Free speech has consequences

[dark4181]

@ Alessandro: my fingers tripped. i meant to say "trying to justify your position" ...i didn't even notice it til you said something. sorry about any potential misunderstandings.

 

also, i don't put much stock in the christian church. i'm well aware of the various atrocities and such that have been perpetrated by the church throughout the years. one must remember that until about 300AD, "the Church" did not exist. the word of jesus was taught in small enclaves. also, all 12 of the apostles were martyred.. i find it very hard to believe that ANY ONE man, let alone twelve, would be willing to die for something that they knew was a lie. that alone leads me to consider more closely than i might otherwise. if you have a few dollars, and a mind to read, pick up "a case for christ" by lee strobel. he explains a lot of what i think better than i would be able to

 

@ killbot: i never said i thought homosexuality was a sin. i merely said that i neither agree with it, nor believe that it's a naturally occuring phenomenon. i don't agree with it, but i don't hate anyone that is {censored}. my own brother is {censored}. i can still love him as my flesh and blood and not have to agree with his choices. likewise, i can respect {censored} folks as people and still not agree with them.

 

and let me just say, i am sorry if i've managed to offend anybody. i've never been very good at getting my thoughts to come out of my mouth correctly.

[johan]

deny god and you're left with moral relativism. since god defines right and wrong, without god, there is no right and wrong, so any action (rape, murder, incest, etc) could be justified just like you're trying to justify yourself

 

and that website is attempting to present an unbiased view. it lists both sides. i didn't want to be accused of leaving out any relevant viewpoints :-p

 

The fact that there is no god and that the bible&god are made up by people

 

proves you wrong

 

 

But what about Humanism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

 

I am a humanist and atheists, and stil have strong views on wrong and right

 

I know for sure that homofobia is wrong, just like rape, murder and incest.

[dark4181]

The fact that there is no god and that the bible&god are made up by people

 

proves you wrong

But what about Humanism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

 

I am a humanist and atheists, and stil have strong views on wrong and right

 

I know for sure that homofobia is wrong, just like rape, murder and incest.

 

the point i was trying to make is this: without an overseeing authority figure, aka "god" ...what is the foundation for any moral? by what standard is right contrasted with wrong? what basis provides equilibrium between right and wrong? ...without said authority figure, any rule can be bent, broken or changed at the slightest whim or whoever wishes to do it. it happens enough in politics, but by nature, they are bereft of morals

 

popular consensus amoung humans changes in cycles.. as an example: 6 years ago, the majority of the american public agreed with the "war on terror" and now the majority has shifted in the opposite direction...

 

also, i am not a homophobe... from dictionary.com:

 

ho·mo·pho·bi·a [hoh-muh-foh-bee-uh]

–noun

unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality.

 

i neither fear nor hate homosexuals, i simply exercise my free will to not agree with them

[Alessandro17]

@ Alessandro: my fingers tripped. i meant to say "trying to justify your position" ...i didn't even notice it til you said something. sorry about any potential misunderstandings.

 

OK, not to worry

 

also, i don't put much stock in the christian church. i'm well aware of the various atrocities and such that have been perpetrated by the church throughout the years. one must remember that until about 300AD, "the Church" did not exist. the word of jesus was taught in small enclaves. also, all 12 of the apostles were martyred.. i find it very hard to believe that ANY ONE man, let alone twelve, would be willing to die for something that they knew was a lie. that alone leads me to consider more closely than i might otherwise. if you have a few dollars, and a mind to read, pick up "a case for christ" by lee strobel. he explains a lot of what i think better than i would be able to

 

I don't have any problem either in believing that the Christ was an extraordinary being. According to Induhism he was an "Avatar", a projection of God on earth. According to Buddhism he was the Lord Maitreya.

But the "Christian Church", like many religions, is nothing but a power structure created to oppress mankind.

