Illegal Immigrants, Problem or Solution

[macgirl]

Opinions, thougths.

 

And I am not talking about U.S.A. only

[seitgeist]

I think the most important factor in this issue is the term illegal.

 

The pro-immigration people seem to villianize people who are anti-illegal immigration because they fail to hear that illegal word. Maybe they are hearing it, but refuse to acknowledge it.

 

The funny thing is, you can't really find anyone who is anti-immigration, because no one is. There are many anti-illegal immigration people and groups out there, but they are against the practice of breaking the law, not the people who do it.

 

My mexican step-mother sums it up best when she told me this:

 

"Why should any of those border jumpers get a free pass here when we (her family) had to do it the right way?"

 

On a more personal note, I want someone to explain to me the logic or patriotism behind the act of waving a mexican flag at a parade or protest for naturilation here in the US.........

 

 

-seitgeist

[gwprod12]

I'm unclear about your question RE: Mexican flag.

 

If Mexicans are living in this country because they want to earn money and leech off the system, but dont want to become americans, then the Mexican flag makes sense. Because they are not trying to immigrate, just be Mexicans living in america and leeching off of us.

 

If Mexicans wave flags because they are proud of their ethnic heritage... I guess that's fine, if stupid. As far as I know, no one else pledges allegiance to a foreign government (flag) while trying to be a US citizen.

 

Illegal mexican immigrants (all illegal immigrants, actually) are leeches on society. They just are. Any way you look at it, they ruin the US. If you look at it from the need to educate and give medical care, then they are leeches. If you look at it from the perspective of laws, they are leeches (and criminals). If you look at it from the perspective of farming technology, not only do they leech, but they give agricultural firms an excuse not to develop technology that does their job. Which I for one would rather have.

 

I have no problem whatsoever summarily shooting anyone who tries to cross the border (either border) illegally. They could be al-qaeda for all we know.

[Zealot]

As long as they earn money in a legal and fair way im fine with them.

[bxsci(macuser)]

illegal immigrants cant make money in a legal way

people will take advantage of them because they are here illegally and will be sent back

and they should be sent back - hence the term illegal

[gwprod12]

Yes, I mean... that's exactly correct. How does one earn a legal living, when it's required for them to be documented for it to be legal? It doesnt make sense. Illegal immigrants committed a crime by violating the border. They commit a crime every time they use someone else's social security or green card as their own. I just dont get how it's not "illegal". It's identity theft and fraud. Loss of a hand, then deportation.

[Zealot]

As long as they earn money in a legal and fair way im fine with them.

Sorry i was thinking about legal inmigrants , mi mistake.

[linkmx]

I'm mexican (living in Mexico) and conditions are less than favorable for a lot of people here, you ask why the don't do it the right way? Because it cost money and time, both of what they don't have, if they had the means to llegally get a green card, they probably wouldn't be looking for one in the first place, i think tagging them as criminals is a little harsh, since most of them are honest hard workers, and they risk their lives crossing the borders to be able to provide to their families with the basic needs, things that would be hard to do with a minimun wage of less than $4 a day (in Mexico). And if we're talking about illegal, can anyone here tell me that you haven't download anything ILLEGALLY from the internet, I know it's not the same, but I mean theorically that makes you a criminal.

[gwprod12]

Downloading off of the internet is not, strictly speaking, a crime. Piracy (production of intellectual property for profit) is a crime, and copyright infringement is a tort. Identity theft and fraud are crimes. Felonies, as a matter of fact. Illegal entry is only a misdemeanor. If people dont like their country, they should do something about it. Not invade mine. Mexico is, at least theoretically, a democracy.

 

Like I've said repeatedly, conquering Mexico is the only lasting solution to the Mexican problem.

[linkmx]

It's not that we don't like our country, in fact we love it, the thing is, like I said, conditions are not good for everyone, and it's something that is very difficult if not impossible to change, unless you have a solution for extreme poverty.

 

Downloading things from internet may not be illegal (I really don't know, I'm not a lawyer), but when you do it, you are basicaly stealing and taking away the money that should go not only to the artist, but to other people, like the person who did the cover art or the person who manufactures the cd, so you say illegal inmigrants take your jobs and your health insurance, well basicaly you're doing the same, you are a leech!!!!

 

And invading any country has never solutionated anything, that's a very George Bush-way to solve things (And EVERYBODY knows tha'ts never a good way of doing things).

[gwprod12]

No, you're wrong. Conquering another country does solve problems. When you do it right. Like take every mexican, line them up, and shoot every other one. No more mexican problem.

 

I kid, of course. But Mexico's problems are entirely of mexico's making. Rampant breeding, underdeveloped resources, graft and corruption. Why is that my problem? Why should I have to pay?

 

As for downloading music off of the internet being identical or analogous to fraud... well, what if it is? (it isnt). I Jaywalk too. No one seems to care much about Jaywalking or Torrents. They DO care about mexicans hopping the border, committing crimes, stealing identities, leeching from social services, etc. It's annoying.

