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End of Hackintosh nearing (slowly)?

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#1
frankiee

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Look here: https://www.bloomber...el-independence

 

Sure, for a while Apple has to support older macs without that chips as well. But within a few years, when macOS only supports - and needs! - those custom chip its over I guess.

 

What do you think? Would it be possible to emulate this functionality with a kext, just like FakeSMC (kinda) emulates the SMC chip? Guess even if possible, a LOT harder to do so.



#2
ClaudesTech

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I personally don't believe in a soon to be presented Apple computer powered only with an ARM chip, that article it's about a chip for specific features similar to the one present on the 2016 touchbar models, probably it will as described, a chip for battery saver powernap and maybe something else, today many users are buying Macs, even cause they can run Windows too, and Apple will not want to lose such users...

 

But probably, not in the near future Apple could build x86 chips too, who knows!

 

BTW long life to the hackintosh :)



#3
frankiee

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I personally don't believe in a soon to be presented Apple computer powered only with an ARM chip, that article it's about a chip for specific features similar to the one present on the 2016 touchbar models, probably it will as described, a chip for battery saver powernap and maybe something else, today many users are buying Macs, even cause they can run Windows too, and Apple will not want to lose such users...

 

Well, they could still build machines that can run bootcamp, in that case windows simply ignore the extra chips.

 

But things might get hairy if macOS demands that such an extra chip is installed. Building hackintoshes will be virtually impossible then, unless someone goes the extreme way of emulating such hardware. Good thing is that this transition - IF it happens - will take another several years for sure.

 

And I am also not so sure if we don't see a Mac with ARM only in the near future. Not highend machine of course (well, does Apple still build anything highend? lol). I mean, I bet they have an ARM version of macOS running for quite a while, just like they did with the transitition to Intel.

 

 

BTW long life to the hackintosh :)

 

Word!



#4
joe75

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There will be 2017 macs coming soon and they will need to be supported for at least 5 to 7 years, so don't panic quite yet plz..



#5
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Don't worry, no panicking here ;) But I found that news interesting anyways. We will see what the exact implications are.



#6
joe75

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If we use 10.12 as any indication of their future, I think we have more to worry about with the OS itself being usable instead of what they use for hardware.



#7
frankiee

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If we use 10.12 as any indication of their future, I think we have more to worry about with the OS itself being usable instead of what they use for hardware.

 

Ahhh yeah. Exactly! This one gives me worries as well. Especially Apple QA is not what it used to be, and since  apparently there isn't even a dedicated macOS team anymore, I also think this might not get much better. Actually I  did something I never did before now, and downgraded my OS back to El Capitan. Wasn't much fun, but works much better for me.

 

Not only that, also the neglection of the "pro" users in general is not good, both regarding hardware (trashcan, anyone?) and software (useless new "features" like even more emoticons, dumbing down things all overall the place). I mean actually the lack of a proper workstation aka "Mac Pro" (at least what _I_ regard as a proper workstation ...) is the one main point that drove me to the hackintosh scene. I admit I am not so much the "hacker / tinkerer" type of person, I actually have to work with my machine and earn some money to pay my rent ... But hey, at least I learned a lot in the process (but I am still kinda stupid I guess) ;)



#8
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Ahhh yeah. Exactly! This one gives me worries as well. Especially Apple QA is not what it used to be, and since  apparently there isn't even a dedicated macOS team anymore, I also think this might not get much better. Actually I  did something I never did before now, and downgraded my OS back to El Capitan. Wasn't much fun, but works much better for me.

 

Just curious, what do you not like about Sierra? I've found it to basically be a slicker El Capitan. What features did they remove? I still hate the post-Mavericks UI, but not a lot I can do about that.

 

These extra processors don't sound like a big deal IMO. Worst case scenario, sleep won't work. Oh no! Whatever will I do when my desktop computer that's designed to always be connected to a power source can't go to sleep!



#9
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BTW long life to the hackintosh :)

:yes:



#10
philip_petev

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I think lots of you remember the WWDC 2005 keynote and the "Performance per wat" explanation by Steve Jobs about switching the PowerPC chips with Intel. I wonder where the current ARM chips stand in such sheet, not to mention the Intel value in that sheet has also changed over the years (it's a matter of 12 years after all).

At the current point, there's no ARM chip that can compete with any Intel Core i3 chip, mobile or desktop (which Apple don't even use), except maybe in term of power consumption (with corresponding productivity of course) , what about i5 or i7...

Poor Steve Jobs is probably already started turning in his grave...

 

Edit: IMO, it's more likely to see Intel chips with AMD graphics core inside them than ARM chips in all Apple computers in the near future.



