Chris Mills Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 People don't understand why Apple is more expensive, Let me explain this for people who think that because their are using Intel their are regular PC's. First, Apple have their own engineer team, they use customized high quality Motherboard in which they add advanced technology built in like EFI. They use high quality material in their hardware plus the World's most advanced OS, Mac OS X. You guys got it why they are more expensive? You have a better quality machine in which the Hardware and Software is supported by the same company, so What Psystar is trying to do is really ridiculous, Apple should continue doing what their are doing because that's their business philosophy. Umm as far as I know Intel designed the architecture. Foxconn make the MoBo, it is built in China (just like every other PC), the components are not higher quality (indeed 90% of parts are of the shelf) and EFi is going to be on PC MoBos soon and isn't really advanced technology, and OS X is cheaper to buy than Vista! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro17 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 You are kidding right? In most european countries a lot of people do not make more than 1500k a month (1000$ for unqualified jobs) And in Italy it is even worse. A lot of people with a degree (they have to study at least 5 years for it) won't earn more than € 1200 a month, 1300 if they are lucky. So a MacBook Pro will cost them 2 months salary. Apple has this price policy in Europe because it is selling it's products to a niche market of wealthy people. The prices are so ridiculously high it's not even funny. Soon here a Mac will cost 3 times the price of a similar performing PC. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solaar Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 You are kidding right? In most european countries a lot of people do not make more than 1500k a month (1000$ for unqualified jobs), I can tell you that USA has a lot more rich and wealthy people. In countries like France and Italy, long term job contracts are things of the past, people are hired for 3 to 6 months at the time and their contract is renewed if needed, if not they are laid off from one day to the other. I'm not kidding at all. I've been living in the US for a few years and I still regularly visit. Store staff there work for $6-8 /hour and variably at 'impossible' times, ie. till 9pm on weekends. You won't find anybody in Europe to work at those times for that salary, I bet you. Especially not in CH - where I live too btw I have France right across the lake. I know that their salaries are not as high as on this side but to divide it by 3 is bollocks. Talk about a 30% difference average and we agree. And your MacDo costs you a tenner because the premises it is made in, the shipping of the materials, the electricity, the people who make it etc all cost more than the equivalent in the US. You know as well as me that costs for virtually everything are high over here, energy (you mentioned it) and utilities, rental space, transportation and logistics and it not only applies to private persons but also to companies. I reckon where the culprit really is, is that global US companies with a strong brand recognition seem to calculate their overseas prices according to the highest denominator (which is usually the UK and Japan) and give a rat's arse about the lowest common denominator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro17 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 You know as well as me that costs for virtually everything are high over here, energy (you mentioned it) and utilities, rental space, transportation and logistics and it not only applies to private persons but also to companies. Solaar, that doesn't explain in any way why Macs cost almost 3 times the price of a PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Mills Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Sorry to be so negative, but if this goes through apple could screw you all out of osx86. Macs have had built in hardware decoders to increase the performance and reliability of quicktime, itunes, garageband, recording software, etc. It also powers core video. (why I have not seen one hackintosh with core video working, aka the black hole in time machine being animated). It also makes it run windows better than computers designed for windows of the same specs. That Chip is proprietary. Also macs do not use bois. They use efi which is way different. (there are few pcs that have an efi capable motherboard. So apple at any time could make that decoder chip mandatory for startup. Thus screwing all OSx86. The way that they got macintosh to run on the pc your using is by emulating the efi. However it would be next to impossible to emulate that decoder chip without serious performance issues. Once again sorry for being so negative. Just reminding you your in dangerous waters. Core Image not working...... hmmz Let me post a screen shot for you. Have you ever seen a Mac Pro with Intel GMA 950??... BTW Core Video is a purely software component of Quicktime 7. So yet again proof that Apple is using off the shelf components... The only specialist part is a small amount of code in the EFI. This case isn't open and shut, and it could be argued successfully on Psystar's part. It is a long shot but there is enough there for them to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nano2k Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 And in Italy it is even worse. A lot of people with a degree (they