Same-sex marriage and politics. What say you?

[gwprod12]

I find that people either dont read the bible (I seem to know the bible a lot better than most Christians I meet), or they conveniently ignore the parts that they dont like. "But the bible says". When you start following the bible to the letter, then you can tell everyone else how their lives should be lived.

 

PS. I am a person of faith myself. I have an absolute unshakeable faith that God doesnt exist.

[jgrimes80]

There are legal and economic benefits that come with marriage:

-- joint parenting;

-- joint adoption;

-- joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents);

-- status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent;

-- joint insurance policies for home, auto and health;

-- dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support;

-- immigration and residency for partners from other countries;

-- inheritance automatically in the absence of a will;

-- joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment;

-- inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate);

-- benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare;

-- spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home;

-- veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns;

-- joint filing of customs claims when traveling;

-- wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children;

-- bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child;

-- decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her;

-- crime victims' recovery benefits;

-- loss of consortium tort benefits;

-- domestic violence protection orders;

-- judicial protections and evidentiary immunity; plus more.

 

If anyone can marry anyone, I can see the institution of marriage being abused and ultimately futher degraded to meaninglessness.

 

If two people are truely in love and have an untraditional relationship, I do not understand why they need a traditional ceremony to prove this love.

 

The fight isn't against the Church, it's against the law... What does the government have to do with a "traditional" ceremony? Marriage is a piece of paper that gives satifaction among benefits. Giving one the right to see their life-long partner on a hospital bed in times of desperation... to let the world know that "we're pursuing a life together." This isn't an arguement towards religion, Religion is arguing with same-sex oriented relationships. Not the other way around.

 

On a side note, what separates your desire to have a "traditional" ceremony from that of homosexuals? Do you think others are inferior to you solely based on differently oriented affections? "Why do they need a ..." Why do you?

 

And last I check, marriage is already meaningless... divorce rates at records highs, adultery, pre-marital sex... and even if it wasn't, why the heck would a {censored} couple recieving the same benefits of marriage as yourself compromise your values? Marriage is what YOU make of it... only YOU ... if you're self-esteem is that low than that's homophobia right there...

 

I find that people either dont read the bible (I seem to know the bible a lot better than most Christians I meet), or they conveniently ignore the parts that they dont like. "But the bible says". When you start following the bible to the letter, then you can tell everyone else how their lives should be lived.

 

PS. I am a person of faith myself. I have an absolute unshakeable faith that God doesnt exist.

 

unfortunately, I've noticed the same thing... I think it's because many folk believe that because they go to Church and listen to a service, they're officially scholars of the Bible...

 

Ask a Christian who wrote Genesis or ask how Lucifer became the ruler of Hell....

 

HELL, ask what language the original text were written in.... lol

[gwprod12]

Adam wrote Genesis, duh ;-p

 

It says right in the bible that Moses Transcribed the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers.

 

A skeptic would wonder whether or not Moses made the whole thing up. But there's no debate that the first account was transcribed by him. (Assuming you believe Moses existed and Exodus actually happened, of course)

 

My favourite game is asking Christians what the First Commandment is. Only one has known without looking it up, so far.

[jgrimes80]

My favourite game is asking Christians what the First Commandment is. Only one has known without looking it up, so far.

 

.... that's really terrible... I've known them for as long as I can remember...

[quixos]

as i've posted before, i dont' believe one can separate political from religious in this debate.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

good Christians, please answer my question.

 

what rationalizations exist for fixating on the biblical prohibitions against homosexuality, while ignoring the rest? how does this work? what's the scoop?

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

(if you want to know why i'm so concerned, i can tell you a short story... my cousin was

basically and legally screwed out of property, and even contact with his dying lover, about 8 years ago by greedy, heartless people. he had no legal connection or rights to even be in the same room with someone he spent 10 years with while he was dying. his emotional pain was exquisite. i'm still enraged.)

[gwprod12]

Contact your congressman... or if you dont live in the united states, move here, get citizenship and then contact your congressman ;-p

[jgrimes80]

as i've posted before, i dont' believe one can separate political from religious in this debate.

 

what rationalizations exist for fixating on the biblical prohibitions against homosexuality, while ignoring the rest? how does this work? what's the scoop?

