What is the one true faith (or lack thereof)?

[consolation]

Not any text but possibly others.

The bible is different. It says there were X number of people here on this day at this time and then on another passage it says there were Y. And that's worrying.

Show me somewhere where the Qur'an does the same.

 

You are missing the point; the lack of contradictions does not matter - it's the interpretations that matter. Religious scrolls are inherently living texts, interpreted (+ written if we were to be honest about it) and used by human being; this makes any claim to them being the one "true" word of god(s) fairly ridiculous, you are getting the one "true" word of whatever religious authority happens to be at hand. Like it or not you end up following someone else's agenda.

[Ouch]

I think what Mash may be referring to is the "God is everything" + "God is pure good" paradox

 

If God is pure good, why, since he is all-powerful, does he allow bad to exist?

 

EDIT: One explanation I've heard is that God wants Satan to exist in order to prove that God is pure good. Which doesnt make sense, since good shouldnt want to allow evil free reign. It's circular logic.

 

Obviously this doesnt directly correlate to Islam, but I think you can see the direction I'm going.

 

The problem is that you are looking on this with a view that morality is external to God - when in actual fact morality is defined by God.

Therefore the whole God is good/God allows evil thing is quite simple really. Evil is anything which God does not approve of, evil could only cease to exist altogether if God decided to approve of everything - but since he loves his creation he obviously isn't going to approve of things he knows will hurt us.

 

God allows us to act in evil ways because he created us with free will - if he removed out ability to choose badly then we cease to have free will - which wasn't what he wanted for us. The overall message of the gospel is that God will only tolerate these evil acts for a short period time - and when he can tollerate them no longer Christ will return to rescue his people from it.

[killbot1000]

Im sorry, but morality IS external from god. God giving divine rule is only one theory of morality, there are countless others that have nothing to do with god, and therefore would be presumptuous to assume. An excellent example of this is utilitarianism. The assumption that all morality comes from god is kind of (for lack of a better word) stupid to say.

[Mebster]

You are missing the point; the lack of contradictions does not matter - it's the interpretations that matter. Religious scrolls are inherently living texts, interpreted (+ written if we were to be honest about it) and used by human being; this makes any claim to them being the one "true" word of god(s) fairly ridiculous, you are getting the one "true" word of whatever religious authority happens to be at hand. Like it or not you end up following someone else's agenda.

 

I'm going to talk from a Muslim point of view here:

How on earth can the lack of contradiction not matter when you know that the person who was given these revelations was illiterate? And the fact that the Qur'an has survived 1400 years without any contradictions appearing (like the bible has) is a miracle in itself.

 

There not really worth much if the person who they were revealed to was unable to live them. And the fact that they are able to and do live them only means it’s not a bunch of impossible commands which would be babble.

___________________________________________

Ouch I totally agree. Also we are sent here to be tested on. To see if we could abstain from the evil and go towards good. There would be really no point of a test if every time one was about to perform an evil act God stopped it happening. No one would ever fail. And hence everyone wins.

 

When everyone in your class gets an A and so do you. It's pointless.

[anandbatra]

I'm going to talk from a Muslim point of view here:

How on earth can the lack of contradiction not matter when you know that the person who was given these revelations was illiterate? And the fact that the Qur'an has survived 1400 years without any contradictions appearing (like the bible has) is a miracle in itself.

 

There not really worth much if the person who they were revealed to was unable to live them. And the fact that they are able to and do live them only means it’s not a bunch of impossible commands which would be babble.

___________________________________________

Ouch I totally agree. Also we are sent here to be tested on. To see if we could abstain from the evil and go towards good. There would be really no point of a test if every time one was about to perform an evil act God stopped it happening. No one would ever fail. And hence everyone wins.

 

When everyone in your class gets an A and so do you. It's pointless.

 

I haven't read the whole thread, but I guess you need to respect others faiths, too. What you might believe, the next person may not. Saying that the Bible has contradictions, and that is why Christianity is not a true faith, is wrong. I believe there is a need to respect others' beliefs as much as your own beliefs.

 

I think imposing one's views on another person is wrong.

 

BTW, i believe that this thread is meaningless. There is no one true faith. There are many faiths, and I think all of them are equal. Each religion teaches a person to be rational and peaceful.

[killbot1000]

I started this thread as kind of a joke, but its turned into a good debate arena, I think.

[wildcat69410]

I started this thread as kind of a joke, but its turned into a good debate arena, I think.

 

Even I agree with you there. As long as we try to stay away from the "my religion is right because yours is wrong" statements, and actually debate theology and contradictions on a serious level, we can come to some very interesting conclusions. All of which are debatable, .