have to study at least 5 years for it) won't earn more than € 1200 a month, 1300 if they are lucky. So a MacBook Pro will cost them 2 months salary. Even worse in the south of Italy were work is scarce, some employers officially employ you for 1000€ but in reality they only give you 500€ the rest they keep for themselves, of course they deduct the full 1000€ from the taxes. If you are not happy fine, there is 20 people waiting to take the job at the same conditions. This is not widespread but it exists, especially for unqualified jobs. In the US with what 6.50$ minimum wage? that's not going to get you that Macbook anytime soon. It's probably the most social class distinctive product of the moment as it a consumer product only the wealthy can afford. The poor with their Costco 300$ laptop and the wealthy with the big 4x4 car with chrome 24inch wheel, the bling bling, the Ipod, the Iphone and the Macbook all diamond encrusted of course LOL. Soon the rappers are going to drop the italian luxury cars for Macbook airs and Iphones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InteliMac Pro Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Solaar, that doesn't explain in any way why Macs cost almost 3 times the price of a PC. Well I'm sure that tariffs and taxes play a small part in the equation. Man this thing is veering off-topic fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Mills Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 I don't expect Porsche to restrict what the engine gets installed in, but what if they did? What if they said you can't buy a Porsche engine unless it goes in a Porsche car (EULA argument)? Is that illegal? What if they only sell the engine to an existing Porsche customer (upgrade argument)? Is that illegal? I'm not a lawyer, so I'm waiting to see what the courts say. My crude analogy stands (albeit we're talking hardware vs. software). Yes it's illegal. Well I'm sure that tariffs and taxes play a small part in the equation. Man this thing is veering off-topic fast. The same tariffs and taxes apply to PCs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro17 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Even worse in the south of Italy were work is scarce, some employers officially employ you for 1000€ but in reality they only give you 500€ the rest they keep for themselves, of course they deduct the full 1000€ from the taxes. If you are not happy fine, there is 20 people waiting to take the job at the same conditions. This is not widespread but it exists, especially for unqualified jobs. I should know, it is where I live. And most people are not engaged and earn € 500 a month. And it is quite widespread, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solaar Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Solaar, that doesn't explain in any way why Macs cost almost 3 times the price of a PC. No that only explains the price difference of Macs in the US and elsewhere. If someone took the time to do more detailed research he will certainly find the reason why PCs are so cheap, or let's rather say became so cheap over time, as opposed to Macs. It depends on where you come from. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Apple in their pricing policies, just realistically and practically speaking - in 2006 I compared in depth several laptops and one of them was the MacBook. For the same specs, size, weight, display, customer support etc I only had one other alternative (don't recall what it was, I suppose a Tosh), I was at $1200 for the MacBook as opposed to $1100 for the other one. It all depends on how you're looking at things. I define my requirements first and then after go on about how to get there by comparing different alternatives that are in fact a fair comparison, also in the price range. Of course if you only look at absolute figures of extremes that exist on the market you'll always find absurdities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nano2k Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Well I'm sure that tariffs and taxes play a small part in the equation. Man this thing is veering off-topic fast. Yes it s veering of topic because some people keep constantly trying to justify what cannot be justified. Europe is not a banana republic with 50% taxes. So stop trying to find futile arguments. European customers are not as tough as US customers, there is not as much competition as in the US in every economic field and the national markets are smaller. So Apple know they can do price gouging and get away with it. Apple US price = 1000$, Europe price = 1000€ = 1469$ and that is a fact. On the contrary PC computers and components can be found very close in price as what you can find in the US. I should know, it is where I live. And most people are not engaged and earn € 500 a month. And it is quite widespread, actually. Haha I didn't want to hurt your feelings and give a too bad image of the country LOL (I'm half Sicilian from Siracusa). As the saying goes in the south "E tutta na Mafia"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dillon31292 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 The only good value for money Mac is the Mac Pro, but that is, provided you buy all the extras and upgrades somewhere else. Besides, it is overkill for most. You've got things a bit backwards there. The iMac is not overpriced. Compare it to similar computers, you'll find that it is usually ~$400-800 less than the competition. The MacBooks are not overpriced. They tend to be $100 over those of opposing vendors. The MacBook Pros are hardly overpriced either. They're