening and so on, all of these and more are all evidence that God created them, since they couldn't just pop into being out of nothing or by chance.  Dedicate one minute of your thought to:

What would happen if….

If space didn't exist, if time didn't exist,
If the laws of nature didn't exist,
If the laws of nature weren't persistent,
If the sun didn't exist,
If a solid ground didn't exist,
If the soil wasn't fertile,
If the earth wasn't round,
If the world didn't spin every 24 hours,
If there was no atmosphere,
If there was no ozone,
If there was no oxygen
If oxygen wasn't in a certain amount,
If there was no gravity,
If water didn't exist, if water didn't circulate, if water didn't evaporate,
If water filled air didn't form rain drops,
If the temperature wasn't livable, If there no plants and no animals,

You wouldn't have dedicated one minute of your thought because…
We wouldn't be here!

We live in a literally wonderful and incredibly orderly universe.  Just as we wouldn't believe that a bunch of stones that fell out of the sky formed a pyramid, we can use our mind to understand that our incredibly orderly universe that consists of everything we need to survive was not formed on its own!

It is obvious to all that there is a creator to the universe and all life!

God implanted in all humans a sense, an intuition, to become aware of his existence.  The first thing we can understand from creation is that it has a creator.  Anyone who thinks otherwise will have to prove his words.

We all believe that our parents are truly ours, even though we don't remember our moment of birth or have a DNA test to see that they are really our parents.

The reason we believe that our parents are truly our parents is because we have no reason to think otherwise.
We look around and see an orderly world and everything in it implies of a genius creator.  What reason do we have for believing that He didn't create it and that it all happened by chance?

Other ways people use to explain the creation of the universe and life without God, are pathetic.  These are all ridicules explanations, theories that are based on coincidence, more coincidence and more coincidences that are continuations of previous coincidences.

Some people have told me that they doubt the existence of GOD, but no one has ever said he had doubt that his father is his real father.

Even if I were to come up with ways and explanations why our parents are not really our parents, chances are we would continue to believe that they are our parents, because we have nothing that has proved it otherwise.

Our father would stay our father, until proven otherwise! Even when someone might try to tell us that the world and all life were created by chance, we will not take it seriously and continue to believe in the wisdom we have come to learn from creation.

The world and life itself prove that GOD does exist!  What could someone who didn't believe possibly say to his creator once he comes face to face with him?
Could he say that the world wasn't complex enough for him to recognize its creator?  Could he say that his body wasn't planned enough for him to see the truth?  Or possibly that his human soul, his conscience, his logic didn't teach him of his purpose?

[killbot1000]

yossicl, on Jan 25 2007, 02:41 AM, said:

And this is how you (atheisms) look like…
You will say anything backward but not the truth because you don't have one.
You believe that existent of everything was creates just like that and nobody was create it.
The laws of nature, the existence of matter and energy, the existence of the sun the moon and the stars, a world that spins around in the morning and evening and so on, all of these and more are all evidence that God created them, since they couldn't just pop into being out of nothing or by chance.  Dedicate one minute of your thought to:

What would happen if….

If space didn't exist, if time didn't exist,
If the laws of nature didn't exist,
If the laws of nature weren't persistent,
If the sun didn't exist,
If a solid ground didn't exist,
If the soil wasn't fertile,
If the earth wasn't round,
If the world didn't spin every 24 hours,
If there was no atmosphere,
If there was no ozone,
If there was no oxygen
If oxygen wasn't in a certain amount,
If there was no gravity,
If water didn't exist, if water didn't circulate, if water didn't evaporate,
If water filled air didn't form rain drops,
If the temperature wasn't livable, If there no plants and no animals,

You wouldn't have dedicated one minute of your thought because…
We wouldn't be here!

We live in a literally wonderful and incredibly orderly universe.  Just as we wouldn't believe that a bunch of stones that fell out of the sky formed a pyramid, we can use our mind to understand that our incredibly orderly universe that consists of everything we need to survive was not formed on its own!

It is obvious to all that there is a creator to the universe and all life!

God implanted in all humans a sense, an intuition, to become aware of his existence.  The first thing we can understand from creation is that it has a creator.  Anyone who thinks otherwise will have to prove his words.