 

(if you want to know why i'm so concerned, i can tell you a short story... my cousin was

basically and legally screwed out of property, and even contact with his dying lover, about 8 years ago by greedy, heartless people. he had no legal connection or rights to even be in the same room with someone he spent 10 years with while he was dying. his emotional pain was exquisite. i'm still enraged.)

 

 

There is no other way to oppress "{censored}" people without admitting their fear of {censored} people... simply put!

 

That same thing happened to my best friend (adopted brother @ age 16)... but he died (age 24) before his partner see him. I'll tell you what, being able to see how devastated they both were made me even more devasted. I couldn't believe how hard-headed some people were... Everyone tried everything, eventually my anger got the best of me; I was arrested for assault.

 

Had it not been for my "experiences" with homosexuals (like they're some kind of wild animal), I can't honestly say I'd have the same perspective I do today. To hell with discriminatory thought...

[henbjo]

There are legal and economic benefits that come with marriage:

-- joint parenting;

-- joint adoption;

 

[...]

 

-- judicial protections and evidentiary immunity; plus more.

 

If anyone can marry anyone, I can see the institution of marriage being abused and ultimately futher degraded to meaninglessness.

 

If two people are truely in love and have an untraditional relationship, I do not understand why they need a traditional ceremony to prove this love.

 

First of all: Why shouldn't homosexuals be able to wnjoy these benefits just as much as anyone else?

 

Second: Why do you think hmosexuals would abuse the institution of marriage more than any heterosexual couple? It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Third: I'm not really sure if I get you point here. Who have mentioned a traditional ceremony? Why do you think of homosexual marriage as untraditional? It's these kind of morals that makes homosexuality untraditional and abnormal behaviour, and we need to get rid of them. Homosexuality is just that someone feel attracted to other people of the same gender instead of the opposite. Other than that, they're all the same. What is that to be afraid of? It's pathetic.

 

People with this discriminating way of thinking towards homosexuals should get a homosexual son or daughter. That should get them to reconsider their view. It's just a shame that it has to come to this point in the world, I get really upset when I read some of the posts in here.

[Ouch]

good Christians, please answer my question.

 

what rationalizations exist for fixating on the biblical prohibitions against homosexuality, while ignoring the rest? how does this work? what's the scoop?

 

Good question. Much of the levitical laws (which i presume you are refering to) are essentially civil law given to the israeli nation and as such are not really applicable to us in modern society. There are however some of these laws which are directly related to moral law (found in other books directed at everyone) and we tend to follow those laws because they are emphasised in other books of the bible particularly in new testament teachings. Hope that helps.

[Ouch]

..... The first ever, huh? 1800's BCE , Moses authored that book... Moses was married to the daughter of Jethro. I'd say Moses predated that "historically validated" document...... Moses was married, if you want I can produce more.

Yes and moses was a biblical character - in fact Abraham was married to sarai even earlier circa 2100BC - my point is you said marriage was not a religious institution, so find a record that documents an earlier marriage than those in the bible, if you don't believe in adam and eve then find a record that predates Abraham and Saraie.

 

It's not a matter of opinion... We KNOW the authors of the books are people... there is no question. In fact, the Church often refer to these authors; David, John, etc... the only controversy surrounding the authors is whether or not they had their own "political" agendas, or were directly influenced by God.

Which was what i meant too

.... this is belief, not science, and yes, the stories of the New Testament are known to have been written between 100-300 CE ... beyond the existence of the disciples and Jesus. And if you want to get technical, you could argue that it was passed around by word of mouth... but then I could come back and say no one has a perfect memory... it is extremely easy to prove that the original "Bible" which is merely a collection of books, have changed.

No, the interpretations of the NEw/Old Testaments are the same... THERE ARE NO REFERENCES IN ANY OF THE PRIMARY BOOKS MENTIONING OF SAME SEX MARRIAGES... only succumbing to lust towards the same sex, and in case you're not familiar, the same damnation applies to heterosexuals failing to resist temptations.

That's interpretation i'd dissagree with - as do many other scholars.

I do understand you're belief, and I'm not asking you to compromise you're faith. Simply to respect the faith of others. You don't get mad when a scientist teaches your kid(s) that the earth is round and millions of years old or Darwinism. Many poeple are aware of the evidence that exists and are convinced, yet we live on the same earth peacefully. Why not let a homosexual believe God loves them too... who are you to challenge such a belief? You don't have the authority... Let them be judged before God upon inevitable death; "justice" served on a platter.