on par with Dell anyways. The MacBook Air is about the same price as similar-sized notebooks. The only overpriced Macs are the Mac Pro and Mac Mini. The Pro is usually about double or triple the price of a similarly specced PC, and the Mac Mini is just {censored} ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solaar Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Apple US price = 1000$, Europe price = 1000€ = 1469$ and that is a fact. On the contrary PC computers and components can be found very close in price as what you can find in the US. US salary = $10/h , EU salary = Euro 10/h for the same job. That's also a fact. (Although the 10 bucks in the US is often rather 8 than 10 for the same job.) It's no wonder that PC components are so cheap. Local dealers around the world can cut deals in huge quantities with the manufacturers or wholesales directly in the country of origin (which is usually somewhere in or near China). They don't have all that overhead to carry along what they have with Apple. Apple has an inflated cost structure, that's the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nano2k Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 You've got things a bit backwards there. The iMac is not overpriced. Compare it to similar computers, you'll find that it is usually ~$400-800 less than the competition. The MacBooks are not overpriced. They tend to be $100 over those of opposing vendors. The MacBook Pros are hardly overpriced either. They're on par with Dell anyways. The MacBook Air is about the same price as similar-sized notebooks. The only overpriced Macs are the Mac Pro and Mac Mini. The Pro is usually about double or triple the price of a similarly specced PC, and the Mac Mini is just {censored} ridiculous. There we go again... another one... I think we are better off debating wether god exists or not as we might be more successful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InteliMac Pro Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 The same tariffs and taxes apply to PCs... good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nano2k Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 US salary = $10/h , EU salary = Euro 10/h for the same job. That's also a fact. (Although the 10 bucks in the US is often rather 8 than 10 for the same job.) It's no wonder that PC components are so cheap. Local dealers around the world can cut deals in huge quantities with the manufacturers or wholesales directly in the country of origin (which is usually somewhere in or near China). They don't have all that overhead to carry along what they have with Apple. Apple has an inflated cost structure, that's the problem. My boss bought a Macbook Air, IMac and accessories on the Swiss Apple shop for a grand total of more than 8000$, everything shipped direct with UPS from China, so please stop fantasizing... They have everything manufactured and stocked in cheap old China with 1500$/year, 3days paid vacation/year and no social security employees just like everybody else is doing. Then he spent I dont know how much to buy parallels and Windows because the software we use at the company only works in Windows hahahaha without mentionning the ridiculous 200-300$ he spent for the air drive for the Macbook Air, yes you just paid 5000$ for this but you can't even install a program until you spend another 200-300$ hahaha so cost effective... At least he has not had the guts to charge the computers on the company accounts since most employees are using 5+years PC I built myself with cheap components, and they never crash either. Actually they sure crash less than is parallels Windows is crashing or he is stuck with the multicolor rotating balloon on the screen of his 24inch screen IMac. And if Europe is so good money, why don't you come over hahahah, have some fun, enjoy the groceries costing 2 times more than in US while spending 2 times more on fuel because of the 8$ a gallon. Macs are beautifull computers, but please stop trying to justify the price gouging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dillon31292 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 There we go again... another one... I think we are better off debating wether god exists or not as we might be more successful... There you go again, mouthing off as if you're a moderator. For the record, I don't care what OS X costs in other countries. This is a US issue with US prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nano2k Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 There you go again, mouthing off as if you're a moderator. For the record, I don't care what OS X costs in other countries. This is a US issue with US prices. Moderators are not here to mouth off they are here to moderate discussions... Are you running out of arguments? "This is a US issue with US prices" well you see just by using this sentence you are discrediting any argument you had or will have. So what's next if I demonstrate that Apple prices are too high in Kentucky you will say that it is not important but it's New Jersey that is important? You have to start thinking outside of the box you live in. USA is not the center of the world. And afaik it's not insanelymacUSA, it's just insanelymac and there are many contributors from all over the world if not more than the ones from USA, it's a global community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solaar Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 And if Europe is so good money, why don't you come over hahahah, have some fun, enjoy the groceries costing 2 times more than in US while