The war in Iraq and Insurgents.

[capt_cope]

This post was prompted by a video my friend sent me a link for. *This is a pretty graphic and disturbing video. Watch at your own risk* Video

 

Now he was pretty clearly tickled pink about the outcome, as he saw fit to send it to me. But I have a hard time with it.

 

Let me start this off by stating: I support our armed forces. Period. I dis-agree with the war in Iraq, but I'll be damned before I condemn the actions of the men and women who are fighting and dying on my behalf. They have my undying gratitude.

 

 

But as I said, I don't like the war in Iraq. I have no trouble with war, especially when it's called for, as this one was. I do have a problem with the objectives set in this war. IMO we should have gone in, removed the threat, taken the oil, and left a note that read: "Perhaps you'll think twice before boasting about your WMD capabilities. -Uncle Sam" I don't belive we will EVER change the hearts and minds of the people, at least not for the better.

 

And as for insurgents... That's a tough one for me. On the one hand, they are trying to kill our soldiers, so {censored} em. Smoke them all. But on the other hand, if the tables were turned, if Iraq were the one with the might to invade our country... My friends and I would be loading up our guns and going to war insurgent style. I can, at least, understand why they do it. And I know I wouldn't think twice before doing the same if the tables were turned.

 

I don't even know how to sum it all up. I guess, I can just say that I appreciate what our soldiers are doing on my behalf, but DAMN. Why did we ever set such objectives in this war? Look how Desert Storm went. We went in, kicked some ass, got the hell out of there. This SHOULD have been Desert Storm II.

[apowerr]

I didn't support going into Iraq, I don't support the war now, but of course I support the troops. Now that have already gone in and royally {censored}ed their country, we shouldn't leave until it is in a suitable state to be self governing.

 

If we were invaded, of course many of us would go to war insurgent style. It's going to be that way when anyway gets invaded or kicked out of their home. I think no matter when we withdraw, that there will be some heavy infighting but after that things should stabilize and be decent for the Iraqi people. I can't see us needing to be there for any more than a year or so tops, as soon as we get the infrastructure *fully* restored we should get out.

 

By the way, that was a pretty crappy video.

[djet]

Just to be clear the Insurgency is only a small SMALL portion of the Iraqi population and its views are only supported by a small SMALL portion of the people there. Sure a large group there is against the U.S. being there but a lot less of them say that they should kill us for it.

 

Another thing is that if Hillary Clinton or Obama become president AND go for an immediete pullout or an irresponsible pullout I am moving to Texas, seceding from the Union, and making George Bush the president. No countries are openly harboring terrorists ever since we had a cowboy in the White House.

[killbot1000]

It's not a war, its an occupation, the sooner we realize that the sooner we can move forward with this conversation.

Another thing is that if Hillary Clinton or Obama become president AND go for an immediete pullout or an irresponsible pullout I am moving to Texas, seceding from the Union, and making George Bush the president. No countries are openly harboring terrorists ever since we had a cowboy in the White House.

Yeah...but ever since we had a cowboy in the office we have record amounts of debt, a sharp decrease in the standard of living, gas and oil prices through the roof, corrupt business practices that continue to proceed unabated, a tarnished image around the globe, the disappearance of the middle class. Given these downsides, I'd choose to deal with terrorism over these other things any day of the week.

 

Also, despite what's been told to us, the American public, what we're doing around the world has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. It is simply an excuse to implement a system of wealth transfer from the middle class to the rich banking interests of this country through war and increased spending, the faster we burn through dollars, the further in debt the public becomes to the federal reserve (a set of private banks).

 

This might sound a little overdone, but one of the main reasons why we are trying to occupy the middle east is in large part due to oil. Saddam Hussein in Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction, North Korea did and does still have NUCLEAR WEAPONS which are the ultimate weapon of mass destruction. Don't kid yourself for a moment by thinking that we went into Iraq for any kind of good reason except as an excuse to take as many resources as we can being an Empire.