I absolutely believe God loves homosexuals as he loves every other race, creed, group etc on the planet. Because i disagree with the practice does not mean i have any less respect for them. Your absolutely right, it's not my place to judge and i don't, i simply state what i believe to be right/wrong based on my interpretation of the scriptures and leave it to God to do the judging. I'm glad we agree on that.

 

Good quote... I have no intentions of conflicting with your beliefs, but religious imperialism is unwarranted and it's influence in this counrty's law is discriminatory.

I guess that will always be the nature of absolutist faiths.

[gwprod12]

When you say "in fact", please give actual evidence that Abraham and Sarai were married in or around 2100bc.

 

The Bible is not evidence.

[OryHara]

i've always wondered if the Christians who use "Leviticus 18:22" as a justification for discriminating and repressing homosexuals, avoid the other "abominations" and prohibitions of Leviticus, such as eating shrimp, mixing fabrics etc.

Discriminating is a strong word, and you are trying to put words in my mouth. I have nothing against anyone, but their sins. I like everyone, just not the devil inside them.

 

I currently have more than one girlfriend and I am loyal to both of them and they know about each other. Does that make me a bad person? Does that make me and people like me less than human? Do we need one man with a "God complex" decide what is good, bad, moral, or immoral? Wait, I forgot, he is "THE DECIDER".

Having many wives / girlfriends can create jelousy among them. This is the problem. If the wives, or girlfriends were not jelous, then there wouln't be a problem. Having many wives is not a sin, but creating jelously is. Thou shalt not covet. (because it causes Jelousy)

 

Henbjo, by that logic if a psychotic is geneticly pre-disposed to murder then that should be allowed too? Most people are selfish - there's probably a genetic reason for that too but it doesn't make it right.

This is my reasoning as well. But I would like to take it a step further.

 

For those of you out there that are {censored}, or support the sin of being {censored}. Why are you trying to get married? Why not just live together. Marriage is a bond between a MAN and a WOMAN. Marriage is a HOLY bond. Not a judicial one. Why try to bring YOUR SINS into OUR RELIGION. If you don't believe in the bible, then stay the f*** out of it, and go do your own thing by yourself. But when you start trying to bring your {censored} into OUR HOLY religion, and HOLY practices, such as marriage, then THAT IS A PROBLEM.

 

If you are going to sin, go flaunt it somwhere else, and leave us christians alone. Yea, its a free country, so go practice your free will of sin outside of a religion you don't even believe in.

 

This is the reason God threw Lucifer into hell. He told him to take is sin somewhere else. If you don't want to be part of christianity, then go the hell somewhere ELSE.

 

You don't always get what you want Satan. Thats life {censored}. Deal with it.

[jgrimes80]

For those of you out there that are {censored}, or support the sin of being {censored}. Why are you trying to get married? Why not just live together. Marriage is a bond between a MAN and a WOMAN. Marriage is a HOLY bond. Not a judicial one. Why try to bring YOUR SINS into OUR RELIGION. If you don't believe in the bible, then stay the f*** out of it, and go do your own thing by yourself. But when you start trying to bring your {censored} into OUR HOLY religion, and HOLY practices, such as marriage, then THAT IS A PROBLEM.

 

If you are going to sin, go flaunt it somwhere else, and leave us christians alone. Yea, its a free country, so go practice your free will of sin outside of a religion you don't even believe in.

 

First of all, marriage defined to between a Man and Woman is YOUR belief (you don't speak for the world)

 

Secondly, marriage IS a judicial one in this country, hence fiscal benefits among appropriated rights.

 

Thirdly, YOU sin as well... what makes you any different.

 

Fouthly, belief in the Bible has varied greatly over the years, in fact, one could argue that it's now completely corrupted. It's a matter of interpretation, not fact... who are you to decide who can practice your "holy" religion?

 

5. Who said anything about a Christian/Jewish marriage? Buddism is the common one... plz

 

This is the reason God threw Lucifer into hell. He told him to take is sin somewhere else. If you don't want to be part of christianity, then go the hell somewhere ELSE.

 

You don't always get what you want Satan. Thats life {censored}. Deal with it.

 

Real good...

 

"Hey, Billy"

-"What?"

"How'd you end up in this jail cell?"

-"The judge threw me in here..."

 

You could have at least brought up the dispute with St. Micheal... let alone mention that his sin wasn't "evil," it was pride and ambition. As the champion of the poeple, "Satan" was second to God but wouldn't admit it... hence he was judged and deemed a sinner...

 

 

 

God only created Adam and Eve... yet were all here and incest is frowned upon... the "Holy" Bible is one hell of a hypocrite anyways.

[Ouch]

When you say "in fact", please give actual evidence that Abraham and Sarai were married in or around 2100bc.

 

The Bible is not evidence.

No scentific fact or validated historical document has ever disproven the validity of the bible. It's reasonable to assume that dates and life spans as recorded in biblical genealogies are correct and i regard it as fact. My point was that the bible contains the first recorded marriages, if you believe there are earlier ones by all means post them.

God only created Adam and Eve... yet were all here and incest is frowned upon... the "Holy" Bible is one hell of a hypocrite anyways.

Incest was permissable during the days of Adam and Eve because at the time of creation our DNA was pure and the genetic defects that occur as a result of procreation between close family members did not happen. It was outlawed by God later on to protect his people from birth defects that he knew would occur as our DNA was corrupted. Interesting that this was written in the bible centuries before humans had the scientific knowledge to back it up!

 

Side: Let's try to keep it civil folks, and don't be agressive or this topic will get closed!!

[jgrimes80]

No scentific fact or validated historical document has ever disproven the validity of the bible. It's reasonable to assume that dates and life spans as recorded in biblical genealogies are correct and i regard it as fact. My point was that the bible contains the first recorded marriages, if you believe there are earlier ones by all means post them.

 

I can't produce proof off-hand, but the Mesopotamian kings were married (roughly 5000BCE)... either way though, all the Bible proves in terms of scientific validity is when Genesis was written, marriage was in existence. Native American Indians (Mayan etc.) had marriages... and they were isolated for tens of thousands of years with but not one Bible... Did God send prophets to them as well? ...Because their rituals very extremely from the western religion.

 

Incest was permissable during the days of Adam and Eve because at the time of creation our DNA was pure and the genetic defects that occur as a result of procreation between close family members did not happen. It was outlawed by God later on to protect his people from birth defects that he knew would occur as our DNA was corrupted. Interesting that this was written in the bible centuries before humans had the scientific knowledge to back it up!

 

I've read the Bible several times... and I've never come across "DNA" or something of the likings. Is this what the Church states?

 

That's acutally not as far fetched as one may think... birth defects were commonly seen in "incestous" relationships... "Keeping it in the family" was a common thing... folk 2000 years ago weren't stupid, they simply put 2 and 2 together...

 

Today, we know this is because recessive genes responsible for birth defects have a greater chance of being expose when randomly combined with family who are significantly more likely to have the same recessive gene.

 

BACK ON TOPIC

 

This arguing about thin air is rediculous, Homosexuals are people too; not be oppressed. If everyone agreed that such discrimination is wrong, then we wouldn't be discussing it on the forum. Whether or not homosexual marriages should exist isn't a matter of religion, but a matter of state. As a state, we must respect the beliefs of others. We do not live in an eccelsia so why should it be pertenient in deciding whether or not to discriminate? Why shouldn't a "{censored}" couple be permitted to pronounce their love as the rest of society. Why should a {censored} couple refrain from affection in public out of fear of being subject to scrutiny? Why should "{censored}" be oppressed in a judicial system? Why should "{censored}" be looked at with inferiority?

 

It's simple, FEAR. Fear that {censored} will take over the world and scrutinize humanity as we know it. Fear that a {censored} person standing in Church praying is going to compromise your beliefs. It's a question of religion, it's a question of self-esteem, sexual virility/confidence, and confidence in those beliefs. Something that differs from your way of life is wrong? Hardly, it's just different. {censored} have been here for thousands of years, and chances are, they aren't going anywhere. Why not give them small gift (a piece of paper + some) becuase they lead a life of oppression and deviance... because of YOU. Whether it's their choice or not is still up in the air however, science is continually compiling evidence in favor of nature rather than nurture.

