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JonTheSavage

"The US does not torture"

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The government loves you!

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

 

"b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;"

"i. (S) Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;"

"h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and {censored} to simulate electric torture;"

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Jon, I don't condone torture, but before blowing the Alarm Bell, have you thought about what if you're whole family was killed by a bomb set by a terrorist. Would you want that person to have a simple conversation with someone that could not use any bit of tools to get the murderer to talk? Try to put it into perspective a little.

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Jon, I don't condone torture, but before blowing the Alarm Bell, have you thought about what if you're whole family was killed by a bomb set by a terrorist. Would you want that person to have a simple conversation with someone that could not use any bit of tools to get the murderer to talk? Try to put it into perspective a little.

 

Look at it this way.

A terrorist attack happens and even though you know your innocent your arrested. You are then taken some where and tortured even though your innocent you can not take the pain any more and admit to the crimes you didn't commit.

Not only is your life over for no reason, the real terrorist is free to terrorize again.

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True, but what if say one of the terrorists from 9/11 somehow got caught (like an actual flyer). You think he would really talk if you sat down and talked with him over a cup o' tea?

 

Once again, I do not condone torture, I just don't like it when people see "evil" and jump on the "that's bad" bandwagon before thinking, "Hmm, maybe there's another part to this that I don't see."

 

Now I do this all the time, I'm just trying to point it out.

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True, but what if say one of the terrorists from 9/11 somehow got caught (like an actual flyer). You think he would really talk if you sat down and talked with him over a cup o' tea?

 

Once again, I do not condone torture, I just don't like it when people see "evil" and jump on the "that's bad" bandwagon before thinking, "Hmm, maybe there's another part to this that I don't see."

 

What happens with torture is that you get them to say what you want them to say, which might not be the truth.

 

To put it in a "hmm, there's another part..." way. What if your family was wacked by a terrorist, but the police believes you did it. Then they torture you so that you "confess". After that they take down your family for false allegations, and maybe are able to connect them with other crimes. Now they torture them and they also say "ok, ok, we did it" because they don't know any other way.

 

Now tell me, what happened to the real criminals, and what about your family...

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What happens with torture is that you get them to say what you want them to say, which might not be the truth.
Absolutely and this has been proven many times.

 

But there is a another major concern with torture. And that is it breeds more hate towards the torturers and ultimately puts the torturer in more danger. For example if one of the guys in Guantanamo Bay got tortured. Then they later released him because it was found he was innocent. Isn't it likely he would return home and spread the new deeper hate he now hs for the US creating new 20 fighters against the US?

 

That's something to think about.

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Guys...it doesn't matter if there are good reasons to torture them, or something to be gained. Of course you might get information out of them, sure. But the whole argument against america torturing its prisoners(I can hardly believe I'm saying that) is that we have laws etc that ban any kind of torturing, no ifs ands or buts.

 

 

Laws are laws, and you don't disobey them just because you can. Plus, if the can break that law, where is it going to stop? They can use the "its more important" and "the ends justifies the means" argument for anything. Especially when it's already been done and gotten away with.

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That's something to think about.

 

Thats also a very valid point. I visited Pakistan two years ago, and most people just love when foreigners visit. But when it is talk about guantanamo and other things the americans does obviously i felt that the tensions raised. I also read it in various publications local and international english like newsweek and time magazine. And I am sure that the prison camp in guantanamo and how they treat prisoners is the number one fertilizer for justifying terrorism against USA.

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To put it in a "hmm, there's another part..." way. What if your family was wacked by a terrorist, but the police believes you did it. Then they torture you so that you "confess". After that they take down your family for false allegations, and maybe are able to connect them with other crimes. Now they torture them and they also say "ok, ok, we did it" because they don't know any other way.

 

And what if they caught the actual terrorist?

 

I do not think it is ANY way right for the U.S. to torture, it's against the law and it is inhumane. I'm just trying to make sure people (including myself) understand the other side of the debate.

 

(Wouldn't be a good discussion if everyone agreed.)

