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Why are we obligated to be Patriotic?


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First of all I want to start by saying that the USA was a good country to grow up in. I had friends, food, money (for fun), etc. Everybody seemed like decent people and while the government was at least somewhat corrupt it seemed to be at least somewhat doing its job. I could see why people would be proud of this country, there are many things that Americans should be thankful for.

 

But I am losing faith in my country. I am not mad at the politicians, the media, or anything else socially constructed. I am mad at the American people. People call me "unpatriotic" for pointing out our country's follies. Whenever I have any criticism about any issue and I am saying to anybody who is not specifically my friend, I am told that I am just being paranoid, or that I hate America or something. This is not true, I WANT to love this country, this is where I grew up, this is where I came from. But all I have seen in recent years is people taking it up the ass from the man. Nobody is fighting, nobody is even talking about the issues that will really affect them, everybody's wings are effectively clipped.

 

Washington DC will soon be a police state in which one will not be able to enter or leave troubled neighborhoods unless they either live there, or have official business there (whether they work there or are visiting family, etc.) The police/military will check the ID's of anybody entering or leaving these neighborhoods. It is put up as an effort to "keep people safe". The only problem is that the kid gangbanging is seen the same as the kid coming home from choir practice. Not to mention, its unconstitutional. But the Attorney General of Washington DC doesn't seem to think so, he says that this has been used in many cities successfully before, but couldn't name a single one.

 

http://dcist.com/2008/06/04/mpd_to_seal_off.php

 

We spy on our own citizens, we pass the patriot act, we provide RETROACTIVE IMMUNITY for corporations that break the law by spying on us, the FBI is trying to get their hands into internet traffic so they can look at everything we do any time they want. Joblessness is at an all time high, our tax dollars are being used to fund war while our streets, hospitals, and infrastructure slowly crumbles, people continue not to act. In fact when I bring any of this up, the response I typically get is "well, theres a lot of bad neighborhoods in Washington DC". These people make me sick. The America that I love is gone.

 

THESE HORRIBLE THINGS ARE HAPPENING BECAUSE WE LET THEM HAPPEN!

 

We sit, watch TV, drink alcohol, work all day, remain numb to what's going on around us, we lay down and take anything that is shoved down our throats. All of these problems would disappear overnight if people got up and did something! I march, I protest, I write letters all the time. It doesn't do {censored}, and it wont unless all of us do it. Unless all of us come together for our common goal, corruption and evil will continue to infiltrate our lives. If this country was still America, people would fight for, and possibly die for their beliefs. We would rise up and kick this government in the face. What the hell is wrong with us? America is dead.

 

This government is not acting in the best interests of the people and it hasn't been for some time. Why should we have one shred of loyalty to it?

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Because of how large and what a world power the US is, its hard to feel the same kind of nationalism someone from Morocco or Portugal would feel. To many people, the US is the world. The kind of southern or NYC pride people feel is much more similar to nationalism around the world. Anyway, I think that partially explains the blind patriotism, because its harder to be truly patriotic towards the US than say towards Serbia.

 

That D.C. neighborhood bit is appalling. It disgusts me that thats even occurring, and that I haven't heard of it!

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"The TRUE DUTY of a PATRIOT is to protect his country from his government." - Thomas Paine

 

People are brainwashed, thinking that supporting a corrupt government that has HiJacked our country is patriotic. Which in fact, it is just the opposite.

 

If you want to know what the spirit of the US really is, watch the live video on the Builderberg link. There are over 200 people out there, right now, exposing the scum that run the world. You need to go watch it.

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Because of how large and what a world power the US is, its hard to feel the same kind of nationalism someone from Morocco or Portugal would feel.

 

Wasn't one of the points of the United States to avoid this type of nationalism?

 

Personally I feel that more of the world needs the representative government that we enjoy here. Many see these regional blocks like the European Union being the next stage. Our american government model has a pretty good history. It may be falling apart now--a little too national.

 

Patroitism is a good love when it remains at its proper level.

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Personally I feel that more of the world needs the representative government that we enjoy here. Many see these regional blocks like the European Union being the next stage. Our american government model has a pretty good history. It may be falling apart now--a little too national.

 

 

I think that is a really good point. States used to be pretty self-governing. The federal government has wrested quite a bit of power from the states, and have passed blanket laws that don't help every part of the country, and we no longer have the power to really make our own laws as we see fit in different parts of the country.

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If there is a lesson in all of this it is that our Constitution is neither a self-actuating nor a self-correcting document. It requires the constant attention and devotion of all citizens. There is a story, often told, that upon exiting the Constitutional Convention Benjamin Franklin was approached by a group of citizens asking what sort of government the delegates had created. His answer was: "A republic, if you can keep it." The brevity of that response should not cause us to under-value its essential meaning: democratic republics are not merely founded upon the consent of the people, they are also absolutely dependent upon the active and informed involvement of the people for their continued good health.

 

http://www.constitutioncenter.org/explore/...CanKeepIt.shtml

 

Wow, I actually agree with you killbot. Well, mostly anyway. :) One could argue that because, in fact, you question your government and are appalled by some of it's acts, that people like you and I are more patriotic than the naysayers, by virtue of the fact that we recognize the corruption occurring and wish to rectify it. While you and I might disagree about the direction from which the correct action should come, i.e.- liberal or conservative, we both care about our country enough to be distressed by the changes occurring and want to do something about it. I'd even be personally willing to compromise and take a more moderate stance, if I thought I would be met halfway.

 

Though, as a conservative, I must point out that the decline of the country these past few decades could be equated to the rise of the liberal ideology, and the departure from "Under God."

 

Just fueling the debate :)

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I've never understood the blind patrioticness most Americans have. Being loyal to ones country is great. But loyalty and blindly agreeing to whatever your country does or says is different.

 

It doesn't matter where I'm from, USA, Japan or Saudi Arabia, if my country is failing me I'm going to slowly stop loving it. Just because I was born on this patch of God's land doesn't mean the state owns me or my love. But that's the idea I get from Americans I'm sorry to say. You're unpatriotic if you're against the Iraq war. You're unpatriotic if you don't agree with the Patriotic Act (what a name to use). You're unpatriotic if you don't kiss your leaders ass as much as the rest of your town. It's really a joke.

 

I don't consider myself as British as I used to. Why? Because the UK has done a lot I disagree with and I can't stand up and feel proud for my country as I once could. Further more you have loonies like that BNP who've hijacked the term British for their own perverted reasons. What I do consider myself is a Londoner. Because I'm proud of my city and what it's given me. However I consider myself still loyal who wants the best for his country.

 

What I love about the UK is you are asked to be a law-abiding citizen. Not a zombie that has to wake up every morning and kiss the Union Jack and hang it outside his house. Otherwise there must be something wrong with you. I love that I'm given the freedom (which is fading away) to question anything and everything here and not have someone accuse me of hating Britain. You might get that from people in the north, I don't know, but not in London.

 

Being able to questions ones country and if you're not happy with, to be able to express it, is a RIGHT.

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"The TRUE DUTY of a PATRIOT is to protect his country from his government." - Thomas Paine

 

When Thomas Paine was alive that Patriotism and support actually had some heartfelt spirit and proper support to it. All we do these days is get really drunk on the 4th of July and then look at some blurry fireworks since you had one too many. We don't really respect what our founding fathers did that day, and if I told this to any typical teenager the response would have simply been something like this; "that's {censored}, fireworks are better" [douchebag voice]. I don't know but people are wrecking America and they keep putting the blame on others without looking at one's self.

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I think that is a really good point. States used to be pretty self-governing. The federal government has wrested quite a bit of power from the states, and have passed blanket laws that don't help every part of the country, and we no longer have the power to really make our own laws as we see fit in different parts of the country.

 

You are %100 correct.

 

What we have now, is a disgrace compared to the founders' vision.

 

Patriotism, is not waving flags for your candidate, or woshiping that candidate. Patriotism is asking the candidate you voted for, why he voted on a law to oppress you, or violated his oath in office. I will never follow any damned global elites, and reguardless of your political stance, we should all be out there bringing these dragons to their knees.

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Though, as a conservative, I must point out that the decline of the country these past few decades could be equated to the rise of the liberal ideology, and the departure from "Under God."

 

Just fueling the debate :unsure:

 

Thank you!!!!!

Come on people. If you do not want more government, don't vote for the "Big Government" party.

We now have the least effective congress in the history of this country, and if you will notice, the left side is bigger than the right. And to top it all off, a great number wants to install a president who preaches "Change". The changes he wants to make are simply taking this GREAT country further into liberal ideology.

I do not understand. This is the best country in the world, and yet there are people who want to change it not for the better, but to make it like the many failed models of history, and today.

I am pissed also, but it could be from a differing point of view than some.

God bless America!

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Patriotism is love for ones own country (or entity). It is like how you love your child... or dog or whoever. Even when they pee on your favorite recliner chair.

 

I am not american, so I look at USA from the outside. USA is moving away from its core values. Slowly but it is. You are supposed to contest anyones opinion over there, and I think you still are, but I find the diversity is diminishing. The federal ruling is a two-party system, where each core values are getting closer for each election. Unification is not necessarily bad, but there seem to be a big share of the population who are in discord with the "ruling class".

 

And what are USA so afraid of? There is no need for a new terrorist attack on USA. Its own protective measures are a day to day reminder of what may happen, so the entire population are on alert and frightened every day. And lookup the definition of terror and terrorism...