[Ouch]

Im sorry, but morality IS external from god. God giving divine rule is only one theory of morality, there are countless others that have nothing to do with god, and therefore would be presumptuous to assume. An excellent example of this is utilitarianism. The assumption that all morality comes from god is kind of (for lack of a better word) stupid to say.

Well obviously if you don't believe in God then it is "stupid" - but i was merely explaining why Christians don't see the God is good/God allows evil argument as a contradiction, if I believe that God created everything then I logically have to believe that God defines morality.

 

I haven't read the whole thread, but I guess you need to respect others faiths, too. What you might believe, the next person may not. Saying that the Bible has contradictions, and that is why Christianity is not a true faith, is wrong. I believe there is a need to respect others' beliefs as much as your own beliefs.

I don't have any problem with AcePlayer saying Christianity is wrong - disagreeing with a belief is not the same as disrespecting it. It's a shame that a time is coming when nobody will be allowed to disagree with anyone anymore lest they be branded intollerant - that will be a very sad day.

[quixos]

Quran...

 

http://www.infolink-islam.de/Main///Quran/Contra/index.html

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

Bible...

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

both religious books are rife with contradictions and errors.

[Ouch]

I think the main difference between christianity and islam is that the quran is considered to be perfect - the actual words of God as written by the muhammed. Christians consider the bible a collection of testimonies by prophets/apostles etc - if there are contradictions in the bible, which there are - although none of them are faith shaking - then i can accept that because ultimately human recollection etc can be flawed. It's much harder for a muslim to accept that the quran can contain errors because of the belief that it is perfect.

 

(I am slightly amused by the fact that there are apparently more Jedis than there are Jews on this forum!)

[gwprod12]

Many Christians believe the bible to be inerrant. As in perfect.

[Mebster]

I don't have any problem with AcePlayer saying Christianity is wrong - disagreeing with a belief is not the same as disrespecting it. It's a shame that a time is coming when nobody will be allowed to disagree with anyone anymore lest they be branded intollerant - that will be a very sad day.

Thank you. I couldn't be bothered on explaining how odd anandbatra's statement was. The problem is a lot of these opinions are coming from people who do not believe in God. And so it's more of the same.

 

If you believe in God and that God has sent down a SINGLE religion that for man then they can't all be right. It's just (for lack of a better word) stupid for me to say Christianity or another other religion is not wrong just as it would be for Ouch Potato to not say and think that Islam isn't wrong. Otherwise he would be Muslim and I would be a Christian.

 

What we both can and should say is that we have RESPECT for each others religions which i do and i believe Outch does too. That's what’s important here.

[anandbatra]

The problem is a lot of these opinions are coming from people who do not believe in God. And so it's more of the same.

 

So, if I think some other person's faith is equal to mine, I'm an atheist? Very weird logic.

 

But, I place my country and my region before my religion. It's not as important to me as my country and my region are.

 

That's, probably, got to do with the fact that I believe I'd be a much better person if I do something more worthwhile than praying to gods(We've got a total of 33,00,00,000 of 'em in my religion ).

 

I did not mean to say that you can/can not agree/disagree with certain faiths. What I meant to say was that we should not cross the line while debating. Sorry to not have made that clear in the first place.

 

There is a great article by an Indian revolutionary, Bhagat Singh, in which he asks us to question our faith, and not follow anything blindly just because our ancestors did so. I think this article deserves a read. Link: http://www.boloji.com/spirituality/051.htm

 

This guy was hanged, at the age of 24, by the then British India Government.

[lord_muad_dib]

[ot]i'm the Kwisatz Haderach! believe in me!

 

i voted for the Jedi... [/ot]

[gwprod12]

Kwisatz Haderach is the one true faith. Die Heretics!

[Mebster]

So, if I think some other person's faith is equal to mine, I'm an atheist? Very weird logic.

Exacty when did "a lot" become "all"?

 

____________________________________________________

Ouch, not written by the prophet. He was illiterate. But yeah having contradictions in the Qur’an is a big shake up as Muslims believe the Qur’an to be the direct word of Allah.

 

I honestly don’t understand and probably never will understand how Christians are able to take the holy bible as holy if it contains contradictions. The Bible equates to Hadiths in Islam which is a record of how the Prophets Muhammad (pbuh) lived his live. These are not the words of Allah but his companions (those closest to him). Muslims follow these but mainly only the ones which are considered authentic as not all are and so do not consider them to be anywhere as holy as the Quran.

If someone told me there are contradictions in some Hadiths I would be like “so what? They’re hadiths. It’s not Gods words.” I don’t understand how a Christian can say “yeah well we got a few contradictions here and there but overall it’s intact.”

[gwprod12]

Most Christians dont believe there ARE contradictions.

 

Passage one might say "Jesus had 2 arms" and Passage two might say "Jesus had 8 arms".

 

To most Christians, those two statements arent contradictory at all. They're perfectly consistent.

 

How can that be? Because the first passage refers to Jesus' physical arms, and the second passage refers to his spiritual arms, or the arms of himself and his primary 3 disciples, or some other such nonsense.

 

When two statements seem contradictory, a large coreography is established to justify how they arent.

 

So, it's not that most Christians just overlook the contradictions, which would boggle my mind as well, they simply dont see them.

 

A good example is when the passage about the rich man is compared to the psalm of talents. Jesus clearly says that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven (after previously saying that the rich have their reward on earth, and none in heaven). Most Christians interpret that statement to mean that Rich people can get into heaven by bowing, because the eye of the needle is a gate that is very low (instead of being the eye of a needle, which, if you've ever seen a needle, makes 100 times more sense) +boggles+

[Ouch]

I don't know what Christians you've been talking to but they seem to have left there brains behind - no one who is litterate can deny the bible has contradictions. I don't believe the bible is completely without error - but i believe God is and that the bible can only be interpreted with the guidance of His Holy Spirit which protects Christians from wrongly interpretingm .

 

I'm not sure i understand your previous example - the statement that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven is a reference to the fact that the more you have in the way of earthly treasures the harder it is to give them up and count them as worthless. It's a metaphor. The fact that the rich have their reward on earth and not in heaven is complimentary, indicating that making earthly riches your priority is incompatible with making God your priority. I don't see the contradiction here.

[gwprod12]

To anyone with a brain, the statement "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven" clearly means "If you're rich, you're not going to heaven".

 

If you'll do a quick google search, you'll find that a vast number of people believe that the statement does not, in fact, condemn being rich, but actually encourages it.

 

http://www.debunker.com/texts/needleye.html

 

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

 

http://www.shamar.org/articles/camel-needle.php

 

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimat...33;t=001077;p=1

 

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/needle.html

 

Maybe British culture is different than that of the US, but here, you'll find that most serious Christians believe the bible is utterly inerrant.

 

I talked to one a while back, and I said to him: "What would happen if a scribe had made a typo when copying the bible, to turn one statement into another? Wouldnt that make the bible errant?"

 

The response I got was "No, a scribe cannot make a typo. God would stop him, unless God wanted him to make that typo."

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerran4.htm

[Zealot]

i will go for taoism is the nearest to me.

 

that desnt mean me being taoist.

 

i do not beliebe in gods.

[killbot1000]

Eh.....Why dont more people use their heads for once and stop being a bunch of sheep...I fail to understand it.

[PimpMyMac]

The one true faith.. easy.. I'd vote for gravity if it were an option.

[Ouch]

It could be arranged...

 

To anyone with a brain, the statement "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven" clearly means "If you're rich, you're not going to heaven".

 

I agree with the literal interpretation that he is refering to an actual needle, not a gate - but that doesn't mean being wealthy means you aren't going to heaven - God may provide you with wealth, but you should never value it above God.

[Mebster]

If a book has contradictions then it seems odd to follow it.

Would I follow a text book for school/college/uni if I knew it had mistakes in it? I wouldn't.

 

And the bible is something you lead your life by. So that makes it that much harder to follow without worrying about what you're doing.

 

Christians consider the bible a collection of testimonies by prophets/apostles etc - if there are contradictions in the bible, which there are - although none of them are faith shaking - then i can accept that because ultimately human recollection etc can be flawed

I'm sure the people who gave their testimonies are honest people but was their testimonies verified? How do we know they didn't forget something or add something by mistake? For this reason in some sections it seems like Jesus is God and others it seems like his the Son of God. These are major contradictions for me would be faith shaking. And then you have the other ones which are numerical contradictions.

 

Bible is probably a great book and one that will probably make a person lead a better life. But to follow it as a religion is something else in my view.

 

Once again it's similar to Hadiths in Islam but hadiths were checked and double checked and checked again and again by the writer. For this reason you have ones which are considered extremely authentic and others much less do. Hadiths have contradictions in them and no one denies that. For this simple reason we do not follow it without question as it's not anywhere as Holy as the Qur'an.

[Ouch]

I'm sure the people who gave their testimonies are honest people but was their testimonies verified? How do we know they didn't forget something or add something by mistake? For this reason in some sections it seems like Jesus is God and others it seems like his the son of God. These are major situations and for me would be faith shaking.

 

You're right, we have to verify testimonies - which we do by not relying on one persons version - hence we have 4 gospels, numerous letters to churches regarding doctrine written by different people and we can compare new testement accounts to old testiment prophecy etc. I would never pick a single verse from the bible and use it to justify a particular belief, but if there are a number of concurring verses then i think it's safe. I could get into a theological explanation of how Jesus is demostrated as being both fully God and fully human but this topic isn't really the place.