We all believe that our parents are truly ours, even though we don't remember our moment of birth or have a DNA test to see that they are really our parents.

The reason we believe that our parents are truly our parents is because we have no reason to think otherwise.
We look around and see an orderly world and everything in it implies of a genius creator.  What reason do we have for believing that He didn't create it and that it all happened by chance?

Other ways people use to explain the creation of the universe and life without God, are pathetic.  These are all ridicules explanations, theories that are based on coincidence, more coincidence and more coincidences that are continuations of previous coincidences.

Some people have told me that they doubt the existence of GOD, but no one has ever said he had doubt that his father is his real father.

Even if I were to come up with ways and explanations why our parents are not really our parents, chances are we would continue to believe that they are our parents, because we have nothing that has proved it otherwise.

Our father would stay our father, until proven otherwise! Even when someone might try to tell us that the world and all life were created by chance, we will not take it seriously and continue to believe in the wisdom we have come to learn from creation.

The world and life itself prove that GOD does exist!  What could someone who didn't believe possibly say to his creator once he comes face to face with him?
Could he say that the world wasn't complex enough for him to recognize its creator?  Could he say that his body wasn't planned enough for him to see the truth?  Or possibly that his human soul, his conscience, his logic didn't teach him of his purpose?

First of all, don't tell me what I think. When it comes to the universe, and creation and all that bull {censored}, I very much try to take the position "I don't know the answer, and I'm pretty sure that I'm never going to find out". I try not to assume anything.

Theists assume everything, the whole idea is riddled with contradictions, ignorance, and assumptions.

Many theists would use the Causal argument to explain god's existance.

1. Everything has a cause.
2. Nothing causes itself.
3. [so} Everything is caused by something else.
4. If everything is caused by something else, then either (a) there is an infinite series of causes or ( there is a first cause.
5. There isn’t an infinite series of causes.
6. [So] there is a first cause.
7. [So] God exists.

There are many problems with this argument however. The first and most glaring problem is that lines 1 and 6 contradict each other (Everything has a cause & There is a first cause). Now if everything has a cause and theres a first cause, that would mean that the first cause doesn't have cause which means that the lines contradict.

The world and the universe are only orderly to us because we're suited to it, if the earth had turned out differently (different temperatures and chemical makeup, but still able to support life) than we wouldn't be humans, we would be something else suited to that world, and we would be shouting at the top of our lungs (or gills, whichever the case may be) at how orderly and perfect our universe is. Don't you understand, we wouldn't be humans, we would be something else, suited to a different environment. The simple fact that everything works so well, totally points to evolution as a real scientific theory.

Speaking of which, that's another word theists have a hard time grasping most of the time. A theory is not a hypothesis, it is a series of FACTS that when put together form a theory. A hypothesis is just an educated guess. Theories have experimentation and evidence to back them up.

God is an assumption, and assumptions are dangerous if they are not carefully analyzed, blind faith and devotion is dangerous too.

Your argument about the parents/god thing pretty much shatters due to these reasons.

You're right, I don't have any reason to doubt that my parents are really my parents, whether I remember my early days or not, day in and day out, I saw them every morning and they fed me and clothed me, so by simple logic of putting the pieces together I can see that they are my parents (whether I am related to them or not). God is different though, nobody sees god, and if they say they do, they are crazy... There is plenty of evidence to suggest that "his" word in the bible is false, there are many fallacies in the bible, to many to count, and you're saying this word is perfect? This is where ignorance comes in, because people choose to believe it, even when rational fact has proven otherwise, it kind of makes me sick.

You say I don't tell the truth, you say i tell lies? No, I'm telling the only truth I know, facts and logic. You're trying to pose faith as fact, which its not. If you were true to your religion at all, you wouldn't need any evidence to validate it, you wouldn't need to defend yourself against what I say. But you do, further proving to me, and to anybody with half a brain that this idea is outdated and unneeded and to be quite frank, dangerous in this kind of world...seriously think about it.

And finally, I'm not saying that the world is meaningless, you can find meaning in anything, you just have to put yourself in a different frame of mind. All I'm saying is that I don't know the meaning, and that's ok...

Edited by killbot1000, 25 January 2007 - 07:53 PM.