[johan]

the point i was trying to make is this: without an overseeing authority figure, aka "god" ...what is the foundation for any moral? by what standard is right contrasted with wrong? what basis provides equilibrium between right and wrong? ...without said authority figure, any rule can be bent, broken or changed at the slightest whim or whoever wishes to do it. it happens enough in politics, but by nature, they are bereft of morals

 

popular consensus amoung humans changes in cycles.. as an example: 6 years ago, the majority of the american public agreed with the "war on terror" and now the majority has shifted in the opposite direction...

 

also, i am not a homophobe... from dictionary.com:

i neither fear nor hate homosexuals, i simply exercise my free will to not agree with them

 

"them" ?

 

the point I was making is that all moral comes from the human mind

 

and its foundation is complex and diverse

 

not simple like one source, aka "god"

[killbot1000]

i neither fear nor hate homosexuals, i simply exercise my free will to not agree with them

 

To drill a point even further:

 

"I neither fear nor hate African Americans, I simply exercise my free will not to agree with them..."

 

Do you see what the problem with your post is? You are judging somebody based on what they are, not what they do. There is a big problem with that, people cant really help who they are, they can only help what they do. Being {censored} is not a choice, its not an act. Having sex with somebody of the same sex is an act, but this doesn't make somebody {censored}.

 

{censored} people can't help being {censored}, just as you cant help being strait. It is simply the way we are, the way we were born.

[dark4181]

{censored} people can't help being {censored}, just as you cant help being strait. It is simply the way we are, the way we were born.

 

That's where we disagree. I simply do not believe that homosexuality is a hardwired thing, because if it was, everybody would be

 

BTW, I don't agree with some of the things that "African Americans" do.. like run in gangs, sell drugs, shoot people, and other things. But not all of them do that, and people of other race do those things also. I also hold the opinion that if you were born in America, then you are an American. The color of someone's skin is irrelevant to me

[Paranoid Marvin]

i neither fear nor hate homosexuals, i simply exercise my free will to not agree with them

 

Fair enough.

I guess that means you are ok to disagree with someone because they are ginger, or have blue eyes or dislike pineapple.

[apowerr]

{censored} people can't help being {censored}, just as you cant help being strait. It is simply the way we are, the way we were born.

I don't feel that I was 'born straight'. I sure wasn't born {censored} either, mind you I think it has a lot to do with nurture.

[dark4181]

Fair enough.

I guess that means you are ok to disagree with someone because they are ginger, or have blue eyes or dislike pineapple.

 

actually, i like red hair above all other colors.. it's hawt lol

 

but as there is no law or directive in place that i am required to agree with everyone else's opinion and stand on issues (or they with mine) i don't see how that matters. my beliefs are my own, and your beliefs are your own.

 

so, i guess we'll have to fall back on that old ideology.. to agree to disagree

 

[killbot1000]

That's where we disagree. I simply do not believe that homosexuality is a hardwired thing, because if it was, everybody would be

 

BTW, I don't agree with some of the things that "African Americans" do.. like run in gangs, sell drugs, shoot people, and other things. But not all of them do that, and people of other race do those things also. I also hold the opinion that if you were born in America, then you are an American. The color of someone's skin is irrelevant to me

 

Do you believe being strait is hard-wired?

[dark4181]

Do you believe being strait is hard-wired?

 

Yes, because natural progression requires procreation

[killbot1000]

That's where we disagree. I simply do not believe that homosexuality is a hardwired thing, because if it was, everybody would be

 

BTW, I don't agree with some of the things that "African Americans" do.. like run in gangs, sell drugs, shoot people, and other things. But not all of them do that, and people of other race do those things also. I also hold the opinion that if you were born in America, then you are an American. The color of someone's skin is irrelevant to me

 

I don't think you understand. Being African American is something somebody is, not something somebody does. This means that when you say "I don't agree with some of the things that "African Americans" do..." You are referring to all African Americans, whether that was your intention or not. You are also leaving other groups out who happen to fit the same profile as the point you are trying to make.

 

White people, Asians, and Hispanics all form gangs, sell drugs, shoot people, and "other things" as well. It is not simply confined to the African American community. From the way you are stating your language, it is apparent that we really aren't arguing the same thing.

 

The only way that we can argue the same thing is if I start to describe things people are as things people do, or if you start to describe things people are as things people are.