#11
frankiee

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Just curious, what do you not like about Sierra?

 

First of all, there seems to be absolutely nothing new that is actually useful (for me at least - maybe the new tabs feature, but I dont miss that actually). And at least for me it does not seem as stable / reliable as 10.11.6. Well, based on my experience, at least since Yosemite no macOS is really stable until a 1x.x.5+ revision, so maybe I also was too early to migrate. Since I run a production machine, I do not update to any x.x.0 Version anymore, waaaay to risky.

 

For example, there are even more graphical glitches with NVIDIA web driver, but also 3rd party Issues, like my parallels macOS VMs not functioning properly anymore. Yeah, you could blame parallels for that (but not sure whose fault it is), but I don't feel like buying a new version each and every year. And with 10.11 it "just works". And those graphical glitches I mentioned are there even when using the native NVIDIA driver on a real mac! For example, do some fast user switching on a machine with NVIDIA graphics and you will see what I mean. So also on my "real" MacBook Pro, fast user switching basically means I have to restart my machine after that.

 

 

What features did they remove?

 

One point is the console app. At least _my_ most common two usecases were 1) inspecting boot log, and 2) opening console.app after some glitch / issue, to see what just happened. Both not possible anymore, at least not without using some rather crude workarounds (without using the console at all). Console has become also useless, because it basically spams me to death with irrelevant stuff, and I had to make some extensive filtering to tame the output a bit. I mean it could have been much better. Feels a bit like what they did with the DU app in El Capitan, i.e. looks more pretty but is also much more useless. And yeah, the old DU still works in El Cap with a patch, but apparently not anymore in Sierra.

 

I had also problems with some 3rd Party PDF app, and another thing is that - at least with Web Driver - some Apple apps totally ceased to work, namely Instruments, iBooks and iBooks Author. And since I have an actual job that involves producing such iBooks, that was the final dealbreaker for me.

 

But ultimately, my problem with macOS and Apple in general is not really so much a specific version, i.e. Sierra. It's more like they neglect macs (especially for "pro" folks who need to earn money with the platform) in general in favor to all that iOS stuff, and that Apple QA has gotten way worse in recent years. Anyone remember Snow Leopard? Well, that was quality software in my eyes. Absolutely rock solid and reliable! Not any more ... If only the alternatives I have would not be even more worse (I hate Windows) or downright unusable (all Linux).


At the current point, there's no ARM chip that can compete with any Intel Core i3 chip, mobile or desktop (which Apple don't even use), except maybe in term of power consumption (with corresponding productivity of course) , what about i5 or i7...

Poor Steve Jobs is probably already started turning in his grave...

 

Yeah, at the current point! But this gap is narrowing more and more, so I am not so sure that we don't see this special configuration in other Macs as well, or even ARM only Macs (but this may take longer of course). Guess we will have to wait and see.



#12
cuthead

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First of all, there seems to be absolutely nothing new that is actually useful (for me at least - maybe the new tabs feature, but I dont miss that actually). And at least for me it does not seem as stable / reliable as 10.11.6. Well, based on my experience, at least since Yosemite no macOS is really stable until a 1x.x.5+ revision, so maybe I also was too early to migrate. Since I run a production machine, I do not update to any x.x.0 Version anymore, waaaay to risky.
 
For example, there are even more graphical glitches with NVIDIA web driver, but also 3rd party Issues, like my parallels macOS VMs not functioning properly anymore. Yeah, you could blame parallels for that (but not sure whose fault it is), but I don't feel like buying a new version each and every year. And with 10.11 it "just works". And those graphical glitches I mentioned are there even when using the native NVIDIA driver on a real mac! For example, do some fast user switching on a machine with NVIDIA graphics and you will see what I mean. So also on my "real" MacBook Pro, fast user switching basically means I have to restart my machine after that.
 
 
 
One point is the console app. At least _my_ most common two usecases were 1) inspecting boot log, and 2) opening console.app after some glitch / issue, to see what just happened. Both not possible anymore, at least not without using some rather crude workarounds (without using the console at all). Console has become also useless, because it basically spams me to death with irrelevant stuff, and I had to make some extensive filtering to tame the output a bit. I mean it could have been much better. Feels a bit like what they did with the DU app in El Capitan, i.e. looks more pretty but is also much more useless. And yeah, the old DU still works in El Cap with a patch, but apparently not anymore in Sierra.
 
I had also problems with some 3rd Party PDF app, and another thing is that - at least with Web Driver - some Apple apps totally ceased to work, namely Instruments, iBooks and iBooks Author. And since I have an actual job that involves producing such iBooks, that was the final dealbreaker for me.
 