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Guest cavallo

may anyone one may me that question?

since a lot of time they tried to control you through pc industry do you remember, why nobody controlled mohammed hatta, first on any terrorist headlining list?

dubai refused him entry.

in a country where security services killed president, traded weapons illegaly with iran through israel to finace terrorism in central america and finaced south american regimes is possible to accept that they have done or let it done by financed people?

Bin laden was under cia protection in mid luly 2001 in Dubai, do you know that or no?

any torture is doubely illegal.

they let you believe that mullah omar escaped in afganistan desert on little motorcycle.

No it's a joke

They destroyed world economy with that.

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Jon, I don't condone torture, but before blowing the Alarm Bell, have you thought about what if you're whole family was killed by a bomb set by a terrorist. Would you want that person to have a simple conversation with someone that could not use any bit of tools to get the murderer to talk? Try to put it into perspective a little.

 

Please don't repeat government propaganda to me. I can see right through it.

 

If "al-CIA-da" attacks you because they "want to take away your freedom", then bush takes away your freedom, then that makes him "al-CIA-da", and the "terrorists" have already won. So whos the terrorist? It certainly isn't some guy with a towel on his head defending his family.

 

It doesn't matter what who believes about torture. It is ILLEGAL. period. And those who committed the crime should be held accountable, and put on trial for their war crimes. Just a reminder that the Nazis used to torture. I am sure they said that they could obtain information from those "communist jews" through those gas chambers. Although, I don't think that even Hitler did things as evil as what Bush is doing. Go google Hitler's speeches.

 

See, if you can get a society to accept something as evil as toture in this manner, you can get them to accept anything.

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This is one of the most bone-headed posts I've ever read. I'm sorry but it is.

 

If "al-CIA-da" attacks you because they "want to take away your freedom", then bush takes away your freedom, then that makes him "al-CIA-da", and the "terrorists" have already won. So whos the terrorist? It certainly isn't some guy with a towel on his head defending his family.

 

Yeah, I guess those terrorists were defending their families when they flew planes into our buildings.....

or wait, it's a conspiracy theory! My bad.....

 

Although, I don't think that even Hitler did things as evil as what Bush is doing.

 

Oh really...... tell that to one of the jews that went through the holocaust.... 10 MILLION people died Jon. Now Bush has done a lot of boneheaded things (all presidents do.... Bush probably more than all of them) but he has not committed genocide, and PLEASE don't post some thing about how Bush did something that allowed another leader somewhere to kill people. Bush did NOT condemn massive numbers of people to their deaths. It's a shame to the Jewish community to compare the two.

 

Now I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN TORTURE! I'm just trying to show why it was used.

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This is such a divisive topic but one worth discussing. History has a tendency to repeat itself. Perhaps the words of Edward R. Murrow would be most appropriate:

We hardly need to be reminded that we are living in an age of confusion — a lot of us have traded in our beliefs for bitterness and cynicism or for a heavy package of despair, or even a quivering portion of hysteria. Opinions can be picked up cheap in the market place while such commodities as courage and fortitude and faith are in alarmingly short supply...

 

We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men — not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular...

 

This is no time for men who oppose Senator McCarthy's methods to keep silent, or for those who approve. We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result. There is no way for a citizen of a republic to abdicate his responsibilities. As a nation we have come into our full inheritance at a tender age. We proclaim ourselves, as indeed we are, the defenders of freedom, wherever it continues to exist in the world, but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. Every act that denies or limits the freedom of the individual in this country costs us the ... confidence of men and women who aspire to that freedom and independence of which we speak and for which our ancestors fought...

 

The actions of the junior Senator from Wisconsin have caused alarm and dismay amongst our allies abroad, and given considerable comfort to our enemies. And whose fault is that? Not really his. He didn't create this situation of fear; he merely exploited it — and rather successfully. Cassius was right. "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves."

 

Good night, and good luck.

He was a far more articulate and intelligent a man than I. I would just add that there is something far greater than ourselves in peril here. For those who think the price we've paid in our global war on terror is warranted and required, I would argue you haven't kept yourself adequately informed. You must certainly entertain a very limited view on what has transpired. The very foundation on which freedom and democracy relies has been rocked to its core. The rule of law has been subverted. Constitutional principles have been misappropriated, contorted, and abused. Transparency of governance has been severely curtailed. You might argue that these were done for all the right reasons but the precedence is beyond frightening. We have abandoned many of those principles for which so many have fought and died. There was a time when these principles were revolutionary and unproven but the people had faith they would lead to a better way of life. Are we turning our backs on that faith?