 

Oil production across the globe has already peaked, meaning we can no longer produce more oil this year than we could last year, meaning the price of oil keeps shooting up. We are grabbing as much oil as we can before anybody else can touch it, or realize what's going on.

 

I can see the merit in this policy, but in reality what we should really do is just bite the bullet, focus massive amounts of research and energy into alternative energy sources, and in 10 years oil for our country will not matter nearly as much as it does now. Problem solved, everybody wins.

 

Also, I never asked these soldiers to go to Iraq and die for me over some non-existent reason. It is akin to Jesus dying for my "sins". It is ridiculous and not worth arguing, these people decided to join the military, they got sent to Iraq, many joined up BECAUSE they wanted to kill people in the misguided vision that they were helping their country.

 

I would fight to the death to protect what I know and love, but thats not what this is, this is an occupation, American Soldiers are the invaders. 4000 US soldiers dead, 600,000 Iraqis dead. Keep in mind that these 600,000 are PEOPLE just like any of us, they go to school, they have morals, they die, just like us, they have the same blood, etc. We have 600,000 needless deaths as payment for our 3000 or so that died during 9/11. All 600,000 of these people had nothing to do with 9/11. I guess US lives are just worth more than anybody else's...(sarcasm)

 

I am not anti-American, or anything of the sort. I just find it mind-boggling that we have in this country established a warped vision of patriotism and Americanism in which one is not considered patriotic unless they fly their flag outside their house, have bumper stickers that say things like "we support our troops", "these colors don't run", and "Power of Pride".

 

For one to be patriotic, we are required to follow the president in whatever he deems as patriotic, we must wear red white and blue pins on our clothing, we must say "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, and we are absolutely not patriotic unless we vote Republican. Are we really expected to swallow this sack of $hit.

 

Well screw ALL OF THAT. It doesn't matter, not one tiny bit. What REALLY matters, and what nobody seems to ever want to talk about is whats good for the people as a whole. We never make decisions based on what is good for Americans, and the rest of the world as a whole, we have deceptive, and hard to find morals, that are somehow presented to us in an abstract way and we are supposed to swallow it down in order to be accepted...No...I don't accept that.

 

I offer a different brand of patriotism, one which puts the needs of the people above any kind of abstract notion of patriotism or pride.

 

Good Day!

[apowerr]

Regarding Killbot and his post #4: May I have your babies? That post rocked, hard.

 

 

If it wasn't so large, I would Quote for Emphasis it =D

[killbot1000]

Regarding Killbot and his post #4: May I have your babies? That post rocked, hard.

 

You May!

[djet]

@4

 

I'm all right for you to be against the war but I do not think you have any right to condemn the soldiers as invaders and before you do that, go over there and do their job and ask the people that they protect if they appreciate them or not. If the Iraqis don't appreciate the American soldiers than that's fine, but I know that most of them do.

 

George Bush went to Iraq because Saddam claimed that he had WMD's and PBush might have gone for other reasons that had no merit and I am against that because he did not tell us. HOWEVER, should we have just stayed at home and hoped that Saddam was bluffing?

 

I do NOT appreciate it when someone downgrades the American soldier to a bloodthirsty mercenary:

many joined up BECAUSE they wanted to kill people in the misguided vision that they were helping their country.

American Soldiers are the invaders.

They are soldiers, they are following orders from their superiors, and President Bush is the ultimate superior so I have no problem with you claiming that he is misguided, bloodthirsty, whatever.... but it is not acceptable to condemn American soldiers to that.

 

600,000 are PEOPLE just like any of us, they go to school, they have morals, they die, just like us, they have the same blood,

600,000 Iraqis dead

Last time I checked the American soldiers have not killed 600,000 Iraqi civilians. Insurgents have. What is the primary American job right now? Keeping the country stable. How do they do this? By NOT allowing these civilians to be slaughtered. How about you ask them if they think we are killing them.

 

You claim that you know the real patriotism. I cannot think of anything more patriotic than serving in our country's military. I plan on doing it.