[Ouch]

I don't fear {censored} people - i certainly don't look down on them with inferiority, nor should any other Christian/. I have friends who are {censored}, who know my beliefs and whom i do not judge because i am in no position to do that - nor is any other human being. I don't believe they 'resent' my belief anymore than i 'resent' them being {censored}. This is tollerance. I do not, however, believe that tollerance and discrimination are mutually exclusive. Nor is discrimination the same thing as prejudice.

Christians are called to evangelise their faith and their beliefs regarding the way we think God intended humans to live their lives and sometimes that involves standing up for what i don't deny IS discrimination. It is done (for the most part i would hope) out of love for fellow man and in the belief that God knows what is best for us all. I can't force homosexuals to accept that and i don't try - all i can do is enthusiasticly voice my beliefs and hope one day they too will reach the same belief.

So my religion calls me to object to same sex marriage precisely because Christianity does discriminate (literally: "recognize or perceive the difference") between that and God's original intention for marriage. Hopefully that clears things up and puts us back on topic.

[jgrimes80]

Then I pose this question...

 

If you were a justice on the US Supreme Court and this affair was brought before you... In honoring the Constitution and everything it stands for (everything), would you submit to outlaw it?

 

If not, then I have no battle with you...

If so, then ... persecutor!

[Ouch]

I'm british so i'm not really familiar with what the constitution actually stands for in full - but if your question was if it was my sole decision to limit marriage to between a man and a women - then yes i would. To do anything else would be a betrayal of my beliefs. I'd rather be known as someone with conviction, even if it offends others, than someone who just tries to please everyone.

[jgrimes80]

Yea well, things changed a bit since we religious refugees declared independence and fought a war... In theory, we're not supposed to infringe upon the rights of others...

 

Of these include, the freedom of religion, separation of Church and State, the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness....

 

Doesn't matter though, the Senate gave the bill to ban {censored} marriages the boot...

[gwprod12]

Let's just all agree to leave religious matters in church and the realm of belief, and secular matters in the realm of government and reason. You cannot apply reason to religious doctrine, no matter how much you might believe. No amount of reason will ever prove or disprove god, or whether or not the bible is fact. That the bible exists is fact, but that it was written by God, or Moses or Adam or whoever is just belief. Leave it at that.

[John the Geek]

If you are going to sin, go flaunt it somwhere else, and leave us christians alone. Yea, its a free country, so go practice your free will of sin outside of a religion you don't even believe in.

 

This is the reason God threw Lucifer into hell. He told him to take is sin somewhere else. If you don't want to be part of christianity, then go the hell somewhere ELSE.

 

This logic works both ways.

 

Take your asinine religious bigotry and get it the f*** out of my face. Yea, its a free country, so go practice your cultural inbreeding in a f***ing church where it belongs. Keep it out of our judicial system.

 

[OryHara]

Let's just all agree to leave religious matters in church and the realm of belief, and secular matters in the realm of government and reason. You cannot apply reason to religious doctrine, no matter how much you might believe. No amount of reason will ever prove or disprove god, or whether or not the bible is fact. That the bible exists is fact, but that it was written by God, or Moses or Adam or whoever is just belief. Leave it at that.

 

Lets all agree to leave {censored} marriage matters out of church. You cannot apply reason to heathern doctrine, no matter how free you THINK you are. No amount of reason will ever prove your scientific 'theorys'. What the bible says is FACT, it was written by God, and men that followed God. And who so ever believes in Jesus shall not perish, but have everlasting life. No matter what your sins are.

[gwprod12]

I dont know if that makes any sense...

 

But whatever.

[jgrimes80]

Lets all agree to leave {censored} marriage matters out of church. You cannot apply reason to heathern doctrine, no matter how free you THINK you are. No amount of reason will ever prove your scientific 'theorys'. What the bible says is FACT, it was written by God, and men that followed God. And who so ever believes in Jesus shall not perish, but have everlasting life. No matter what your sins are.

 

 

What the hell, scientific reason wields and fullfills the burden of proof... HELLO??? Are you not familiar with the concept of scientific theory??? Science theory is used to create the same evidence/results over and over based on a control and procedure. Biblical "evidence" is solely based on writing that could be wrong...

 

I don't see any conditions in that ideology... I guess {censored} people will get everlasting life as well...

[gwprod12]

Small confort a made-up afterlife will be to people who're attacked in the here and now.