 

Fearful men without the stomach for any true conviction have usurped the national interest. We might understand the motives and pressures that lead to such actions but that does not excuse them. The ends do not always justify the means.

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And what if they caught the actual terrorist?

 

Fact shows that they don´t. If they did it is more luck than anything else. I believe that you will get just as much response by professional police work, and the chances are that you will get "him/her on your side" instead. There are simply too few cases where torture really show to give any results.

 

And also common law has the the principle "ten guilty free than one innocent convicted". Of course, if your wish is to live in a police state you would rather believe "ten innocent convicted than one guilty free". You just dont apply law and methods to please your thirst for revenge and hatred. You do it to protect the society, meaning the entire society necessarily also those you don´t feel you identify with or have different opinions.

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This is one of the most bone-headed posts I've ever read. I'm sorry but it is.

 

Yeah, I guess those terrorists were defending their families when they flew planes into our buildings.....

or wait, it's a conspiracy theory! My bad.....

 

Oh really...... tell that to one of the jews that went through the holocaust.... 10 MILLION people died Jon. Now Bush has done a lot of boneheaded things (all presidents do.... Bush probably more than all of them) but he has not committed genocide, and PLEASE don't post some thing about how Bush did something that allowed another leader somewhere to kill people. Bush did NOT condemn massive numbers of people to their deaths. It's a shame to the Jewish community to compare the two.

 

Now I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN TORTURE! I'm just trying to show why it was used.

 

Whitness the body count little one, It is over 1.4 million so far, and climbing, just keep waiting.

 

So you believe the gobber-mint's official fairy tale? I suppose you believe in UFOs, and bigfoot too don't you? Don't get me started on your childish conspiracy theories about men with towels on their heads that are under your bed, and in your closet at night. I suppose you believe that the Gulf of Tonkin wasn't staged either do you? :hysterical:

 

The CIA has been running those people since Reagan. Bin Laden was, and still is, a CIA tactition. Grow up. You weren't even a live back then, so pick another topic before you decide to open your mouth, and spew {censored} from your entertainment tube, when you know nothing about what you speak of.

 

Stop parroting your boob tube.

 

Was this you?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2206749/Bo...st-attacks.html

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I am not a George Bush fan....

 

But the fact that you consider his atrocities as evil is Hitler's shows how much of a fool you truly are.

 

You're telling me to grow up? How about you use your head for once and stop believing that everytime something goes "bad" for you, it's because some government politician is intentionally trying to cause it. Have you ever thought that maybe it's your fault and not other people's for once? You blame every bad thing that happens in the US on the government.

 

I also find it funny that you're defending the terrorists here, but keep on disrespecting them by saying they are "men with towels on their heads."

 

Now we're both in a heated discussion throwing ad hominem around and neither of us have any hope to convince the other that what we think is right, nothing left to just get our view across..... shall we continue?

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I am not a George Bush fan....

 

But the fact that you consider his atrocities as evil is Hitler's shows how much of a fool you truly are.

 

You're telling me to grow up? How about you use your head for once and stop believing that everytime something goes "bad" for you, it's because some government politician is intentionally trying to cause it. Have you ever thought that maybe it's your fault and not other people's for once? You blame every bad thing that happens in the US on the government.

 

I also find it funny that you're defending the terrorists here, but keep on disrespecting them by saying they are "men with towels on their heads."

 

Now we're both in a heated discussion throwing ad hominem around and neither of us have any hope to convince the other that what we think is right, nothing left to just get our view across..... shall we continue?

 

If another country invaded my town today, I would fight back, and yes, I would kill every one of them. Thats what happens when another country invades your home. People are not going to bend over and play dead for you. They are going to fight back, and more power to them. Don't sit there and tell me that if some demon blew your mother's head off, shot your brother in front of you, then laughed about it, that you wouldn't go after them. You would be the lowest form of human being if you didn't. Iraq was INVADED. YES, they are going to fight back.