[killbot1000]

I'm all right for you to be against the war but I do not think you have any right to condemn the soldiers as invaders and before you do that, go over there and do their job and ask the people that they protect if they appreciate them or not. If the Iraqis don't appreciate the American soldiers than that's fine, but I know that most of them do.

 

George Bush went to Iraq because Saddam claimed that he had WMD's and PBush might have gone for other reasons that had no merit and I am against that because he did not tell us. HOWEVER, should we have just stayed at home and hoped that Saddam was bluffing?

 

I am not checking back into this topic because I really do NOT appreciate it when someone downgrades the American soldier to a bloodthirsty mercenary:

They are soldiers, they are following orders from their superiors, and President Bush is the ultimate superior so I have no problem with you claiming that he is misguided, bloodthirsty, whatever.... but it is not acceptable to condemn American soldiers to that.

Last time I checked the American soldiers have not killed 600,000 Iraqi civilians. Insurgents have. What is the primary American job right now? Keeping the country stable. How do they do this? By NOT allowing these civilians to be slaughtered. How about you ask them if they think we are killing them.

 

You claim that you know the real patriotism. I cannot think of anything more patriotic than serving in our country's military. I plan on doing it.

 

Saying one should do a job before one is able to judge is irrelevant. I have not been a mobster but I can still judge them for destabalizing communities...Soldiers are no different.

 

Saddam didn't say anything, therefore he couldn't be bluffing. And if he didnt have WMD's he COULDN'T bluff, no matter how much he wanted to. We should have waited until we had more actionable intelligence, just because a regime has WMD's doesn't mean they are going to immediately use them. Going into Iraq was initiated because Americans were still enraged after 9/11 and we wanted to blame somebody, Afghanistan wasn't a big enough target, why not Iraq? (I find it interesting how Afghanistan and Iraq both border Iran, if we ever wanted to take on Iran in the future, taking over Afghanistan and Iraq so that Iran would have to fight a war on two fronts would be a good way to do it.

 

I am not degrading the American soldier to bloodthirsty Mercenary, not at all. Your statement proves exactly what I have been talking about. We're not allowed in this country to criticize soldiers for anything, without the risk of being labeled traitors, idiots, dissenters, etc.

 

I have met plenty of soldiers in my time, many of them good people, many of them bad people, but one thing I can honestly asses is that most of the soldiers that I have met, on average, tend to be a little dim. If you have to follow orders all the time, it pays to be dim. The disadvantage of being dim though is that one might not be able to differenciate between a legitimate order, or otherwise. You are doing what most Americans do, you are putting your blinders on and refusing to look at this thread again, you really really really dont want to be wrong, do you?

 

Im sure the insurgency has killed plenty of people, however the root cause of these deaths lies on the US in general because the insurgency would not exist unless we invaded Iraq, so whether directly or indirectly, we have killed 600,000 people. It's time to own up to it. Also for all of Saddam Hussein's evilness, our country supported him, and helped to prop up his regime before the early 90's, we were hoping he would wipe out Iran, that didnt happen...he invated an easier target, Kuwait instead, this is when our paths diverged.

 

You say the primary job of American soldiers right now in Iraq is to stabalize the country...if you ask me, they are doing a pretty crappy job if that's the case, because Iraq is much more unstable now than it was before the invasion, not to mention the quality of life of all Iraqi citizens has gone down (no healthcare, no jobs, no electricity, etc.) these are easy problems that we should have been able to solve by now, if stabalization was the goal, it would be done by now.

 

You say that you cannot think of anything more patriotic than joining the military, my question for you is "why?" How does killing for ones country make one more patriotic and more honorable, I say that true patriots are people that can accomplish the same task as the military but with no deaths to anybody, and with beneficial circumstances to both sides in a potential conflict (diplomats, etc.)

 

Keep deluding yourself if you want to, but joining the military means you joined the military, it doesnt inherently make you anything different than that.