 

The way we are arguing is like talking about apples and oranges rather than apples and apples.

 

The evidence would indicate that homosexuality is something that one is born with, or something that is a predisposition. In studies that have been done on identical twins who have grown up separately in different households, the evidence has indicated that if one twin turns out to be {censored}, the other twin is much more likely to be {censored}.

 

A different set of studies focused on {censored} couples adopting children have shown, that these adoptive children are no more likely to be {censored} than children raised in traditional households.

 

While these two bodies of evidence do not directly show that there is no correlation between homosexuality and choice, they would seem to indicate that...

 

Again, don't confuse things people do with things people are.

 

One does not make the choice to be a homosexual. Having sex with people of the same sex is a choice, that is the action. Homosexuality is a feeling, how one feels inside, ones attraction, etc. It is independent from choice and action much as your feeling of being attracted to the opposite sex is outside of choice. Your decision to have sex with somebody of the opposite sex is however, the choice.

 

The Bible says that one "should not lay with another man as they would lay with a woman" (Or something similar, I'm sure the punishment is probably death though, like many things in the bible). So even if you were to agree with me here, it would not have any conflicts with your current beliefs whatsoever, because the bible is opposed to the physical action of homosexual activity, not the feeling, which is what homosexuality actually is.

 

However if you do concede that homosexuality is what somebody feels (or what somebody is), then judging people on that basis becomes tricky work, which is probably why we don't agree to begin with.

 

Just thought I'd throw some stuff out there...

 

PS:

 

Also to throw out a little mind puzzle. If being homosexual isn't hardwired, then why do almost all wild animals who do not have any higher brain function (like we do) engage in homosexual acts? Was it their choice? Are they Sentient?

[dark4181]

I don't think you understand. Being African American is something somebody is, not something somebody does. This means that when you say "I don't agree with some of the things that "African Americans" do..." You are referring to all African Americans, whether that was your intention or not. You are also leaving other groups out who happen to fit the same profile as the point you are trying to make.

 

White people, Asians, and Hispanics all form gangs, sell drugs, shoot people, and "other things" as well. It is not simply confined to the African American community. From the way you are stating your language, it is apparent that we really aren't arguing the same thing.

 

I believe I made the distinction in a previous post acknowledging what you stated here.

 

The only way that we can argue the same thing is if I start to describe things people are as things people do, or if you start to describe things people are as things people are.

 

The way we are arguing is like talking about apples and oranges rather than apples and apples.

 

Since you put it like that, I'll admit that I hadn't thought about it from that angle

 

The evidence would indicate that homosexuality is something that one is born with, or something that is a predisposition. In studies that have been done on identical twins who have grown up separately in different households, the evidence has indicated that if one twin turns out to be {censored}, the other twin is much more likely to be {censored}.

 

The difference between genetic inheritance and a "predisposition" is that a genetic inheritance is hardwired, and a "predisposition" is something that you can make a choice to follow or not. Many kinds of stimulus can influence our choices, not the least of which is personal experiences. Nurture can as well. Any number of things could lead to a choice to act on a "homosexual predisposition"

 

A different set of studies focused on {censored} couples adopting children have shown, that these adoptive children are no more likely to be {censored} than children raised in traditional households.

 

While these two bodies of evidence do not directly show that there is no correlation between homosexuality and choice, they would seem to indicate that...

 

If I'm not mistaken, similar studies have been undertaken in regards to physical abuse (abusive father ~> abusive son) and murder too. It all comes down to the choices we make in response to life stimulus.

 

Again, don't confuse things people do with things people are.

 

I understand now that you were arguing based on this distinction. My apologies.

 

One does not make the choice to be a homosexual. Having sex with people of the same sex is a choice, that is the action. Homosexuality is a feeling, how one feels inside, ones attraction, etc. It is independent from choice and action much as your feeling of being attracted to the opposite sex is outside of choice. Your decision to have sex with somebody of the opposite sex is however, the choice.

 

Philosophically speaking, "Who we are is defined by the choices we make."

 

The Bible says that one "should not lay with another man as they would lay with a woman" (Or something similar, I'm sure the punishment is probably death though, like many things in the bible). So even if you were to agree with me here, it would not have any conflicts with your current beliefs whatsoever, because the bible is opposed to the physical action of homosexual activity, not the feeling, which is what homosexuality actually is.

 

However if you do concede that homosexuality is what somebody feels (or what somebody is), then judging people on that basis becomes tricky work, which is probably why we don't agree to begin with.

 

When my girlfriend cheated on me a few years ago, I wanted to kill her, because I felt horrible. I didn't act on that feeling though, because the choice would have had me commit a horrible act.

 

So, if I had acted upon the feeling of murder, I would have been a murderer. Since I did not, I am not.

 

Substitute "homosexual" in for "murder" in the above statement, and my point is made

 

Just thought I'd throw some stuff out there...

 

PS:

 

Also to throw out a little mind puzzle. If being homosexual isn't hardwired, then why do almost all wild animals who do not have any higher brain function (like we do) engage in homosexual acts? Was it their choice? Are they Sentient?

 

Are inmates in prison that don't see a woman for many years, and therefore turn to other men for pleasure, homosexual? Perhaps it is an act of gratification only.

 

I hope this post meets your demands

[JonTheSavage]

The fact that there is no god and that the bible&god are made up by people

 

proves you wrong

 

 

But what about Humanism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

 

I am a humanist and atheists, and stil have strong views on wrong and right

 

I know for sure that homofobia is wrong, just like rape, murder and incest.

 

You are just sick, and delusional, please seek mental help.

[Paranoid Marvin]

You are just sick, and delusional, please seek mental help.

 

OryHara, what you are saying is not only your own opion, but it is also wrong.

Homsexuality is natural.

It is perfectly natural, just like tall people, black people and blue eyed people.

If it is sick and wrong, then why has it been observed in many animal species?

If it is unnatural, why have there been {censored} since the start of recorded history?

 

Furthermore, why are you preaching freedom for all, when you are no different from the fachists that run your country?

You draw comparisons to Stalin and Hitler, whilst you mindset seems reminiscent of old Adolf himself.

If hypocrisy was a mental illness you would have been sectioned long ago.

Perhaps you should focus on your own dillusions and mental health - that would be for your own good.

And after all, that's the only person you seem to have any respect or care for.

[Alessandro17]

You are just sick, and delusional, please seek mental help.

 

Wasn't it you who used "Mad as Hell" as your custom title?

[JonTheSavage]

OryHara, what you are saying is not only your own opion, but it is also wrong.

Homsexuality is natural.

It is perfectly natural, just like tall people, black people and blue eyed people.

If it is sick and wrong, then why has it been observed in many animal species?

If it is unnatural, why have there been {censored} since the start of recorded history?

 

Furthermore, why are you preaching freedom for all, when you are no different from the fachists that run your country?

You draw comparisons to Stalin and Hitler, whilst you mindset seems reminiscent of old Adolf himself.

If hypocrisy was a mental illness you would have been sectioned long ago.

Perhaps you should focus on your own dillusions and mental health - that would be for your own good.

And after all, that's the only person you seem to have any respect or care for.

 

Look, you can do whatever you want. Its a free country. Do it in your house. I don't care. Its not up to anyone to decide what you do with your life. I'm not gonna stop you. But, like I said from my other post, on another topic. Don't do it in front of me on the street, or there will be problems.

 

{censored} have always, and always will be looked down upon in society. I don't care if you like it, tough {censored}, life is not a walk in the park, and never will be. America will fall because it moved away from God and the Constitution. It has moved into a den of sickness, and corruption. This type of {censored} always happens at the begenning of the end of an empire, and it's happening now.

 

My opinion remains. Its sick, and in most places in the world you get killed for being {censored}. I have my freedom of speech, and I'll damned well say what I want. You can do what you want, but that doesn't mean that someone won't tell you it is wrong, sick, unnatural, and immoral. Deal with it. Thats life. Be grateful you don't live in a 3rd world country where they take you out in front of a firing squad, while you whine like a yuppie.

 

That is the liberatarian view. Get over it.

[Alessandro17]

in most places in the world you get killed for being {censored}.

 

Iran is not "most places in the world"

If you like it so much, why don't you move there?

 

That is the liberatarian view. Get over it.

 

So now we know that libertarian=Nazism. Great.

[modman860]

what she said wasn't right, but i definetly think their is a slippery slope with the {censored} rights thing. imo, {censored} should go about their business without flaunting it or trying to recruit people. if they wanna be {censored}, then it doens't really matter, until they come out of the closet and start fighting for their own selfish cause. {censored} marrying {censored}? sure, let that happen. but whos to say a man can't marry a dog? or tie it down and {censored} it against it's will for that matter? its a free country right?

 

sure, lets have kids being raised by two men or two women, its about the {censored} couple doing what they want to do, not whats in the best interest of the child.

 

homosexuality is nothing but a perversion as far as i'm concerned. doesnt make them bad people, but it shouldnt be celebrated either. and they shouldnt be trying to recruit little kids by writing books about two {censored} pandas raising a family or anything else along those lines.

 

and she has the right to say what she did. sure its ok to talk about {censored} rights and this and that, so whats wrong with voicing your opinions if your on the opposite end of the spectrum? censorship is plain wrong, period. whos to say whats right and what isn't? if you have a problem with someone you confront them, you don't try to take away their right to say what's on their mind. {censored} are people too afterall, they can have their feelings hurt just like the rest of us.

 

so if your {censored}, keep it to yourself. especially no public displays of affection. even two girls kissing, while its very hot, little kids shouldnt see that either. ok thats all i have to say

[johan]

what she said wasn't right, but i definetly think their is a slippery slope with the {censored} rights thing. imo, {censored} should go about their business without flaunting it or trying to recruit people. if they wanna be {censored}, then it doens't really matter, until they come out of the closet and start fighting for their own selfish cause. {censored} marrying {censored}? sure, let that happen. but whos to say a man can't marry a dog? or tie it down and {censored} it against it's will for that matter? its a free country right?

 

sure, lets have kids being raised by two men or two women, its about the {censored} couple doing what they want to do, not whats in the best interest of the child.

 

homosexuality is nothing but a perversion as far as i'm concerned. doesnt make them bad people, but it shouldnt be celebrated either. and they shouldnt be trying to recruit little kids by writing books about two {censored} pandas raising a family or anything else along those lines.

 

and she has the right to say what she did. sure its ok to talk about {censored} rights and this and that, so whats wrong with voicing your opinions if your on the opposite end of the spectrum? censorship is plain wrong, period. whos to say whats right and what isn't? if you have a problem with someone you confront them, you don't try to take away their right to say what's on their mind. {censored} are people too afterall, they can have their feelings hurt just like the rest of us.

 

so if your {censored}, keep it to yourself. especially no public displays of affection. even two girls kissing, while its very hot, little kids shouldnt see that either. ok thats all i have to say

 

so 10 percent of the population is perverted?

 

so Plato, Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, Alexander the Great, Sir Isaac Newton,

Leonard Bernstein , James Baldwin, Oscar Wilde, Jodi Foster, Freddie Mercury etc. all are sick and perverted people?

 

yeay right

 

you think that {censored} are recruiting kids and people? come on, so you realy think, that I could have made you {censored}? is that what you believe?

 

thats nonsense educate yourself

 

I knew from a very early age ( 5 year) that I was different.

 

I am pretty sure, being {censored} is something you are born with. Just like someone is born like a girl or boy. Its in the brain structure ( hypothalamus).

 

just read all the work of {censored} Swaab, Ph.D./M.D:

 

{censored} Swaab, M.D., Ph.D., Director, Netherlands Institute for Brain Research, et al., published the research study, "Brain Research, Gender, and Sexual Orientation," (Journal of Homosexuality, Vol. 28, No. 3/4, pp. 283-301, 1995):

 

"n a sample of brains of homosexual men we did find that an area of the hypothalamus called the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) contains twice as many cells as the SCN of a heterosexual group...

 

It appears very unlikely that homosexual behavior as such would increase the neuronal number in any brain structure. Yet the development of SCN cell numbers suggest that the explanation for the large SCN in homosexual men most likely may be found in early brain development.

 

At birth, the SCN contains only 13-20% of the adult number of cells, but in the postnatal period development is rapid. Cell counts reach a peak around 13-16 months after birth. The SCN cell numbers found in adult homosexual men were in the same order of magnitude as found around 13-16 months after birth. The normal pattern is that the cell numbers decline to the adult value of about 35% of the peak values.

 

In homosexual men, therefore, this postnatal cell death in the SCN seems to have been curtailed."

 

I am married with my partner, and comparing my mariage with a human-dog mariage is offensive and stupid

 

Its all about human rights, i am {censored} and should have the same civil right like other people

 

like being able to marry the person i love

[superstition]

i neither fear nor hate homosexuals, i simply exercise my free will to not agree with them

Oh brother.

 

I suggest you read this, a statement from an organization of 250,000+ mental health professionals before telling us about your "free will":

 

http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html

[aduffbrew]

OK...

 

Libertarianism=Fascism? There's going to be trouble if you're {censored} in front of me? {censored}'s shouldn't recruit people? Are you kidding me? Honestly, I stopped reading this thread after those comments. I am sure it's just brimming with other "enlightened" gems. It's true what they say, those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it. We've always been fearful hate-mongers... humanity, I mean. The United States is a work in progress... always has been and, God willing, always will be.

 

Too many "less informed" Americans think their Constitution was designed specifically to safeguard the rights of the majority. That's just plain silly. England already had that. Our forefathers wanted something better. The Constitution is intended to safeguard the rights of THE INDIVIDUAL or, if you wish, the minority. To safeguard our own rights we must safeguard the rights of others... even those belonging to people we don't necessarily agree with... especially those belonging to people we don't agree with... in so much as their rights do not infringe on our own. That's how freedom works.

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." ~ The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen United States of America (The Declaration of Independence)

 

{censored}, Straight, Bisexual... black, brown, white... man or woman... Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist... what ever label that might be used on you, it really doesn't matter. We can all be equal under the law with the same rights, privileges, and RESPONSIBILITIES in this pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. We should all have the right to marry who we love. We should all have the privilege to express that love openly. We should all take the responsibility to do those things in an appropriate manner with a certain level of proper public decorum.

 

Because society might be struggling to come to terms with the new social reality of pluralism, it doesn't mean we need throw the baby out with the bath water. There is no doubt in my mind that some of the mistakes being made overshadow the good being done. Still, the over all trend is a positive one. Learning to live in harmony with those who embrace different values, different ideas, and different expectations is exactly on what our success as a race depends.

 

I'm gratified by the opportunity and privilege to share my values with my boys... teaching them that while they might not understand the lesbians pushing the stroller in the park holding hands and kissing that they are just living life the best they know how and we must do the same. And more importantly, as long as they are safe to live life how they wish, we are too. Diversity is a beautiful thing. It provides us opportunity to reflect on ourselves and the choices we've made... and not necessarily to agree, promote, and most importantly, condone. I believe God reserves that right for Himself. "Judge not, that ye be not judged." ~ Matthew 7:1

 

"Oh, mankind, God could have made you one if He had willed, but He did not. He made you the separate nations and tribes so that you could know one another, cooperate with one another, and compete with one another in good works." ~ Qur'an 5:48

 

So to those not with the diversity program yet... we have hope you'll grow up and join us in the 21st century. Life's too short.

[JonTheSavage]

Oh brother.

 

I suggest you read this, a statement from an organization of 250,000+ mental health professionals before telling us about your "free will":

 

http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html

 

The APA needs professional help.

[dark4181]

Oh brother.

 

I suggest you read this, a statement from an organization of 250,000+ mental health professionals before telling us about your "free will":

 

http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html

 

Feelings of homosexuality MAY be hardwired, but the CHOICE to act on those impulses is just that: A CHOICE... Having a choice implies free will.