But ultimately, my problem with macOS and Apple in general is not really so much a specific version, i.e. Sierra. It's more like they neglect macs (especially for "pro" folks who need to earn money with the platform) in general in favor to all that iOS stuff, and that Apple QA has gotten way worse in recent years. Anyone remember Snow Leopard? Well, that was quality software in my eyes. Absolutely rock solid and reliable! Not any more ... If only the alternatives I have would not be even more worse (I hate Windows) or downright unusable (all Linux).

 
Yeah, at the current point! But this gap is narrowing more and more, so I am not so sure that we don't see this special configuration in other Macs as well, or even ARM only Macs (but this may take longer of course). Guess we will have to wait and see.

how about use both

dmesg and console,

html and pdf and ibook,

amd and nvidia,

arm and x86,

debian and mavericks.



#13
frankiee

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how about use both

dmesg and console,

html and pdf and ibook,

amd and nvidia,

arm and x86,

debian and mavericks.

 

Yeah and why not use quintuple boot? One system for each task? Or needing to use 5 computers instead of one? Do some graphic stuff in Illustrator for example, like creating a svg Icon and reboot into Linux for testing it on my local web server? Reboot 5 minutes later to adjust that graphic? Reboot 2 minutes later to adjust some CSS? Rinse and repeat?

 

Maybe I dont get your reply, but I think you are suggesting that I should go to straight to the asylum :surprised:

 

And, I mean if my clients wants that I produce an iBook, I cannot say: "see, that does not work with my super duper macOS Sierra, so I give you PDF". And no, using multiple GPU brands to maybe work around that issue also does not sound like a proper solution.

 

So, why not use one system that does all I want? And that system actually exists - at least until now - and is called "OS X El Capitan".

 

Besides my graphic jobs, I am doing also a lot of (frontend) web development, and OS X used to be perfect for both of these. (Graphic Design is the main reason - due to lack of software - why all Linux are not usable for me).



#14
naquaada

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I worked up to mid 2016 still with Leopard, so even if they will switch, it is not too much of a problem. If a new version of OS X requires a new special component, we'll see.

 

However, with the Macbook Pro 2016 Apple screwed away a lot of users. I found nearly nobody who had a positive review, and even in the business network XING you can talk completely open about building a hackintosh as an alternative. This wouldn't be possible a while ago. Apple has gotten so much critics for the Mac line, if they will announce to switch away from Intel this would be a desaster. The last persons who bought Intel Macs will be really annoyed, and the ones who know the history of Apple they know that old architectures like 68K or PPC were very fast discontinued. If this will happen again, perhaps Mac users will switch to Windows because they know they will stay at x86 and AMD64, and on Windows you'll get the most programs like for the Mac. In this article was stated the Apple stock got +6.1%, but the customers choice will be more important, so this value says nothing.

 

ARM was never a platform for desktop computers, some may remember the british Acorn Archimedes RISC computers. They were wery fast, but they didn't took off. But Microsoft bought the task bar of the RISC OS. ARM is used for smartphones, tablets, Android minicomputers for TV and experimental things like the Raspberry Pi and such things. ARM is also used in embedded systems. But an ARM desktop system which is matching the speed of an Core i7 with 8 cores and 4 GHz? I can't imagine this.

 

@ frankiee:

 

I have a septaboot system:

 

Windows XP

Windows 7

OS X Sierra

OS X Mavericks

OS X Snow Leopard

Zorin OS 9 (Ubuntu 14 derivate)

Android-x86

 

All one one 1 TB harddisk, and there are still about 300 GB free for data. If I need something else, I boot into it, but my default is Mavericks. I also have no alternative to OS X, I'm no Windows fan and there's no software for Linux. I tested 30 audio players, and no one is comparable with iTunes (version 10.7 ;-).



#15
frankiee

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@ frankiee:

 

I have a septaboot system:

 

Windows XP

Windows 7

OS X Sierra

OS X Mavericks

OS X Snow Leopard

Zorin OS 9 (Ubuntu 14 derivate)

Android-x86

 

All one one 1 TB harddisk, and there are still about 300 GB free for data. If I need something else, I boot into it, but my default is Mavericks. I also have no alternative to OS X, I'm no Windows fan and there's no software for Linux. I tested 30 audio players, and no one is comparable with iTunes (version 10.7 ;-).

 

Septaboot? OMG, you are a brave person :)

 

Actually, I even have over 25 systems in total, but most are mainly here for testing my webpages, and I strongly prefer to use VMs for this if it makes sense (but have also a lot of tablets and smart phones of all varieties, since here it is better to have "the real thing"). So why don't you use just Parallels or VMware? Imho a lot more managable and convenient - if you don't have a good reason to boot natively of course.