[killbot1000]

consolation, on Jan 24 2007, 11:27 PM, said:

Of the 12 major greek gods only Poseidon and Artemis are directly connected to nature. The others tend to be orientated around home/hearth and professions/culture:
courtesy of wiki...

Zeus is the highest ranking and most powerful god, the ruler of Mount Olympus, god of the sky.
Poseidon, together with Hades is one of the two next most senior gods, god of the sea, rivers and springs, floods and earthquakes.
Hera is the wife of Zeus, the goddess Queen of the heavens and stars, of marriage and fidelity.
Demeter is the goddess of the fertile earth and agriculture. Her bounty sustains mankind.
Artemis is the goddess of the hunt, animals, wilderness and the protector of young girls.
Apollo is the god of prophesy, light, music, healing, disease and medicine and archery.
Athena is the goddess of wisdom, the crafts (especially weaving, pottery and carpentry), inner beauty, education and defensive war.
Hephaestus is the god of fire, workmanship, artisans and weaponry and the craftsman of the gods.
Ares is the god of offensive war and slaughter.
Aphrodite is the goddess of love, sexuality, outer beauty and attraction.
Hermes is the god of guidance, travelers, commerce, inventions, oratory, shepherds, consolation and reunions, athletics, patron of thieves, and messenger of the Gods.
Hestia is the goddess of the home, family and the hearth.
Dionysus is the youngest of the Olympians, and the god of wine, vegetation, fertility and the theater. He alternates with Hestia in ancient lists of the twelve Olympians. Some scholars do not count Dionysus among the Olympian gods because though he is the son of Zeus, his mother was a mortal.

AFAIK the area used to be much more lush before deforestation, I seem to remember ancient assyrian murals often depict hunting scenes of tigers and antelope in forested areas.

But you see, all of this IS nature. The sea, fertility, the sky, the moon, war, slaughter, home, wine, vegetation, fertile earth. Its all nature, its as natural as you can get...

Christianity in comparison spouts off about Jesus and God all day and pretty much leaves the nature equivalent out of it. Even when nature is used, its a back door to god. For example, Noah's Ark. The earth was flooded BECAUSE the world was sinful or whatever. In that case, instead of being about nature it was about god.

There will be exceptions to any rule. All I'm saying is that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam do nothing new, all of the themes in these religions are common mythological themes that have existed in the middle east for thousands of years. The whole good/evil, God/Devil, Heaven/Hell theme come from Zorroastrianism, a religion that had a much greater emphasis on good vs evil than Judaism did at the time. It is just a common mythological theme, that's all I'm trying to say.

[yossicl]

killbot1000, on Jan 25 2007, 11:45 PM, said:

First of all, don't tell me what I think. When it comes to the universe, and creation and all that bull {censored}, I very much try to take the position "I don't know the answer, and I'm pretty sure that I'm never going to find out". I try not to assume anything.

Theists assume everything, the whole idea is riddled with contradictions, ignorance, and assumptions.

Many theists would use the Causal argument to explain god's existance.

1. Everything has a cause.
2. Nothing causes itself.
3. [so} Everything is caused by something else.
4. If everything is caused by something else, then either (a) there is an infinite series of causes or ( there is a first cause.
5. There isn’t an infinite series of causes.
6. [So] there is a first cause.
7. [So] God exists.

There are many problems with this argument however. The first and most glaring problem is that lines 1 and 6 contradict each other (Everything has a cause & There is a first cause). Now if everything has a cause and theres a first cause, that would mean that the first cause doesn't have cause which means that the lines contradict.

The world and the universe are only orderly to us because we're suited to it, if the earth had turned out differently (different temperatures and chemical makeup, but still able to support life) than we wouldn't be humans, we would be something else suited to that world, and we would be shouting at the top of our lungs (or gills, whichever the case may be) at how orderly and perfect our universe is. Don't you understand, we wouldn't be humans, we would be something else, suited to a different environment. The simple fact that everything works so well, totally points to evolution as a real scientific theory.

Speaking of which, that's another word theists have a hard time grasping most of the time. A theory is not a hypothesis, it is a series of FACTS that when put together form a theory. A hypothesis is just an educated guess. Theories have experimentation and evidence to back them up.