spending 2 times more on fuel because of the 8$ a gallon. Thanks, as I mentioned I do live in Europe, citizen of bad ole CH to be precise. And yes, I did come back from the US after working there for a couple of years in the 90s. Well, the times where groceries cost half in the US are long gone. Same quality, same price, except for imports which are ridiculously expensive in the US these days. Fuel is one thing, but I don't need much of it since I use public transportation powered by electricity made from renewable sources. Anyway the fact remains, Apple do have that overhead, wherever they ship from. As I mentioned earlier, if Apple got into the Dell model, without any physical presence anywhere they could easily lower their prices. But then comes the bloody 'image' thing. I don't think we'll see an online-only presence of Apple anytime soon. (btw there are about a dozen Apple authorised resellers in Lausanne alone who carry mad amounts of stock, have dozens of Apple qualified staff heads etc...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InteliMac Pro Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 SO... How about that whole Psystar thing huh? I hear they're counter-suing Apple now. Crazy world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solaar Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 SO... How about that whole Psystar thing huh? I hear they're counter-suing Apple now. Crazy world. Oh yea psystar, sorry It would be naive to believe they are suing Apple for 'idealistic' reasons, so that everybody can install OSX anywhere they want and with the tools and hardware they may choose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InteliMac Pro Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 lol. Thanks solaar They're definitely doing it to try and save their own ass, it's just what this means to the OSX86 community as a whole that is interesting. If the EULA could just be found to be null and void so we could do this without being scared of Apple shutting it down it would be great. Nobody expects Apple to support it. Just look the other way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dillon31292 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 It would be naive to believe they are suing Apple for 'idealistic' reasons, so that everybody can install OSX anywhere they want and with the tools and hardware they may choose.. Definitely, though having a bs idealistic attitude may make them stronger in court. Moderators are not here to mouth off they are here to moderate discussions... Are you running out of arguments? Are you an idiot? Everything seems to go over your head. I know what moderators do, but you are not one and need to stop playing rent-a-mod. "This is a US issue with US prices" well you see just by using this sentence you are discrediting any argument you had or will have. So what's next if I demonstrate that Apple prices are too high in Kentucky you will say that it is not important but it's New Jersey that is important? You have to start thinking outside of the box you live in. USA is not the center of the world. And afaik it's not insanelymacUSA, it's just insanelymac and there are many contributors from all over the world if not more than the ones from USA, it's a global community. That's not the point. If you want to be somebody who {censored} about somebody else being off-topic you should stay as strictly on-topic as possible, otherwise you're a hypocrite. You think your {censored}-statements are so witty, when in fact you miss the point of everything said. It's hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solaar Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 lol. Thanks solaar They're definitely doing it to try and save their own ass, it's just what this means to the OSX86 community as a whole that is interesting. If the EULA could just be found to be null and void so we could do this without being scared of Apple shutting it down it would be great. Nobody expects Apple to support it. Just look the other way... I'm trying to imagine future implications and how far this could go. In the unlikely event psystar wins, what could it mean to end user licenses in general? If only once a court judges a particular EULA null and void, who'll be next to try their luck? There might be a wave of opportunists and hit-and-run scam artists trying to jump on some kind of bandwagon just to make a quick buck on the back of others. I'm not a developer but I work in the software industry (on reasonably priced stuff btw ) and I know that once certain rules that protect qualified work get softened, countless people could lose their jobs or will have to work for virtually nada, especially developers. And that just because a few unscrupulous greedy ones want to cash in big time. We'll see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro17 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 I'm trying to imagine future implications and how far this could go. In the unlikely event psystar wins, what could it mean to end user licenses in general? If only once a court judges a particular EULA null and void, who'll be next to try their luck? There might be a wave of opportunists and hit-and-run scam artists trying to jump on some kind of bandwagon just to make a quick buck on the back of others. I wouldn't worry if I were you. OS X Eula is potentially vulnerable because of the rather unusual clause that you can install it only on certain hardware. But even if Apple lost, that wouldn't mean the end of copyrights and intellectual property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts