2nd NSA Spy Center at ATT in Saint Louis

[cyrana]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/06/...a/index_np.html

 

[OryHara]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/06/...a/index_np.html

 

I read about this a few weeks ago. Scary. Thank god im on Cable with VOiP.

[cyrana]

No, this is a new development, the one from a few weeks ago was just for a data center in San Francisco.

[domino]

I don't doubt that at all, along with hiring other government to do interrogations on detainees so the current admin doesn't have to wash there hands at the end of the day. One thing's for sure, Rumsfeld needs to leave.

[OryHara]

No, this is a new development, the one from a few weeks ago was just for a data center in San Francisco.

How can we stop this Cyrana? I mean really. Any ideas? Im tired of trying to come up with stuff. Ive brainstormed, meditated, and can come up with nothing legal. I call my representatives almost every 2 weeks now, and NOTHING makes a difference. Just look at S2686 comming up, and tell me how terrible that is. They are trying to sneak broadcast flag wording in a bill that has nothing to do with the bill in question.

 

Yes, I could organize. I actually caused the lowest turnout of votes in this county's history when the Diebold machines were introduced into our county. I scared the majority of the population into not voting, and defeated the circuit clerk's office in the local paper. Only %2 of registered voters showed up at the polls for state runnups. Normally it is %10 or higher. Our county is mostly old democrats scared of technology, and they should be. Most have signed a petition not to vote untill the Diebold machines are gone, and Windows is removed from all voting systems in the county. Now all the Republican's here are scared to death of what I might go against next.

 

Back on topic. Is it possible to even make a dent in the government? How can one change this without going into the game, and gain power? I want some ideas. The things I read everyday about the direction this country is heading makes me sick to my stomach. I wake up with a gutt ache, asking God, What are they going to do to us today? When I flip the channel on C-SPAN, or read Slashdot, I get my answers.

 

I believe if everyone here brainstormed, we would come up with some very good ideas. Although we all may not agree on everything, we agree on most things. If we want to change things, then we will have to take a few minutes out of our day to make it happen. Freedom disappears when you don't fight. You have to fight everyday to keep your freedom.

[cyrana]

I don't know, I think we need some fundamental changes in our government. The founding fathers have to be turning over in their graves.

 

The 'average' American just doesn't care about anything other than hiding from {censored} and 'keeping safe' at the loss of their liberty, which really doesn't help any of this. I think this is the biggest problem (other than the corporate ownership of our gov't, which is the 1st step in Fascism).

[gwprod12]

Well. Let's all do something then.

 

Just make sure that the freedom you want isnt the freedom to take other people's freedoms away from them.

[OryHara]

I don't know, I think we need some fundamental changes in our government. The founding fathers have to be turning over in their graves.

 

The 'average' American just doesn't care about anything other than hiding from {censored} and 'keeping safe' at the loss of their liberty, which really doesn't help any of this. I think this is the biggest problem (other than the corporate ownership of our gov't, which is the 1st step in Fascism).

 

Its like this thing with AT&T why arn't all of these making the 'big' news? They want to put {censored} marriage, stem cell research, abortion, and other general issues in the big spotlight. Why not this? Why did they not go absolutely insane when Bush's motorcade aimed those M18s at protesters in Florida? Why havn't they put the broadcast flag in the spotlight? People would be outraged if they knew 1/2 this stuff. AT&T's incident affects EVERYONE. Not just those that are dumb enough to use AT&T, but everyone the people that use AT&T call as well. I called my mother and had her cancel her AT&T account the day that happened, and when they asked why. She told them. They denied it, but she doesn't put up with {censored} from people. Especially F500 companies. She knows better. Preschool teachers know when someone is lying.

 

I guess it comes down to that 'i have nothing to hide' {censored}. Oh yea, They will care when the US makes what they are doing illegal. And people start getting arrested for calling another country that the gov doesn't lilke. Or whatever it may be.

[jgrimes80]

If you're not doing anything illegal... what's the problem???

 

You are provided a service by a COMPANY and that COMPANY does not have any responsibility to ensure your "privacy." You do NOT owned the internet, simply a subscription to access it. Just like getting on a bus... the little sign that says you may be on video.

 

Just like I have no "right" to be a member of this forum, Mashugly can revoke at anytime for any reason, and if he wanted to post up my IP/address/carrier, he can... despite the fact that would be really wrong

 

To bash the NSA on this matter would be like...

That's like saying (in public), "Oh, that dude arcossed the street saw me hit my kid and called the cops... that's invasion of my privacy!"

 

"privacy" and it's meaning in the Constitution has already been trampled on... they're just stomping on crumbs now.

[gwprod12]

Everyone does something every day that could be construed as a crime.

 

If you cant find something you're doing that might get you sent to jail if an overzealous law-enforcement agency wanted you there, you arent thinking very hard.

[OryHara]

If you're not doing anything illegal... what's the problem???

Because AT&T is NOT my phone provider, and I never agreed to anything with AT&T, so AT&T has no right to send the NSA MY phone number under any circumstance, no matter if their customer called me or not. If they do, then they can be subject to criminal charges under trespassing, the computer fraud and abuse act, and privacy laws.

 

THAT is my problem. I never agreed to be spyed upon by AT&T, and I will not be spyed upon by AT&T.

 

I do no more Illegal stuff than you. Probably 20 broken laws a day average.

[jgrimes80]

Because AT&T is NOT my phone provider, and I never agreed to anything with AT&T, so AT&T has no right to send the NSA MY phone number under any circumstance, no matter if their customer called me or not. If they do, then they can be subject to criminal charges under trespassing, the computer fraud and abuse act, and privacy laws.

 

THAT is my problem. I never agreed to be spyed upon by AT&T, and I will not be spyed upon by AT&T.

 

I do no more Illegal stuff than you. Probably 20 broken laws a day average.

 

Well, my guess on the use for the room is to pursue power granted by the Patriot Act (which went through the entire federal government) if you want to complain... take a look at the Patriot Act, it enables the government to "wiretap" any cellular phone CONVERSATION without any confirmation by a judge.

 

AT&T isn't spying on you, the NSA is; The NSA which is controlled entirely by elected officials. YOUR phone number is a matter of record anyways... if you don't like it, call up your carrier; launch a litigation campaign. HELL, it's not YOUR phone number, it's your carrier's... the only one in position to complain would be the OWNER

 

Where in the constitution does it say AT&T it can't. In fact, it CAN and probably WILL. What privacy laws grant you sovereign ownership over a telephone number? Computer fraud? What the heck? The whole thing is no different than a cop sitting on the side of the road watching...

 

- I'll budge when they use the "legally" obtained information to indict people for anything short of treason. THAT will {censored} me off...

[WiZMaC]

Why am I not surprised @ all?! Something stinks and is royally wrong here...

 

This is yet another proof of the the preparations that the US government is making for preparing America and the World for the 'New World Order'

[OryHara]

Where in the constitution does it say AT&T it can't. In fact, it CAN and probably WILL. What privacy laws grant you sovereign ownership over a telephone number? Computer fraud? What the heck? The whole thing is no different than a cop sitting on the side of the road watching...

There was a law passed in 2004 that said we DO own our numbers, and we can take them with us when we switch providers, in fact, the company can be fined if they don't switch it within 24 hours of the request. So therefor your phone number is your property.

 

I use VOiP, so in conclusion that would fall under the computer fraud and abuse act since it is considered an 'networked connection', and gaining access to a 'computer device' (VOIP box that runs Linux) without permission. IANAL but I know a bit about it, since I talk to mine a lot. The law is all about how you interprete it.

 

So if AT&T taps my VOIP box, and intercepts my conversation without my permission, then they can be held under criminal charges. There were also laws passed back in the 80s to restrict AT&T from doing {censored} like this without the customer's permission, or without a judicial warrent. At this point it may be a matter of finding some pissed-off rich person to step up to the plate and just sue them.

 

The problem is not the NSA. I would expect this from the NSA. But AT&T is not the government. They are just a company. Like mine. You wouln't like it if I tapped your phone line, and sent your private calls off the the NSA.

[cyrana]

A policeman sitting on the side of the road watching doesn't know where you are going, and he can't by law make you tell him exactly where you are going. That's private. Plus, the constitution doesn't explicitely have to say something to have it be covered by it. Lots of constitutional lawyers argue about this to some degree, but I the 9th Amendment has some relation to all this:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

This page is also kind of interesting: http://www.answers.com/topic/amendment-ix-...-s-constitution as it shows some of the history and reasoning behind the amendment.

 

Plus, since they won't really admit to anything here, how do you know they really only kept a list of numbers? If all this was so cut and dry and legal, they'd not be pulling this state secrets BS. Since they've already said before what they say are the details of the warrantless wiretapping and the whole world knows about it, it's not like it will 'help the terrorists'. All the developments in the last few years certainly would make James Madison turn over in his grave (along with most of the founding fathers):

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.

[jgrimes80]

Like I said earlier, it's probably under the jurisdiction granted by the Patriot Act... in which case, AT&T MUST comply with demands made by the government; Yahoo, MSN, AltaVista (Google pending) have all been forced to turn over network data...

 

This isn't an AT&T problem, if anything, it's an NSA... but it's ran by elected officials, so I guess, in reality, the fault comes all the way back to us...

[gwprod12]

The problem with the executive powers used by the Bush administration is that there is no oversight. We dont even know what they're doing in order to determine if it's legal.

[OryHara]

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.

I could use this quote on a daily basis. Thanks Cyrana.

 

Like I said earlier, it's probably under the jurisdiction granted by the Patriot Act.

Another revelation. I din't think of the Pathetic Act. But on this scale? Does even the Pathetic Act alllow something on this grand of scale?

 

Hopefully after this 8 years of hell is over, the next president will rid us of this nightmare.

[Metrogirl]

There's a very fine line between protecting people and taking their rights away. One of the problems is that the government has to be seen to be doing something about the 'terrorist problem', yet the things they do are the very things that make us all uncomfortable. Certainly I don't want to be a victim of some terrorist attack, but I am more than tired of all the hassle at airports and the unbelievable power that the authorities have if they decide you are not a good person. Plenty of movies have portayed American innocents getting crushed by misguided laws, and they cannot all be based on fantasy.

 

I came to the US six years ago and was initially delighted that life here seems to be more free and less regulated than it was in my native Britain. I have realised over time that it's actually much more regulated, with more layers of control and legislation than you could imagine. While ever you stay visibly on the 'right side' of the law, most of that stuff won't ever affect you. But I dread falling foul of the system, like the occasion I argued with an airline official and stopped quickly when she threatened to call Security, because I would expect no mercy - or even real justice - if I inadvertently crossed that threshold.

 

I have a lot of faith in the US system, in fact if I'd been here in 1776 I'd have been lining up to sign the Declaration of Independence myself. One of the reasons I chose to stay here is that I think "King Tony" has mortally wounded the hard-working British populace with taxation, though that's completely off topic. (As an aside, I honestly believe that if more British people knew how much cheaper things are here, how much lower taxes are, and how much better paid you are for doing the same work, they'd be up in arms against their government.) However I agree with Cyrana totally, the Founding Fathers would turn over in their graves if they could see how their fair and free society had degenerated into a regulated, secretive, litigation-orientated confusion.

 

America is still the country I love, but there is certainly a dark undertow of faceless, all-powerful individuals with no clear accountability. I think those NSA spy centers (sic) are the tip of the iceberg. But we must all be grateful we don't live under a regime that is far more intrusive than this one.

 

Edit - after I wrote this, I realised that there was an unstated message that I was trying to get across. It's this: If I were to be accused of doing something wrong, I believe I would have an infinitely better chance of proving my innocence under British justice than American. I'd probably be able to afford an English lawyer too, and I'm not sure I could afford an American one!

[OryHara]

But I dread falling foul of the system, like the occasion I argued with an airline official and stopped quickly when she threatened to call Security, because I would expect no mercy - or even real justice - if I inadvertently crossed that threshold.

What was it about?