 

PS:

Am I completely off the mark here? Has my logic led me astray? I dont think that what I'm saying sounds all that unreasonable.

[djet]

Okay I deleted the part in my topic about coming back because I hate missing a good debate.... (if anyone thinks it is otherwise than I'm sorry, but I do not hold grudges or anything towards any people that argue with or against me.)

 

I do think we went to quickly into Iraq, but I think the idea behind it was sound. Saddam showed all evidence that he would probably still have WMD's and was known for using them.

 

 

Over 400,000 Kurds were killed before we invaded. I'm pretty sure those people aren't as oppressed as they were before we came in.

 

The military's purpose is not to "kill bad guys." And when you join the military it is to server your country and that is what I intend to do. Serve our country.

 

We're not allowed in this country to criticize soldiers for anything, without the risk of being labeled traitors, idiots, dissenters, etc.

 

Ever heard of Walter Reed Hospital? Doesn't seem to show that we hold soldiers in a holy image, although I think we can place them on this "untouchable" pedestal that is in unmerited.

 

One other thing. Do you favor immediate troop withdrawal? Just curious.

[apowerr]

I'm all right for you to be against the war but I do not think you have any right to condemn the soldiers as invaders and before you do that,

An invasion is a military action of soldiers entering a foreign land. An invader is an individual, nation, or other entity participating in such an action.

Our soldiers were invaders.

many joined up BECAUSE they wanted to kill people in the misguided vision that they were helping their country.

I do NOT appreciate it when someone downgrades the American soldier to a bloodthirsty mercenary:

You misunderstand the point he is making. It is a terrible feeling to have a problem and to not be doing anything to solve it. Americans were upset and angry after 9/11 and wanted to do everything they could to make sure it wouldn't happen again. We would have jumped on anyone of any country if there was even the minutest intelligence to back it up, simply because that feels better than being idle. The soldiers of course didn't join because they were bloodthirsty, the joined because they wanted to help their country.

Last time I checked the American soldiers have not killed 600,000 Iraqi civilians. Insurgents have. What is the primary American job right now? Keeping the country stable. How do they do this? By NOT allowing these civilians to be slaughtered. How about you ask them if they think we are killing them

If the United States had not invaded Iraq, far less than 600,000 would be dead to do political turmoil and infighting. And I highly doubt that Saddam would be responsible for anywhere near 600,000 deaths between 2003 and 2008.

You claim that you know the real patriotism. I cannot think of anything more patriotic than serving in our country's military. I plan on doing it.

Deciding to join the military is a patriotic action, yes. Russians joining the red army and fighting in the Great Patriotic War, that is pretty patriotic and beneficial to the country. But while German men may have joined the Wehrmacht out of patriotism, fighting to invade Poland really did not have any benefit to the country and was unnecessary.

 

And the invasion of Iraq was pretty imperialistic, djet. Do you see that?

 

One other thing. Do you favor immediate troop withdrawal? Just curious.

You weren't asking me in particular but I'll go ahead and state how I feel. Say December is just a really, really bad time to pull out. Insurgency is a lot higher than normal and things are in a messy state. Sure, go ahead and get things more stable and calm. But still pull out as soon as possible, otherwise we may be there '100 [more] years'.

[djet]

I do believe we should pullout gradually when it will not affect the country, but I feel that the pullouts favored by many (sorry to generalize here) Democrats seems to say we should get our butts out of there disregarding the effects it will cause on Iraq. If we pull out too quickly it will appear to the world as a defeat and IMO increase terrorist activities. Also I think it would severely destabilize Iraq to the point of civil war (Sunnis vs. Shiites)

 

EDIT:

 

Yes I do think there are a LOT of things with the motives behind the invasion but I think the WMD factor/terrorism factor was just. Oil.... that's another deal, but I don't feel like oil has really improved from our invasion even if it was a purpose of the invasion.

[killbot1000]

One other thing. Do you favor immediate troop withdrawal? Just curious.