 

Granted, it's not only mexicans. It's just mostly mexicans.

[Jendre]

I am quite shocked by the results of this poll so far.

 

All successful economies now and in the past rely on immigrants big time.

Take US, UK, or recently Ireland as the first examples.

You would think Switzerland is Swiss only while this country has over 30% of immigrants and doing well.

 

It is not just cheap labor but often also quality labor - people receive education overseas and then come to work in Your country. Effectively state saves billions of $ at welfare and education - in return it receives more or less skilled workers, tradesmen etc. They not only create huge part of GDP but also keep the money in circulation - paying rents, buying cars and so on. Immigrants themselves create huge demand for all sorts of goods and services - and they pay for them. They are one of important factors for booming property market in e.g. Ireland. If you take US - New York property prices are still climbing up, while in the rest of US they go down. This is, at least in part, due to extra demand from immigrants in New York.

 

If you take immigrant worker - they do not look for social benefits, health care etc - they are happy to work 10-12 hrs a day and get paid, because in their home countries they do not get chance to be rewarded for their work.

 

Excuse me for this passionate rant but hell people dont be so short sighted, it is much easier to comprehend this then say global warming, we are all in the same boat in the end...

 

Edit: I do not comment on Mexicans in US, I am European and am not familiar with troubles US are having with Mexicans. I am familiar with history and economy enough to know many problems of poor countries are to be blamed on US, UK, Russia and other powerful (now or in the past) states and their imperial politics.

[Superhai]

Well obviously, in todays world USA would be per definition be an illegal country. The big majority are immigrants and if USA had their same regulation in the 17-18ties as today almost none settling down in usa would be legal immigrants. All over the world where there are immigrants you hear usually two major arguments against it. They are a. "they are cheap labor and steal our work" and b. "they are lazy f..s just abusing our welfare". Bad right? Lazy hardworking underpaid welfare abusers.

 

Many of the forumers here live in a 'rich' country, and usually receives the immigrants. While some entering foreign countries are running from crime panalties etc. from other countries, most come here to something for a better pay or pay at all than in home. Some wants just to stay one year, some 10 and some want to settle down for good. Mostly there are three factors which regards them legal or illegal, that is if there is a need in the receiving country, if there are family relations and which nationality you have.

 

So my point, should any 'rich' country care about poor countries? Is it our problem? Well, the answer is unfortunately a big yes. Most rich countries are rich because of exploitation and misuse of resources in poor countries. Support of regimes who suppresses peoples rights and democracy are receiving funds directly or indirect (but in silent knowledge by authorities in the 'rich' countries).

 

This is luckily changing but utter slowly.

[dark4181]

I'm mexican (living in Mexico) and conditions are less than favorable for a lot of people here, you ask why the don't do it the right way? Because it cost money and time, both of what they don't have, if they had the means to llegally get a green card, they probably wouldn't be looking for one in the first place, i think tagging them as criminals is a little harsh, since most of them are honest hard workers, and they risk their lives crossing the borders to be able to provide to their families with the basic needs, things that would be hard to do with a minimun wage of less than $4 a day (in Mexico). And if we're talking about illegal, can anyone here tell me that you haven't download anything ILLEGALLY from the internet, I know it's not the same, but I mean theorically that makes you a criminal.

 

the difference is that legal immigrants, alongside (most) actual US citizens pay taxes. they don't send whatever they make home to enable more of their family to border hop

 

for every illegal immigrant that slips in (and NONE of them pay taxes) and works for cash, drains SS, medicare, etc, I have to pay more taxes; my insurance premium goes up; my social security becomes at risk, etc etc etc

 

remember the american revolution? settlers didn't like the way the England was running things, so they said "{censored} you, this is our land" and went to war. they ousted the established powerbase on sheer guts

 

if {censored} mexicans are so spineless that they can't stand up to their corrupt ass government, then boo hoo, why should law abiding people have to pay for it?

 

you don't like the way mexico does {censored}? do something about mexico. don't {censored} up my country

[Jendre]

the difference is that legal immigrants, alongside (most) actual US citizens pay taxes. they don't send whatever they make home to enable more of their family to border hop

 

again, you might want to verify this.

 

The paradox is the illegal workers often have to pay taxes which does not make them work legally.

As I said I have never worked in US so possibly this is not the case over there but I know of 2 people - working as taxi drivers in US, who got in there on tourist visa for a few months.

So they have no work permit but - they do work and pay taxes. How this is possible - I do not know, possibly some smart American citizens let wage and tax money go thru their accounts, not quite for free I presume.

 

In the UK and Republic of Ireland the system has been schizoid for years - and remains so:

You CAN enter the state on tourist Visa and if you apply for so-called social security number you will receive one. With this in hand - if you get employment you will pay taxes.

