Death of a President

[Takuro]

AcePlayer, I'm sorry but I have to say this: one death doesn't justify another.

 

I don't think I'm overstepping bounds, but you frighten me sometimes by your ardent support for Muslim threads, which you constantly clutter these forums with. Maybe it's in an effort to get people to convert. I don't know and I can't judge that. But to say you wish my president was dead... well... I draw the line there.

 

As Willy Wonka once said, "Good Day Sir!"

[gwprod12]

One thing that always resounds with me is the issue of choice.

 

People act like they dont have any. There are good choices, bad choices, profitable choices, unprofitable choices, etc and so forth. But everyone has a choice.

 

That being said, regardless of anything else, no one can force anyone to wear a Burka (sp?), unless they tie you up and immobilize you. Even holding a gun to your head and coercing you to wear Islamic drag, is still giving you a choice. If the Burka is oppressive, that oppression is a choice. No one can be blamed for your false conciousness but yourself.

 

On expressing oneself freely and openly... Telling someone they cant wear clothing because it is an acoutrement of the false conciousness that binds them in oppression... isnt exactly allowing freedom of expression, is it?

 

Takuro: As tempted as I am to wish King George would keel over, I'd be much happier if he was impeached and dragged from the White House in chains.

 

EDIT: kinerry, I should rather like it if you could find the passage in the US Code that says wishing the president would die is a felony.

 

EDIT 2: I'll do it for you.

 

Title 18 Section 871

 

Threats against President and successors to the Presidency

 

(a) Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

( The terms “President-elect” and “Vice President-elect” as used in this section shall mean such persons as are the apparent successful candidates for the offices of President and Vice President, respectively, as ascertained from the results of the general elections held to determine the electors of President and Vice President in accordance with title 3, United States Code, sections 1 and 2. The phrase “other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President” as used in this section shall mean the person next in the order of succession to act as President in accordance with title 3, United States Code, sections 19 and 20.

 

In United States v Kelner, a threat is defined as:

 

"on its face and in the circumstances which it is made is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate and specific as to the person threatened as to convey a gravity of purpose, imminent prospect of execution."

 

So, if you will, please leave the law enforcement to law enforcement and the legal mumbojumbo to legal experts.

[Mebster]

AcePlayer, I'm sorry but I have to say this: one death doesn't justify another.

 

I don't think I'm overstepping bounds, but you frighten me sometimes by your ardent support for Muslim threads, which you constantly clutter these forums with. Maybe it's in an effort to get people to convert. I don't know and I can't judge that. But to say you wish my president was dead... well... I draw the line there.

 

As Willy Wonka once said, "Good Day Sir!"

If one death didn't justify another then you wouldn't have capital punishment all around the world including America.

 

And this isn't about Muslims. Bush is a stain on humanity from my point of view. I wanting him gone has nothing to do with people becoming Muslim. As a matter of fact it's likely to turn them away but that doesn't mean I’m going to change my view. So it has nothing to do with converting people.

 

And anyway we're all debating faiths here. The same could be said about others who are trying to convert us to Christianity or atheism just by them taking about their individual faith. But has been happening. Not from you anyway. I notice that you're the same guy who made a point about the Ramadan issue. I was confused then what explaining to someone about Ramadan has to do with converting them and i still am now. Jewish and Christain members all told us in the topic how they fast when they need to and that was what the main point of the topic was. People to get talking about fasting. And it did.

 

I'm sure normally if people wanted my president dead I wouldn't feel too happy but it comes down to the president. If my president was a serial killer who goes over to people’s homes and guns them down, then I would care less. Well Bush doesn't go to people’s homes but he send his armies there to do the job.

 

There are expection for wanting someone dead. And in my view Bush and the rest of the killers out there are the exception.

[gwprod12]

Speaking of selling your faith. It's distasteful no matter what you're religion.

[wildcat69410]

Speaking of selling your faith. It's distasteful no matter what you're religion.

 

Nearly as distasteful as bashing one's faith gwprod...