 

No I don't, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

[djet]

Of course not, what else is Vista for?

[capt_cope]

Also, I never asked these soldiers to go to Iraq and die for me over some non-existent reason. It is akin to Jesus dying for my "sins". It is ridiculous and not worth arguing, these people decided to join the military, they got sent to Iraq, many joined up BECAUSE they wanted to kill people in the misguided vision that they were helping their country.

 

 

 

 

How many soldiers do you know? How many would consider you a friend? (I'm hoping very few based on the way you talk about them.) You're over the line on that comment. Every single person I know in the military, or in the process of joining the military, has chosen that path because he or she wanted to serve the people of the United States, or because it was a paying job and a roof over their heads. I don't know a single person in the military who "joined up because they wanted to kill people" What a load of horse{censored}, pardon my french. While you sit on your ass here in the states, the least you can do is refrain from slandering the men and women who, like it or not, are doing their job. The job that YOU sent them on. You see last I checked this was a democratic nation, and it wasn't George Bush jr. alone who started the war in Iraq, that responsibility filters down to each and every one of us. After all WE, the American public, elected him, and we are at least partially responsible for his actions as president.

The next time you think about berating our soldiers, remember: They are not monsters, looking for blood, they are people. Just like you, and just like me. They are doing their jobs BECAUSE of you and me. If you don't like them because of what they do, move to Canada and absolve yourself of the responsibility.

[djet]

/agree

[killbot1000]

Also, I never asked these soldiers to go to Iraq and die for me over some non-existent reason. It is akin to Jesus dying for my "sins". It is ridiculous and not worth arguing, these people decided to join the military, they got sent to Iraq, many joined up BECAUSE they wanted to kill people in the misguided vision that they were helping their country.

How many soldiers do you know? How many would consider you a friend? (I'm hoping very few based on the way you talk about them.) You're over the line on that comment. Every single person I know in the military, or in the process of joining the military, has chosen that path because he or she wanted to serve the people of the United States, or because it was a paying job and a roof over their heads. I don't know a single person in the military who "joined up because they wanted to kill people" What a load of horse{censored}, pardon my french. While you sit on your ass here in the states, the least you can do is refrain from slandering the men and women who, like it or not, are doing their job. The job that YOU sent them on. You see last I checked this was a democratic nation, and it wasn't George Bush jr. alone who started the war in Iraq, that responsibility filters down to each and every one of us. After all WE, the American public, elected him, and we are at least partially responsible for his actions as president.

The next time you think about berating our soldiers, remember: They are not monsters, looking for blood, they are people. Just like you, and just like me. They are doing their jobs BECAUSE of you and me. If you don't like them because of what they do, move to Canada and absolve yourself of the responsibility.

 

I went to about 4 parties on an army base by where I live. I also have a close friend in the Navy, and I have another kinda close friend in the Marines. Many of my friends who are women go out with army guys, which is how I met many of these people.

 

Whenever I have been at a gathering with a lot of army guys, they will get together, drink beers (get belligerently drunk), and they will start inevitably bragging about how many "kills" they got while in Iraq, like it is a fu-cking video game or something. It made me sick to even hear. There were guys of course in the room (and my close friends) who did not feel this way, who did not want to kill, who did not feel that it was good to be bragging about how many people one killed as well.

 

My point is that soldiers are regular human beings, there are soldiers who are amazingly good, honorable, etc. people. There are also soldiers who joined up to kill people. Soldiers are no different than any other kind of human being. Being a soldier means just that, being a soldier. Whether one is serving their country or being honorable, or whatever remains to be seen after that. I am not bashing on soldiers, I find that they are absolutely necessary and vital to the defense of our nation, but they are subject to being misguided and wrong just like every other human being on this planet, this is made even worse by the training they receive, which seeks to both dehumanize the enemy and to dehumanize the soldiers themselves.