 

http://www.toxicjunction.com/get.asp?i=V4132

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASz-iKOOnyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl2VBaWt50A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8AzUni4Mhk

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...videoid=7114811

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...;videoid=292091

 

 

Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Clinton, Mau, Lee Chang, Lincoln, King George III, King George II, King George I, Saul, Che Guevero, Fidel Castro, the list goes on, and on, and on. Warlords, thugs, and those that profit from war. Put yourself in the list, and join their ranks since you support them.

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We should add the Colonel from KFC, him being a "Colonel" and all! :hysterical: x150

 

 

SticMAN

:hysterical: +1

 

................Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Clinton, Mau, Lee Chang, Lincoln, King George III, King George II, King George I, Saul, Che Guevero, Fidel Castro, the list goes on, and on, and on. Warlords, thugs, and those that profit from war. Put yourself in the list, and join their ranks since you support them.

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Well, what was good enough for your Grandmother, is good enough for me!

 

SticMAN

 

I find it quite sick that liberals are backing mass murderers these days.

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djet and Jon lets just keep things civil here please. This discussion isn't actually going so badly but less getting angry with one another because of their views and more arguing against it.

 

Also djet I actually appreciate that you've actually brought up the try and see the other end of the discussion here because to have a proper discussion someone needs to.

 

Now I'm not sure if Hitler and Bush are in the same boat but one thing about Hitler was he was open about it all. Bush isn't. He cleverly discusses the murders he commits as an attempt to liberate and bring freedom and at the same time not lifting a finger to help places which need it (Darfur, Zimbabwe,...) because they have no oil or any strategic interests. Now I'm not clearly saying Bush is the worst of the two but he's laid down the seeds of a way of thinking in the US government that is extremely worrying for future generations and is likely to cause further suffering around the world in at home.

 

SticMAN, if I see one more bs post from you your account will be temporarily suspended. This forum isn't the place for childish comments so grow up.

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At least you're not deleting them anymore!

 

@Mebster:

I love it when people leave things public! It's all that "transparency" I like! My question would then be, who decides what is BS or not? If I find your comments on this not only bordering on ridiculous but completely ill informed, just how do you know that nothing is being done to help Zimbabwe?! I have first hand knowledge on aid being diverted from companies in the USA to help the opposition in Zim! Not only are you i'll informed, but misguided in your responses! Which is what my point is, If anyone cannot substantiate anything with facts, one should be set right!

 

Also:

".... liberals are backing mass murderers these days"

I don't mind being called a mass murderer, but a Liberal! Please i find this a insult!

 

If you bothered to check my D.O.B and you bothered check my personal background before the attacks began, you will realize that these comments are far from childish! They merely remind everybody of how ridiculous and unfounded most of JohnnydaSewage's topics are!

 

Or

 

Is it a "I am GOD and I will do what I feel fit?"

 

SticMAN

"I have seen things, and done things, that will make your heart jump!"

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We are torturing people, we are playing with words and definitions to make it seem like were not (the US). We are keeping prisoners off American soil so that they don't have the same rights any other prisoner would have. 9/11 was an inside job. The war on Terror is fake. Its a war on democracy and civil liberties.

 

President George W. Bush is allowed to do anything he wants, all under the pretext of 9/11.

 

Wake up people, this isn't our country anymore (if you hail from the US), it has been stolen from us.

 

Our government should just come out and say "were evil", I bet people still wouldn't do anything about it as long as they can get their "US weekly" and celebrity gossip.

 

Most Americans are ignorant, uninformed masses, who fear any kind of change. We did this to ourselves, are we really surprised this is the way its turned out?

 

Quit the lies, quit the denial, quit the fake sense of "patriotism". Wake up, realize your government, your company, and your leaders are corrupt. Do something about it! Boycott, protest, march, quit paying taxes. Collective action will bring all these people to their knees.

 

Banks get multi-billion dollar bailouts in less than a day, but we have to fight for years to get anything meaningful for ourselves as American citizens who don't really ask for much to be quite honest. Our system is corrupt, its time for a change.

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