 

I was traveling with a few friends to NJ last summer on business, one is actually a laywer. After they went through all our stuff, and treated us like criminals, the rather large security woman at the gate broke the hinge on my iBook's screen after she opened the leather bag rather roughly, and it fell on the floor. Mike immediatly demanded the airport pay for the repairs, and loss of time, or face litigation. The woman called security after he said that, they took Mike to a room wher the security guard broke his nose, and now the Airport is facing litigation for harrassment, damage to private property, assault and battery, and since 3 months ago, threatning mike & myself. The 2 security guards are facing jail time, and the airport (United) is being sued for medical bills for Mike's nose, and my iBook, both are rather expensive.

 

That night we had both the security guards arrested, and are facing 5-10, and the large woman was taken off as well for threatening us, she was in jail for 30 days, and faced 6 months community service. The lawsuite with United is still pending.

[Metrogirl]

Don't know if this has been reported elsewhere on the forum, but last week the New York Times reported on the US Government's acquisition of EVERY banking transaction recorded by SWIFT, the global exchange system.

 

WASHINGTON, June 23 — The White House vigorously defended today a secret

program of combing through a vast international data base containing

banking transactions involving thousands of Americans. Vice President

{censored} Cheney and other officials said the program, whose existence was

revealed on Thursday night by The New York Times, was both legal and

necessary to deter terrorism.

 

Treasury Secretary John Snow, in his first public remarks about the

program, called it "government at its best." He told reporters that the

operation was carefully controlled to trace only those transactions with

an identifiable link to possible terrorist activity.

 

"There can't be any doubt about the fact that the program is an

effective weapon, an effective weapon in the larger war on terror," he

said. "It's for that reason that these disclosures of the particular

sources and methods are so regrettable."

 

...

 

Mr. Snow derided criticisms of the program as "entirely abstract in

nature." He said it had been subjected to outside auditing, and that the

president did not need to seek authorization from Congress for it.

 

"Let me tell you why this is important: it works," Mr. Snow said. "It is

sought only for terrorism investigations. A series of safeguards have

been put in place."

 

The banking consortium, known as Swift, that maintains the database gave

no sign today that it was rethinking its relationship with the American

government, despite the sudden glare of publicity aimed at an

organization that generally keeps a very low profile.

 

...

 

 

Swift has said that its role in the program was never voluntary, that it

was obligated to comply with a valid subpoena presented by American

officials, and that it worked to narrow the range of data it provided.

 

But Secretary Snow offered a different account at a news conference

today. He said that after the Sept. 11 attacks, Treasury officials

initially presented Swift with "really narrowly crafted subpoenas all

tied to terrorism," only to be told by Swift that it did not have the

ability to "extract the particular information from their broad data

base."

 

"So they said, 'we'll give you all the data,' " Secretary Snow said.

 

So it's not just our communication records which are in government hands, it's our financial transactions too. As we all know, something put in place for one purpose gets used for something else later. Bear in mind that wherever you live in the world, the US Government now knows about every transfer you made between accounts, even paying your electricity bill. What price the Constitution now?

 

The full story is here but you need to register with the NYTimes to read it.

 

To OryHara - good for you! My incident was trivial - I crossed a dividing line to help my arriving brother with his luggage, right by the exit door in the public area at Newark. Technically I should not have walked a few feet past a sign which said "Meeters and Greeters stop here" so I wasn't in a good position to argue, though I tried pointing out rather determinedly that she was being needlessly officious and I wasn't causing any possible security threat. Normally I'd just have grabbed his case and walked off, but the Continental Airlines woman started threatening me (she physically stood in my way and ordered me to put the case down, or she'd call Security) and then she waved to two cops who were loafing around by the door (they didn't notice). I gave up and watched him struggle with his three large bags to where I was supposed to wait. As you have so amply illustrated, airport staff are all powerful. At least you have shown that they are accountable in the end. Thanks for sharing that breath of fresh air!

[cyrana]

What's even scarier is that the gov't wants to make it so the NY Times and other papers that reported on this last item (that metrogirl just posted about) are able to be prosecuted.

 

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/ne...t_id=1002727811

[bwhsh8r]

That sucks, and dont worry, you will win the lawsuit... unless you really f up... then your sol...

 

 

 

good luck

 

max