[killbot1000]

is gwprod bashing his own faith? I dont think so

[Mebster]

Speaking of selling your faith. It's distasteful no matter what you're religion.

What is he saying?

[gwprod12]

I'm saying that trying to sell your faith is only slightly less distasteful than trying to sell a Cell Phone plan.

 

No one wants to be accosted and told the glory, rightness and etc and so forth of anyone else's religion.

 

Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons are especially agregious violators of this principle.

 

Maybe I'm not explaining it correctly. It's the missionary concept. When people come to your door and try to convince you to join their religion. It's disgusting and in very bad taste.

 

Make sense?

[Mebster]

I'm saying that trying to sell your faith is only slightly less distasteful than trying to sell a Cell Phone plan.

 

No one wants to be accosted and told the glory, rightness and etc and so forth of anyone else's religion.

 

Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons are especially agregious violators of this principle.

 

Maybe I'm not explaining it correctly. It's the missionary concept. When people come to your door and try to convince you to join their religion. It's disgusting and in very bad taste.

 

Make sense?

I don't know if you know anyone who has ever converted to a faith but I know a few. I doubt they would think it was disgusting when someone went up to them to explain Islam (or whatever faith). Jehova's Witnesses have come up to me many times and although I’m a Muslim I have often given them my time. And when I don't have the time I kindly told them I’m busy right now. I didn't tell them "what you're doing is disgusting".

 

Remember the world has many converts many of whom were introduced to their new faith from someone they meet. These people appreciate that someone took the time to tell them about what they were missing (whatever it may be). Only people who have no faith or are blindly holding on to one are ones who consider it disgusting. As they only see it from their narrow point of view. Think of it from the views of the many converts.

[gwprod12]

Well, I'm glad that being told your religious methodology is inferior and wrong is something you're ecstatic about. Keep up the good work. As for myself, I have the capability, on my own, to research other things. I dont need someone making it their mission to convert me.

 

If I'm interested in buying a car, I'll ask for assistance. Same with a cell phone plan. Same with a religion.

 

High-pressure sales is almost universally despised, however.

[Mebster]

I think you're making this a little too personal.

 

It isn't about anyone trying to convert YOU. If you don't want to read anything I have to say about Islam or wildcat69410 has to say about Christianity then you can always visit other topics. But you don't and you choose to listen to us talking about religion in our "preaches" and very often even participate in your own way. This is even though you claim this is exactly what you despise. Why pay us any attention? There are topics here I dislike and could very well join in and tell everyone that their loonies for whatever reason but I don't and wouldn’t choose to participate.

 

I just wouldn't go over and listen to something I know I’m not going to want to.

 

Edit: It's not about being "ecstatic" about someone telling me my religion is wrong. It's about having enough respect for them to at least not shun them and their faith. It's just disrespectful to tell people what they do is "disgusting".

[Takuro]

I think you're making this a little too personal.

He takes everything personal. I'm sure somebody could announce "I like pretzels" and he'll find an argument about it.

 

I don't see how gwprod can say that people are capable of free choice when a gun is held to their head. Free choice means you have complete freedom to make a decision without any outside forces trying to coerce you. In the case he brought up, the gun would be a form of coercion. Any sane person would do whatever they can to avoid the gun. Of course, there are some people with extraordinary willpower that can overcome this, but the majority of people can't and aren't expected to go to this extreme. Saying otherwise is twisted logic.

 

They say that when one is stripped of all liberties, they always retain one freedom: to choose their own attitude about it. But remember, it isn't clear cut and dry "choice" and "no choice." There are also levels of choice. You can have 3 options or 30,000 options. Being held at gunpoint limits your options, allowing only that most basic freedom: freedom of attitude.

 

You can argue that being given the minimum is fine since at least it isn't complete nothingness, but I say all people deserve more than the minimum. They deserve a wide variety of choice.