God is an assumption, and assumptions are dangerous if they are not carefully analyzed, blind faith and devotion is dangerous too.

Your argument about the parents/god thing pretty much shatters due to these reasons.

You're right, I don't have any reason to doubt that my parents are really my parents, whether I remember my early days or not, day in and day out, I saw them every morning and they fed me and clothed me, so by simple logic of putting the pieces together I can see that they are my parents (whether I am related to them or not). God is different though, nobody sees god, and if they say they do, they are crazy... There is plenty of evidence to suggest that "his" word in the bible is false, there are many fallacies in the bible, to many to count, and you're saying this word is perfect? This is where ignorance comes in, because people choose to believe it, even when rational fact has proven otherwise, it kind of makes me sick.

You say I don't tell the truth, you say i tell lies? No, I'm telling the only truth I know, facts and logic. You're trying to pose faith as fact, which its not. If you were true to your religion at all, you wouldn't need any evidence to validate it, you wouldn't need to defend yourself against what I say. But you do, further proving to me, and to anybody with half a brain that this idea is outdated and unneeded and to be quite frank, dangerous in this kind of world...seriously think about it.

And finally, I'm not saying that the world is meaningless, you can find meaning in anything, you just have to put yourself in a different frame of mind. All I'm saying is that I don't know the meaning, and that's ok...

Evidence of the existence of God exists in millions...
Anyone learning on the human body and its different mechanisms, is mind-boggled from the complex yet efficient way the human body works.
The human body consists of such complex mechanisms, that it is impossible to say that they were created without a plan.  Just look at how much wisdom there is in the living.

The human eye...

Two eyes at the top of our heads, like two cameras seeing in three dimensions.  Ears so we can hear and voice glands so we can speak.  A brain to think and understand, and hands so we can write and hold.
  In each of our nose nostrils there are approximately 10,000 different sensory receptors, and our brain cultivates these signals and remembers each and every particular odor.

It is a well-known fact, that water can in time destroy even the hardest rock.  If so, how is it that the human teeth which can break from the slightest blow, are able to survive in the human mouth for over 5 decades?
How is it that the human teeth do not crumble and disappear over the years, not to mention sea creatures, shark scales or a snails shell.

It turns out that teeth are covered by a protective structure called the enamel, which helps to prevent cavities on the teeth.  The layer beneath the enamel is called dentin, which is a softer, yellow-hued material.  The dentin is pulled into the root, which is how the tooth is held to the jaw.

Beneath the dentin is the pulp and other tissues, blood vessels and nerves imbedded in the bony jaw, which lead oxygen and food substances into the tooth!  Just look at how much genius is put into the planning of one seemingly simple tooth!

Everyone gets cut and bruised several times in their lives.  How is it that you don't just bleed and bleed till there's nothing left?
Well, it turns out that when the human body loses blood through a wound, a certain liquid (containing platelets) is carried to the area of the wound, which cause the blood to clot so that the bleeding stops.

Without blood platelets, you would bleed to death.  A greater wonder still, is the fact that the blood itself doesn't clot in the body.

Human beings are able to digest hard-to-process kinds of meat such as beef by using digestive acids.  But, the human stomach itself is a kind of meat.  How come the stomach doesn't digest itself?  Luckily for us, a living stomach has ways to protect itself from itself, by producing layers of mucus that prevent it from self-digesting.

The human heart beats two milliard times during the average 70 years of the human life.  A car engine doesn't survive for more than 10 years without malfunction, yet the human heart doesn't require any kind of maintenance.  Even an artificial heart doesn't function for more than a few years.

And how much wisdom is in the fact that the heart "knows" it needs to begin beating twice as fast when we are physically active, and even though we get tired, the heart doesn't stop for even a second.  Even the human liver filters approximately one liter of blood per minute!

The intestines are the body's factories, which never go wrong.  They transform the food you eat into the nutrients our body requires, sends them to the different parts of the body, and filter out harmful substances or wastes.
The kidneys balance the volume of fluids and minerals in the body, and filter the wastes.

An iron engine cannot function for long without maintenance.  How does the human body, which is made out of soft flesh able to live for such a long time without stopping?  It is truly a miracle!

A mosquito as evidence of the existence of God!