 

But for work I prefer to have only *one* system and that is of course OS X. Also have windows dualboot (for occasional gaming only).



#16
naquaada

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It's not only installing multiple operating systems on one drive, I've installed Windows XP and Windows in one partition ;-) That's possible because it's a German version, and XP has real localized names. SO 'Documents and Settings' is 'Dokumente und Einstellungen oder 'Program Files' is 'Programme'. So there are no name conflicts, and it works. It's even possible to share the pagefile.sys. ZorinOS and Android-x86 are also installed in one partition using EXT3 filesystem. The Android installer creates an own directory, so there are also no name conflicts.

 

The tricky part is the bootloader configuration. I'm using Clover, EasyBCD, and GRUB 2. It's possible to implement all operating systems in GRUB 2, but the most important ones could be directly loaded by Clover.

 

I also don't need all operating systems, but if I do, I have them all on one computer. And it's fun ;-)



#17
frankiee

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Yeah, but still VMs may be more convenient, I mean you not only have all systems on your computer, you even can run them all at once  :)  (If you have enough RAM of course). Very convenient for side by side testing.

 

Plus, you have things like snapshots and suspend, makes life a lot easier, esp. if you do something by accident that ruins your installation. Or you install something, play with it, and ditch it by rewinding to a former snapshot, so it leaves absolutely no unwanted leftovers. Plus its more safe since each VM runs in its own sandbox.

 

And I cannot mix Windows Versions, since it is hard to impossible to install multiple IEs on one Windows system, and it can have weird side effects even if you somehow manage to do it. Same problem with Safari. At least for testing its best to have an unmodified vanilla installation, but of course YMMV.



#18
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If you are using an english version of Windows XP you can mix it with a newer one, because the names are the same. Windows XP and before has full localized filenames, modern versions are using english names and a localization over it. In Windows it's called 'MUI'. The first Windows version which uses MUI is Windows XP Professional x64 Edition.

 

OS X also uses english names in the filesystem and a localization over it. So if I enter in the Terminal cd /Programme/Dienstprogramme, I'm getting an error No such file or directory. I have to enter cd /Applications/Utilities, then it works. For beginners in the Terminal this may be annoying. Or the keyboard. In Clover or in single user mode, the US keyboard is selected. Finding the keys is also a bit difficult.

 

But I like fiddling around, that's why I have so many OS'es on the drive. Not long ago, I got two Toshiba Libretto 50ct, one of the smallest laptops ever. It's about the size of a VHS tape. It features a Pentium I with 75 MHz, 16 MB RAM, a 6,1" truecolor display and an integrated Soundblaster Pro, which makes it ideal for DOS gaming. The docking station has VGA, Serial and Parallel. Floppy or bootable CD will be connected using PCMCIA. It also has a hardware-based hibernation mode which works even in DOS. Bad is, it uses 8,4 mm high harddisks. So I used an 8 Gig Compactflash card. It's possible to partition and format it, also installing DOS 6.22 (I have the original disks ;-) works. But it won't boot because the BIOS allows drives up to two or four Gig. After some contacts I got EZ-Drive, it allows to boot from harddrives bigger that size. Now I have MS-DOS working and had to install everything from scratch, mouse driver, soundblaster variables, everything. And also the fun with the great memory configuration including 640K, EMS and XMS. Some games won't work with EMM386 or so, and I integrated some really tricky features to change between memory configurations - luckily I'm very good in DOS script programming. It's also weird: with the simple command echo G=FFFF:0000| DEBUG >NUL you can reboot a  computer running MS-DOS ;-) Somehow, MS-DOS is funnier than modern operating systems.

 

If anyone is interested in building a DOS system, I can provide my system. It's not too big to be uploaded, but the MS-DOS version is German. Using a compactflash card instead of a harddrive is perfect because they're absolutely quiet, not expensive and data exchange with modern systems is very easy.



#19
Gen_

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Apple will not go into ARM chips with macOS unless it's still planning iOS convergence: thy have forked a lot of ARM code when they spun off iOS and rewriting that code for more functionality is inefficient compared to just glossing over those features with simpler application "updates".

Apple also won't go into ARM chips because it would take them a sizeable chunk of their bank to catch up with Intel on performance. Worse still is the fact that all the stuff Intel did recently is definitely still under patent so every single modern method in the chip must be reinvented. (This is why it took AMD so long to catch up with Ryzen; if you take too long to get to the patent office, you have to think of a new way to do exactly the same thing, often a less efficient way just to avoid the patent)



#20
frankiee

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Apple will not go into ARM chips with macOS unless it's still planning iOS convergence:

 

And imho, this is exactly the plan. The writing is on the wall all overall the place.







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