 

Anyway - just remember, there are worser places than USA, just don't forget to keep on fighting against ending like one of those. That is one of USA's strength, you have the right to disagree with the government.

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Though, as a conservative, I must point out that the decline of the country these past few decades could be equated to the rise of the liberal ideology, and the departure from "Under God."

 

Just fueling the debate :)

 

Please understand that that "under god" was never the intentions of our founding fathers. Many were in fact quite adamant about the separation of church and state. "under god" is a relatively recent aberration.

 

I would argue that this race to christianize our country has done far more damage than any "liberal" ideology. Formation of the US was a very liberal ideology at the time. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, and many others, were all in pursuit of utopia. Certainly a liberal quest.

 

Now as far as recent events go, I think Benjamin Franklin said it best: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

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It's not that people feel obligated to be patriotic, it is just hard to argue against something that works 99% of the time.

 

This government is not perfect, we all know it, but it is one of the best the world has ever seen.

 

Yes, we pay taxes. Yes, sometimes it gets wasted on {censored} like iPods. But the majority of it does get spent on good useful things. The entire Lake County, FL school system had every high school in the county rebuilt during the last 5 years. That is 8 brand new / renovated high schools in one of the largest growing communities in the nation. Everywhere I go there are new roads being built. So I can't really complain about paying taxes. There is a system, and how it is done to fairly tax everyone according to their income. Yes, believe it or not, the average American is not getting ripped off. Bill Gates is paying a lot of taxes...

 

Yes, school budgets have been cut. But this year, my wife's sister was in school from August 2 to June 6. That is the longest I have every heard of in my life. The money to pay teachers, faculty, and everything else is coming from somewhere. That must also mean more is getting taught. I just graduated from a public high school in May of 2006, and although I do believe my senior year was a complete waste, I feel I got my worth out of high school. I currently have a 3.94 GPA at an accredited public university, University of Central Florida (top 10 university in business), and I am also enjoying my education there. I do not believe the level of quality of public schools are decreasing, I just believe the level of knowledge of the general public is increasing due to things like the internet.

 

Yes, politicians are corrupt. But we forget that politicians were raised just like us. They are normal citizens who were elected by the people of the United States to represent them in government. Statistically, there is always a few bad apples. Most politicians are good standing representatives in the eyes of the people who support and elect them.

 

Just a few things I have noticed. And if you tune out the people who are very extreme about this kind of stuff, JontheSavage, there is really nothing wrong, except for the perception that most of us have because we live in a world were Perez Hilton, TMZ, and MTV are considered news outlets....

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Please understand that that "under god" was never the intentions of our founding fathers. Many were in fact quite adamant about the separation of church and state. "under god" is a relatively recent aberration.

 

I would argue that this race to christianize our country has done far more damage than any "liberal" ideology. Formation of the US was a very liberal ideology at the time. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, and many others, were all in pursuit of utopia. Certainly a liberal quest.

 

Now as far as recent events go, I think Benjamin Franklin said it best: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 

Whether or not that is true, they still included mention of "the Creator" in the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, AND the Constitution. They themselves MAY (I'm not conceding that point) have been liberal Atheists, as you say, but they still built this country on a Judeo-Christian foundation, because they recognized it as the one providing the fairest and most equal base.

 

Let's break it down: What religion has an equal beginning for all people? The answer is Christianity. The reason is simple, because according to Christianity we are all created equally in the image of God. Gender and race don't matter to the Christian god.

 

Now, the Muslim god, Allah? According to the Quran, Allah has no image. You think women will have rights under Muslim law? It takes two women to testify against one man under Muslim law. It's acceptable to beat your wife if she disobeys you under Muslim law. Women are property under Muslim law. Under Muslim law, perpetrators of homosexuality are to be executed. The list here goes on and on.

 

Hinduism? Multiple Gods, which one were humans created in the image of?

 

Buddism? Every individual is a god, and every person is unique, which precludes equality.

 

Atheism? What's equal there, besides the meaninglessness of life? Besides, Atheism seems to be more of a stopgap. Before the French Atheist Revolution occurred, the vast majority of the French were Christian.. You might remember from your history: That was back when they had BALLS. Then they had their little revolution and the majority became Atheist. But that was just an invitation for the Muslims to creep in, and now the majority of people in France (and most of Europe) are Muslim. And the Muslims are lobbying to impose Sharia law..

 

Christian nations are strong, but Atheist nations eventually fall to Islam ("Submission") because the Muslims move in to fill the vacuum left by honoring no God, and thereby take a country over.

 

I realise this was strictly off topic, but I wanted to rebutt Brainbone :-p

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When Thomas Paine was alive that Patriotism and support actually had some heartfelt spirit and proper support to it. All we do these days is get really drunk on the 4th of July and then look at some blurry fireworks since you had one too many. We don't really respect what our founding fathers did that day, and if I told this to any typical teenager the response would have simply been something like this; "that's {censored}, fireworks are better" [douchebag voice]. I don't know but people are wrecking America and they keep putting the blame on others without looking at one's self.

 

Bravo! I am glad there are people with sense still out there...

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Now as far as recent events go, I think Benjamin Franklin said it best: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 

They were nothing like the liberals that you know today. The liberals of today, are a perversion of what our forefather stood for. Today's liberals, neo-libs, just want nothing more than to destroy the Constitution & Bill of Rights, the same as the neo-cons. Both are a disgrace, a foul stinch, and, in their own selfishness, pervert their words to fit their personal wishes, and desires.

 

If I were going to classify my stance, as a measurement of what I am, it would be classical liberal, paleo-conservative, or liberatarian. The most accurate, however, would be Jeffersonian. Our family is descended from Madison, so if I had to guess, I would say it is in my blood.

 

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/..._jefferson.html

 

Dark, most of them were Freemasons. Freemasons of that time, acknoledged Christ, and in Christ's teachings of "Love thy neighbor as thyself", it inspired them to create equality, and freedom of religion. If you read Jefferson's writings, you will find that he stood for God, however, he did not stand for any specific Church, per se. He understood the Bible, and was a man of principals based upon it, and history leading up from it.

 

After May 1st, 1776, the Freemasons were infiltrated by the Illuminati, when it was formed. This was the case with Hamilton, a Rothschild agent, which is why he was killed by Burr. Most of our forefathers knew who they were, and tried to kill them off. Most of them escaped back to London, and Scottland before they were all captured, and tried.

 

The Freemasons today, are a perversion of what they were. They don't exist anymore really.

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^*sigh* I know you didn't just bring up the supposed Freemason/Illuminati conspiracy

 

On the other hand, there are some great Jefferson quotes on that link:

 

Jefferson's thoughts on entitlement programs:

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

^*WAVES @ KILLBOT

 

This one seems appropriate, given our current congress:

If the present Congress errs in too much talking, how can it be otherwise in a body to which the people send one hundred and fifty lawyers, whose trade it is to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour?
The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind.

 

Regarding the national debt:

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.

 

On waging war:

It is our duty still to endeavor to avoid war; but if it shall actually take place, no matter by whom brought on, we must defend ourselves. If our house be on fire, without inquiring whether it was fired from within or without, we must try to extinguish it.

 

On Big Government:

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.

 

On foreign policy:

Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted.
Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

 

On global warming:

The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the tracts which favor that theory.

 

Ok ok, I'm done

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^*sigh* I know you didn't just bring up the supposed Freemason/Illuminati conspiracy

 

It is a conspiratory fact. They were formed May 1st 1776. They are the Legion of doom on steroids.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

 

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2...070608Jones.htm - its going on right now, as I type.

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One should not bring up religion, and at least not that utter nonsense dark4181 is preaching. The problem in USA is that people really mostly are satisfied, no need to fight for anything. They have their panem et circenses like the romans and do not realize that they are losing their liberty grain by grain...

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One should not bring up religion, and at least not that utter nonsense dark4181 is preaching. The problem in USA is that people really mostly are satisfied, no need to fight for anything. They have their panem et circenses like the romans and do not realize that they are losing their liberty grain by grain...

 

Well I never thought of it that way. But what would the solution be, take away privileges and go rampage?

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One should not bring up religion, and at least not that utter nonsense dark4181 is preaching. The problem in USA is that people really mostly are satisfied, no need to fight for anything. They have their panem et circenses like the romans and do not realize that they are losing their liberty grain by grain...

 

Explain what is "utter" about my "nonsense"?

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Explain what is "utter" about my "nonsense"?

This should be in a seperate post but anyway; Like europe being taken over by muslims. That christianity is such an glorious religion (just for your info, the differences from islam and judaism are minor). And that anything about that are related in an important way when we talk about the ideology that formed the pillars of the USA.

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I think that is a really good point. States used to be pretty self-governing. The federal government has wrested quite a bit of power from the states, and have passed blanket laws that don't help every part of the country, and we no longer have the power to really make our own laws as we see fit in different parts of the country.

 

States used to be very self governing until the US Civil War. Up until then, states actually DID have the right to remove themselves from the US, as there was nothing to prohibit it. The Civil War happened and that's when we really start seeing the rise of the Founding Fathers' worst nightmare--a super strong central government.

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Whether or not that is true, they still included mention of "the Creator" in the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, AND the Constitution. They themselves MAY (I'm not conceding that point) have been liberal Atheists, as you say,

 

Where did I say atheist? I said they did not believe religion had any place in government. "their creator" is an intentionally broad and personal term. You'll notice the language is not "the creator". Take a look at the clarification in the first amendment -- "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;".

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