Mosquitoes bite in order to suck blood out of our flesh, however when one is first bitten there is no instant reaction.  How come?  As it turns out, when a mosquito bites a human, it first injects saliva and anti-coagulants.  Only when they ware off, do we feel the pain.

Evidence of the existence of God exists in millions!

Quote

...If you were true to your religion at all, you wouldn't need any evidence to validate it, you wouldn't need to defend yourself against what I say. But you do...

Personally I don't need any evidence to validate it... While you are closing your eyes you make yourself ignorance, so personally I'm committed to open your blind eyes...

Edited by yossicl, 25 January 2007 - 10:37 PM.

[killbot1000]

yossicl, on Jan 25 2007, 02:28 PM, said:

Evidence of the existence of God exists in millions...
Anyone learning on the human body and its different mechanisms, is mind-boggled from the complex yet efficient way the human body works.
The human body consists of such complex mechanisms, that it is impossible to say that they were created without a plan.  Just look at how much wisdom there is in the living.

The human eye...

Two eyes at the top of our heads, like two cameras seeing in three dimensions.  Ears so we can hear and voice glands so we can speak.  A brain to think and understand, and hands so we can write and hold.
  In each of our nose nostrils there are approximately 10,000 different sensory receptors, and our brain cultivates these signals and remembers each and every particular odor.

It is a well-known fact, that water can in time destroy even the hardest rock.  If so, how is it that the human teeth which can break from the slightest blow, are able to survive in the human mouth for over 5 decades?
How is it that the human teeth do not crumble and disappear over the years, not to mention sea creatures, shark scales or a snails shell.

It turns out that teeth are covered by a protective structure called the enamel, which helps to prevent cavities on the teeth.  The layer beneath the enamel is called dentin, which is a softer, yellow-hued material.  The dentin is pulled into the root, which is how the tooth is held to the jaw.

Beneath the dentin is the pulp and other tissues, blood vessels and nerves imbedded in the bony jaw, which lead oxygen and food substances into the tooth!  Just look at how much genius is put into the planning of one seemingly simple tooth!

Everyone gets cut and bruised several times in their lives.  How is it that you don't just bleed and bleed till there's nothing left?
Well, it turns out that when the human body loses blood through a wound, a certain liquid (containing platelets) is carried to the area of the wound, which cause the blood to clot so that the bleeding stops.

Without blood platelets, you would bleed to death.  A greater wonder still, is the fact that the blood itself doesn't clot in the body.

Human beings are able to digest hard-to-process kinds of meat such as beef by using digestive acids.  But, the human stomach itself is a kind of meat.  How come the stomach doesn't digest itself?  Luckily for us, a living stomach has ways to protect itself from itself, by producing layers of mucus that prevent it from self-digesting.

The human heart beats two milliard times during the average 70 years of the human life.  A car engine doesn't survive for more than 10 years without malfunction, yet the human heart doesn't require any kind of maintenance.  Even an artificial heart doesn't function for more than a few years.

And how much wisdom is in the fact that the heart "knows" it needs to begin beating twice as fast when we are physically active, and even though we get tired, the heart doesn't stop for even a second.  Even the human liver filters approximately one liter of blood per minute!

The intestines are the body's factories, which never go wrong.  They transform the food you eat into the nutrients our body requires, sends them to the different parts of the body, and filter out harmful substances or wastes.
The kidneys balance the volume of fluids and minerals in the body, and filter the wastes.

An iron engine cannot function for long without maintenance.  How does the human body, which is made out of soft flesh able to live for such a long time without stopping?  It is truly a miracle!

A mosquito as evidence of the existence of God!

Mosquitoes bite in order to suck blood out of our flesh, however when one is first bitten there is no instant reaction.  How come?  As it turns out, when a mosquito bites a human, it first injects saliva and anti-coagulants.  Only when they ware off, do we feel the pain.

Evidence of the existence of God exists in millions!
Personally I don't need any evidence to validate it... While you are closing your eyes you make yourself ignorance, so personally I'm committed to open your blind eyes...

I'm the blind one? Maybe you need to sit there and think for a little bit.

I don't understand how evidence of the existence of god is calculated in number of evidence...that kind of doesn't make any sense. Seriously please, study a little history and study a little science, and I think you'll find that those Millions of pieces of evidence for God's existence can be reduced considerably when rational thought is applied.

I am not blind. If anything you are the one who is blind because you assume to know that there is a god, and assume to know how everything was created. Well I'm proud to say that I don't know, and I want to know the REAL reason why things happen. That does NOT make me blind...

[yossicl]

killbot1000, on Jan 26 2007, 02:47 AM, said:

I'm the blind one? Maybe you need to sit there and think for a little bit.

I don't understand how evidence of the existence of god is calculated in number of evidence...that kind of doesn't make any sense. Seriously please, study a little history and study a little science, and I think you'll find that those Millions of pieces of evidence for God's existence can be reduced considerably when rational thought is applied.

I am not blind. If anything you are the one who is blind because you assume to know that there is a god, and assume to know how everything was created. Well I'm proud to say that I don't know, and I want to know the REAL reason why things happen. That does NOT make me blind...

Did you see something in my post saying "I know everything"?!?!?
The different between me and you is that you believe that existent of everything was creates just like that and nobody was create it, but since they couldn't just pop into being out of nothing or by chance, I do believe GOD create them all.
Oh, and I wish I know one percent of everything that's would satisfy me…

[yossicl]

AcePlayer, on Jan 22 2007, 04:07 AM, said:

I've been out of this for a while so excuse me if i misunderstand anything.
Ok correct me if I'm wrong but in history didn't Moses leave the jews for a few days and then returns to find that they've all completely forgot all of his teachings and their God and instead erected another (a cow out of all bleeding thing)?

If you can completely forget the teachings of Moses in a matter of days and then go off in your own paths (to doom i guess) then what is there to say that  you're not on another path to doom? I mean if you couldn't even be left for a few days without getting up to mischief then how do you expect any of us to believe you've been following his teachings for 3500 years?

And remember Moses supposedly saved you all with a miracle of the splitting of the river? If you can forget all his teachings even after a miracle you all witnessed, then there's no chance for you all.

AcePlayer, this one of the ridiculous and stupid thing I ever read.
My forefather was a slave under Egypt more then 260 years and when GOD gets them out of Egypt there was also mixed multitude (Egyptian's pagans) went up also with them which is mean they was not an Hebrews and which is mean they sin and not the children of Israel.
(Exodus 12,37) And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, beside children. (Exodus 12,38) And a mixed multitude went up also with them…

Btw, it was take about 2100 year (not 30 days) till your pagans forefather start to believe in GOD after my forefather …

Hazwan, do us a favor, get yourself a life…

[consolation]

killbot1000, on Jan 26 2007, 08:52 AM, said:

But you see, all of this IS nature. The sea, fertility, the sky, the moon, war, slaughter, home, wine, vegetation, fertile earth. Its all nature, its as natural as you can get...

Christianity in comparison spouts off about Jesus and God all day and pretty much leaves the nature equivalent out of it. Even when nature is used, its a back door to god. For example, Noah's Ark. The earth was flooded BECAUSE the world was sinful or whatever. In that case, instead of being about nature it was about god.

There will be exceptions to any rule. All I'm saying is that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam do nothing new, all of the themes in these religions are common mythological themes that have existed in the middle east for thousands of years. The whole good/evil, God/Devil, Heaven/Hell theme come from Zorroastrianism, a religion that had a much greater emphasis on good vs evil than Judaism did at the time. It is just a common mythological theme, that's all I'm trying to say.

I know what you are saying but; I think that it only looks like nature worship from a 3000+ year perspective. Remember that at the time agriculture was high tech and war was industry.  The sky was inhabited by divine beings which controlled your fate etc... Most of the beings associated directly with nature (like Dryads, Nymphs, Satyrs) etc were immortal but hardly divine in true sense of the word; remnants of the previous animist form of religion. They were mostly things out to trick and lead men astray.  It's been a while ago since I read any, but I seem to remember that greek lit. sees nature as something to be overcome and conquered.

Anyhow, my undergrad classics were a long time ago so I'll just stop in case I'm putting my foot in my mouth lol

Back to the topic of yossicle ranting about God's plan for the master race  

Edited by consolation, 26 January 2007 - 02:17 AM.