 

I am not slandering anybody, I have not mentioned any specific names or have said anything that is untrue. Take the blinders off and you will see what I have seen, you will see a group of people, some of the people in this group will be some of the coolest people you'll ever meet, some of them will be pieces of $hit.

 

To the mobster comment, I was not comparing soldiers to mobsters, I was saying that I could judge mobsters just like I can judge soldiers.

 

I didn't send them to do any job, George W. Bush and the congress send them to do that job, also the people Voted for Al Gore, he won the election but Bush got the presidency in a steal by a conservative supreme court, so no, WE didn't initiate anything. I was opposed to the Iraq war from the start, it made absolutely no sense from the get-go, people called me an idiot at the time, but honestly, I am glad I stuck with my view on that particular subject.

 

Plus as a last point, I am not simply sitting on my ass, I am a political activist, I frequently protest, I try to teach and inform people about what's really going on, I talk about these issues that nobody wants to talk about, even if it threatens my status or employment, or whatever (I am not a crazy weirdo when I talk about this stuff in real life BTW). I do not call this simply sitting on my ass. I am only doing what the media, the government, and common people refuse to do, I am trying to keep the public informed. This is NOT sitting on my ass.

 

This is not a Democracy, this is a Republic/Empire.

 

Your argument that I should move to Canada if I don't LIKE what they do is a logical fallacy, it doesn't make any sense.

 

And for that matter, I don't dislike soldiers, I have never said that, not once...But I don't inherently LIKE soldiers, why should I? As you and I have said, they are people just like you and I, and as such, I don't like/dislike people until I get to know them, soldiers are no different.

 

What you are saying to me goes back to my original point that were not allowed to have any opinion of soldiers other than "all of them are honorable, good people who served their country". This is simply not true, and it is akin to brainwashing.

 

Some soldiers have been honorable and have served this country in the highest of integrity, some have not, plain and simple.

 

Also, because there is such a need for soldiers right now, the "Not" crowd is growing, many unsavory characters that the military used to leave out (such as white supremacists) are now welcomed with open arms. Also our increased use of mercenary work, only compounds this problem.

 

I am trying to look at this from a realistic, logical standpoint, not an idealistic one, that's why its hard for me to make this point sound good, because it doesn't sound good, it just is. And if one has been believing all their life that all soldiers are good, honorable people, they simply aren't going to believe it.

[Maxintosh]

I'll be damned before I condemn the actions of the men and women who are fighting and dying on my behalf.

Yeah, too bad for your theory they are not there on your behalf. They are there on bushs behalf.

 

No countries are openly harboring terrorists ever since we had a cowboy in the White House.

That is meaningless. There is a direct link from bush to osama bin laden, and not in a good way. Their families regularly do business together, and both families worked for the company that was "supposed" to offer security for the Twin Towers. IMO anyone who supports bush/bin laden is not an American.

 

Am I completely off the mark here? Has my logic led me astray? I dont think that what I'm saying sounds all that unreasonable.

Not at all. You made many very good points! Very well said

[JonTheSavage]

What is an Insurgent? Someone defending his household, his family, and way of life?

When the same people come knocking on your door with M-16s, you will know who the real Insurgent is.

[djet]

Knocking on your door to prevent you from getting blown up.

[Maxintosh]

What is an Insurgent?

The opposite of an OUTsurgent.

[JonTheSavage]

Knocking on your door to prevent you from getting blown up.

 

By what?

 

EDIT ADDITION:

No myth. Its gonna happen folks. Google PDD 51.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQsMsurvEi8

[djet]

The insurgents.... last time I checked US soldiers don't use suicide bombs....

[JonTheSavage]

The insurgents.... last time I checked US soldiers don't use suicide bombs....

 

Oh?

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=78...h&plindex=0

[djet]

Long vid.... can ya give me the time showing the U.S. soldiers with the suicide bombs?

[JonTheSavage]

Long vid.... can ya give me the time showing the U.S. soldiers with the suicide bombs?

 

download it if you got the bandwidth. Informative, and worth watching.

It explains how that works.