 

-----------------

 

On a 2nd note, about capital punishment: That's gradually going away. It's not nearly as common as before. It was bad in the past, but let's focus on the future. As times change, so must views of life. Life is now more valued than it was during primitive ages. Religions must be flexible to adapt with the changing world. Therefore, I say each life has value, even my enemy's life, and only God has the right to directly kill them. I don't believe God can give anybody the right to kill, or to give a message to kill in some "prophesy." I believe natural death is the only course God could ever intend. Anything else would be intervention.

[gwprod12]

Oh. That makes more sense. You simply dont get what I'm talking about. I was referring to the "Christians trying to convert us" statement you were making. I wasnt referring to anything said in the forum. (though you might have been). I dont care if people declare themselves muslims, athiests, baptists or martians. I was talking about active proseltizing, which IS distasteful. The only people who think cornering people and badgering them with their religion is good, are the people who do it. It can also be extended. If someone believes that it is their duty to do whatever is necessary to convert someone to their faith, for otherwise, they would be leaving them to the flames of hell... that person has a serious problem.

 

So, now tell me. You think people with signs saying "Muslims burn in hell" is in good taste?

 

Obviously, the average Muslim would be offended by "Islam sucks", just as I would be offended by "Islam is the greatest".

 

I'm not saying anyone cant say whatever they want. That's hypocritical. But, it's pretty established in western society (the one, if I recall correctly, that both of us live in) that neither religion or politics are proper subjects for discussion in polite company. They are subjects for debate, where it's obvious what you're getting yourself into before you do.

 

Proseltizing is just plain rude, and should be treated as such. Fortunately for me, Muslims have never attempted to "educate me" as I know very little about Islam. But Christians of all denominations have done so. Though I can usually scare off most missionaries with my superior knowledge of the bible.

[Mebster]

He takes everything personal. I'm sure somebody could announce "I like pretzels" and he'll find an argument about it.

 

I don't see how gwprod can say that people are capable of free choice when a gun is held to their head. Free choice means you have complete freedom to make a decision without any outside forces trying to coerce you. In the case he brought up, the gun would be a form of coercion. Any sane person would do whatever they can to avoid the gun. Of course, there are some people with extraordinary willpower that can overcome this, but the majority of people can't and aren't expected to go to this extreme. Saying otherwise is twisted logic.

 

They say that when one is stripped of all liberties, they always retain one freedom: to choose their own attitude about it. But remember, it isn't clear cut and dry "choice" and "no choice." There are also levels of choice. You can have 3 options or 30,000 options. Being held at gunpoint limits your options, allowing only that most basic freedom: freedom of attitude.

 

You can argue that being given the minimum is fine since at least it isn't complete nothingness, but I say all people deserve more than the minimum. They deserve a wide variety of choice.

 

-----------------

 

On a 2nd note, about capital punishment: That's gradually going away. It's not nearly as common as before. It was bad in the past, but let's focus on the future. As times change, so must views of life. Life is now more valued than it was during primitive ages. Religions must be flexible to adapt with the changing world. Therefore, I say each life has value, even my enemy's life, and only God has the right to directly kill them. I don't believe God can give anybody the right to kill, or to give a message to kill in some "prophesy." I believe natural death is the only course God could ever intend. Anything else would be intervention.

I laughed my ass off in the first sentence. I gotta finish reading this.

 

EDIT: Capital punishment is something I’ve always kind of agreed with. Not because I’m a Muslim but simply because I’ve felt that people who have no respect for anyone else life (i.e. go around killing people), society should not have respect for their life. I can understand why people would disagree with this and that's expected. All i know is that if someone was to harm someone I knew I would want justice to grant me his head on a platter. I'm sure if any of us were in an unfortunate situation like this many would not be happy knowing that the person who gunned down several of your family members is playing checkers in some prison.

 

Also when a murderer is sentenced to prison it is society who picks up the bill through tax. Not the criminal. That's just not right. Why are we paying (literally) for his mistake?

[gwprod12]

I disagree for the only good reason there is to disagree. My understanding of a given situation is different than someone elses.

 

I like pretzels too. Soft, preferably, though hard works too, in a pinch. With Salt.

 

When someone holds a gun to your head, and says to you "cut your wrists", you have three choices. You can do as they say, and bleed to death, you can not do what they say, and get shot, or you can attempt to fight. Fighting is the only way you can escape death in this situation. The only reason someone doesnt attempt to fight is because they think they have no choice. Which is exactly what you're propagating.

 

There is always a choice. Always. Like I said before, sometimes the choices arent good. But, since there can never be absolute freedom, there can never be completely free choice. One makes do with what they have. If a Muslim woman doesnt want to wear the Burka, they can take it off. No one, short of making her physically incapable of taking off the Burka, can stop her. They can beat her or murder her. They can refuse to speak to her because she's bad, or whatever. But that doesnt stop her from having a choice.

 

AcePlayer: execution has never been proven to be a deterrent to criminality. Execution is a completely illegitimate means to stopping murders. That being said, I think that execution is a perfectly acceptable means of preventing society from having to be burdened by unproductive people for decades. Alternatively, as one sees in some states in the southern US, prisoners are forced (as much as it is possible to force them) to work at hard labor to pay society back for their crimes and cost of incarceration. It seems to work fairly well.

 

On a similar note. If the state of california put the inmate population to work in the agricultural fields, not only would it compensate society for their crimes and incarceration, it would also take up jobs that illegal aliens are needed to fulfill. (picking strawberries is also crappy work... THAT would be a deterrent)

 

As I have said previously on a hundred different occasions: there is always a compromise.

[Takuro]

Besides, if you kill somebody, you're expediting the end of their suffering, aren't you? I much rather be executed quickly than spend a lifetime in solitary confinement or doing labor with no hope of compensation. Also, if you retaliate by killing, people can always be so filled with shock that they are more mad at you than the person killed, even if it did feel justified at the time.

 

Maybe that's what should happen to George Bush. We should make him pick apples in a Texas orchid for the rest of his life. And baking pretzels... I'm sure his hands would get wrinkly from doing so many pretzel knots.

 

This is a general rule of thumb: In a nation, the people often criticize their leaders. However, if an outsider criticizes that leader, those very same people will ardently come in defense of their leader. In a family, people can feel comfortable giving each other a hard time. But if a stranger gave a family member a hard time, suddenly it isn't ok and you'll rush to defend your family. Get it?

[gwprod12]

I must be confused. Are you saying it was wrong and bad for an American to want Saddam Hussein to be blitzed from existence?

[mifki]

Are you saying it was wrong and bad for an American to want Saddam Hussein to be blitzed from existence?

I am

[Mebster]

gwprod12, not sure why you would be offended by "Islam is the greatest"? Given the fact that you have no religion I would have thought it would be easier for you. It would be for me anyway if I was in your situation. On the other hand if you were Christian then I could understand.

Also how is it that you could know very little about Islam but yet fight against it every other day with me? Mate, at the least read up on it. I respect that you were honest about it. I really do. You didn't try and bs us but it's just ignorant to say something is completely wrong without knowing much about it. At the least get a Qur'an translation or something. Read a few chapters and then come back and tell me how it's all wrong.

 

I don't believe in Christianity but still read about it when I can to get a better understand of it. Why? Because every time I come across another contradiction it solidifies to me that there's something wrong here. I'm not saying you have to use contradictions in the Qur'an to get your arguments with me but whatever you find (excluding an internet search as most of them can be disregarded and have been) and what YOU think. At least then you're whole heartedly telling me you think this is off, which believe it not I can handle. lol. Anyway dude tc. bed time.

 

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Guys I know what you’re saying. But I don't know. If I was considering doing a bank robbery (IM NOT THINKING OF IT JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR) the sentence being picking up supplies for the rest of my life probably wouldn't deter me much. At least I’m still alive. However if i was to know that if I robbed a bank I could be killed for it I probably would think twice about it. I believe in capital punishment as a deterrent and a justified punishment to the "insanely" twisted criminals of this world.

 

I assume it would be impossible to sleeping knowing that the person who took the life of your son or daughter (or whoever) is being feed and given a room to sleep in. He may be doing hard labour but I’m sure there are many many people in the world who would happy do the labout if they couldn't be get a room and a bed to sleep in. I mean couldn't you see the people dieing of hunger in Africa saying no to that? Our criminals get it too easy.

 

What makes it even worse is that life sentence doesn't mean life sentence anymore. Tell me when a couple murder two little girls, should they get out of prison at all? Where the logic in letting them get out? What makes it worse is that many of these murderesses are able to get out significantly earlier than what they were sentenced to. There are many reasons for this but one major one is overcrowding. One thing overcrowding tells you is that the deterrents are not working. Capital punishment will help here. Keeps people out of prison and if they are in there then remove the sickest criminals from this earth.

But that's my take on it.

 

 

Takuro, I totally understand what you're saying criticizing someone else’s president. And I agree it can't be easy. The family analogy made perfect sense too (nice). But the problems here are that being the head of the US comes with a lot of responsibility. And one of them is to the world in whole. Bush is failing miserably here and taking your nation down (I’m sorry to say) just as poodle is here too. Leaders MUST govern well for the interest of their nation but a leader of the US MUST govern well for the interest of the entire world. I know this is a heavy burden but it's what comes with being the president and we'll... we have candidates every few years. The problem with bush is not that he's a poor world leader (climate change, Africa,..) but that he's a criminally poor world leader (Afghanistan, Iraq,... possibly Iran ignoring N Korea, Zimbabwe...). For these reasons i hate the guy. It's almost like he doesn't think. I mean if you were to attack another Muslim country would it make the US safer? It might help run yours cars but you will get more death wishes and all.

 

With great power comes great responsibility.... and great criticism.

 

(Dude, I’m not trying to scare anyone but sorry if I do or did. Maybe I got carried away somewhere. But I don't want to have bad vibes, so sorry.)

[gwprod12]

I dont recall ever saying anything negative about Islam. It must have been my evil twin brother?

 

I dont have a problem with any specific religion. I dont have a problem with people believing in any specific religion. I do have a problem with people trying to spread their religion (whichever one it is). That's all.

 

When I say that I know almost nothing about Islam, I dont mean that I choose to know nothing, but more that information about it hasnt filtered down to me. The same can be said for lots of other religions. Of course, I say I know almost nothing about a lot of things, when I know more about them than the average person.

 

I know that Islam is an Abrahamic religion founded by Muhammed in the 6th or 7th century (IIRC), that it has several sects, and is founded more or less apon the principles of religious discipline. Aside from that, I'm not much of a student of Islam. I am familiar with Judaism, with which Islam shares many characteristics, and I am familiar with Christianity.

 

The way I see it is thus: Why do I care if you're a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Jainist or Athiest? I only care insofar as it allows me to have some concept of your cultural identity. Otherwise, I couldnt care less. I dont care if Islam is totally consistent, or totally inconsistent. Etc and so forth.

 

I've gone out of my way to make statements saying specifically that no religion is correct or incorrect in an absolute sense, and that no religion can be adjudicated in that way. I include Athiesm as a religion, since Athiesm is a set of held beliefs, just as Islam or Christianity is.

 

I dont believe in God, but I'm cool with anyone who does. That's cool man. I dont use any form of reason to backup my belief that there is no God, because reason is useless when trying to answer this question. I also appreciate it when people dont attempt to defend their religion by using reason either.

 

It all boils down to this: I dont say that your belief system is wrong, and I'd appreciate it if you didnt say mine was either. Either by directly attacking my belief system, or trying to push your own (you as in everyone, not you as in AcePlayer).

 

I will acknowledge that I've said that in my experience and opinion, most Christians (at least the ones who broadcast their faith) are bad people. That is not the same as saying Christianity is bad. Just as one might say that Extreme Islamism tends to breed terrorism (which isnt necessarily true, but is a widely held belief), not that Islam is about terror.

 

On a side note, Jesus said that people who broadcast their faith are hypocrits and will reap what they sow. If you arent a Christian (like myself, or AcePlayer), disregard.

 

EDIT: I was having a cigarette and thinking about Islam, and I remembered a few things. Muslims must pray toward mecca 5 times per day, must give to the poor, may not be a party to usury, and may only partake of "clean" foods. Oh, and a pilgrimage to mecca must be attempted in one's life.

 

As far as I know, the adherents to Islam genuinely believe in their religion, and, for the most part, adhere to Islam's strictures.

 

A few of the things Christians are obligated to do and refrain from:

Do:

Give their wealth to the poor

Refrain from:

Taking a part in usury, which, actually means paying use money on borrowed money, or interest.

Murder, theft, adultery, swearing oaths...

 

There are lots more.

[Mebster]

I dont recall ever saying anything negative about Islam. It must have been my evil twin brother?

I didn't really mean that you have said anything negative about Islam, just that your argue against it and it's believe as well as other religions belief. Clearly you think Islam, Christianity and the rest are wrong otherwise you would be one. All I’m saying is to think that one of the world’s major religions is wrong you ideally should know a little about it. Not just the basics. Not what you've read from the internet. But ideally picking up the Qur'an or Bible yourself. Islam and Christianity are founded on the Qur'an and Bible. If you have a problem with the actual scripture after reading them then we're getting somewhere. That's generally the way i see it anyway.

 

When I say that I know almost nothing about Islam, I dont mean that I choose to know nothing, but more that information about it hasnt filtered down to me.

And I get what you mean about not enough information filtering through. That my situation with Judaism.

 

 

I know that Islam is an Abrahamic religion founded by Muhammed in the 6th or 7th century (IIRC), that it has several sects, and is founded more or less apon the principles of religious discipline. Aside from that, I'm not much of a student of Islam. I am familiar with Judaism, with which Islam shares many characteristics, and I am familiar with Christianity.

..

..

EDIT: I was having a cigarette and thinking about Islam, and I remembered a few things. Muslims must pray toward mecca 5 times per day, must give to the poor, may not be a party to usury, and may only partake of "clean" foods. Oh, and a pilgrimage to mecca must be attempted in one's life.

lol. Not bad. But it sounds like you recalled something you were taught way back in school. Especially the "clean food" bit. But what you more or less got here is the foundation concepts of Islam. And to know anything about a religion you need to know the foundations of it. And so really this is just a start.

[gwprod12]

I dont think Islam is wrong. It's not that clear-cut. The failure of religion and society is exactly that, though. Because person A believes in religion B, religion C must be wrong. Therefore person D who believes in religion C must be a heretic. No religion is right or wrong. It only has belief and disbelief.

[killbot1000]

This is just me, I know im alone, but religion seems like a waste of time to me. because A. Nobody knows what happens after they die B. All evidence for believing a religion is purely anecdoteal in nature.

[Takuro]

Alrite I'm dropping out of this convo. This should go to the debate forums. Lol.

 

I'm leaving because... well.. when you bring up religion, some sort of argument is always bound to arise. If that argument could've been solved, I think it would've been hundreds of years ago. There's no point to debate.

 

On one final word: I didn't mean to offend anybody. In fact, I think at one time or another everybody brought up points that I thought were valid, even if I disagreed in the long-run with their general view.

 

I think we all hold some validity in our statements... which makes it so hard for any one person to seem undeniably right over-all. In life, the only certainty is uncertainty.

 

The Old Testament, New Testament, and the Qur'an were all written by human hands. The authors were doing the same thing we do now: trying to make sense of it all. Trying to understand the universe. Is everything in each book straight from the mouth of "God"? Probably not. Do the books each have some valid standards by which to live life? Yeah. That's what counts. Is there a single God who is specifically in the exact semblance of the Buddhist, Christian, or Muslim's? Nope. Chances are, all our religions are wrong when it comes to specifics. But it's the general things that share a common view, since we all ask the same common question. Regardless of race or creed, we all share a brotherhood of humanity.

 

Later.