But as you are on tourist visa you are still working illegally. Most employers dont care because they think, logically, that if one pays taxes they are legal.

 

The system allows people to work illegally but ensures that they pay taxes. Once the policy makers need an easy target in pre-election time they hit on illegal workers, and get rid of a few thousands in quite spectacular manner.

 

Wake up, your wealth is, at least in part, due to poverty of other people. Your bright perspectives are, at least in part, due to lack of any perspectives for many other people.

 

British brought slavery from UK to US. You might not know that there were still slaves in Britain in XIX century. And to be honest there still are, in both countries, for illegal workers are treated and perceived as slaves or "humans of lower sort" at least. Some comments in this thread do illustrate it well.

[gwprod12]

When someone steals someone else's identity in order to work (which is usually what is happening), their employer takes a cut of their paycheck for payroll taxes. This is true. But this also increases the person who's identity has been stolen's tax burden, as they are being accounted for as earning more than they actually did, raising their adjusted gross income and their tax liability. Hundreds of thousands of people have been screwed by this, because it's very difficult to prove to the IRS that you didnt work somewhere they have documents saying you did. So, someone else is paying the tax or being held accountable for the tax that an illegal worker is generating. Because the illegal worker has no obligation to send in a check to the IRS for the taxes they owe, and really has no way of doing so.

 

It's identity theft and fraud, it's a felony, and it screws people. Your taxi driver friend is literally damaging someone else's life. Or stealing a job from a US citizen or legal resident.

[bxsci(macuser)]

Well obviously, in todays world USA would be per definition be an illegal country. The big majority are immigrants and if USA had their same regulation in the 17-18ties \

 

someone needs to check their history - in the mid-1800's any person who came to live in the United States was declaired a citizen - mainly because as soon as the men got off the boat at ellis island they were sent off to war....

[gwprod12]

Which is an excellent point. Until the twentieth century, there was no such thing as illegal immigration here. Anyone who wanted to could come to the United States, as there was a shortage of population.

[solaar]

When someone steals someone else's identity in order to work (which is usually what is happening), their employer takes a cut of their paycheck for payroll taxes. This is true. But this also increases the person who's identity has been stolen's tax burden, as they are being accounted for as earning more than they actually did, raising their adjusted gross income and their tax liability. Hundreds of thousands of people have been screwed by this, because it's very difficult to prove to the IRS that you didnt work somewhere they have documents saying you did. So, someone else is paying the tax or being held accountable for the tax that an illegal worker is generating. Because the illegal worker has no obligation to send in a check to the IRS for the taxes they owe, and really has no way of doing so.

 

It's identity theft and fraud, it's a felony, and it screws people. Your taxi driver friend is literally damaging someone else's life. Or stealing a job from a US citizen or legal resident.

This is, from an outsider's perspective, no real surprise. From what I've seen and heard in most English speaking countries, there is no such thing as a registration office for residents unlike most countries in continental Europe. (The fierce opposition of the British against the picture ID card shows the difference in mentality.) AFAIK in the US it's not much different. The first time I was in disbelief, the following times just amused when I was asked to provide a couple of personal invoices (utilities or phone bill) with my current address printed on as 'proof of residence' I could have DIY'd a couple of bills on the computer. It still cracks me up but anyway...

 

In continental Europe it basically makes no sense to even try 'stealing' somebody's identity for a longer term purpose. ID cards are very difficult to convincingly counterfeit. IDs, unlike driving licences, have your current address on it and you're obliged to have it changed when you move. The registration authorities ask for either your letting lease or the property title as proof of residence. You'll get caught in a heartbeat if you use somebody else's personal data to get a job for instance. Serious employers will ask for your picture ID. There are of course always the seedy ones (mafia-like) that don't ask any questions The thing is that the fiscal authorities have access to the personal registry. If there's a mismatch 'a red light will flash'. On the other hand in the unlikely event somebody else uses your personal data to get on a job you have the right to have the details investigated at the company. Then it's up to the company to prove it was really you who was hired, by providing the copy of the picture ID they should have made when the identity thief applied for the job.

 

If you implement preventive measures up front you keep potential abuse at a manageable minimum. A lot of problems in general can be anticipated with prevention - instead of leaving all doors open and then repress trespassing and swamp prisons with petty criminals.

 

This of course can only work if a certain mindset exists among the population.

[gwprod12]

I dont understand how the federal government is supposed to track everyone's job on a daily basis. It's not practical. Employers are required to take proof of identity as well as proof of right to work in the united states. Now, if there was a way to cross-check picture-ID with social security card, then it might work... but picture ID is administered on the state level, social security on the federal, and they dont mix. Not because they're incompetent, but because 1) people dont want a federal ID card, and 2) there are constitutional issues with it.

 

By and large employers are well-aware they're hiring illegal aliens, and just dont care. Because they can plead ignorance if caught.

 

If I visited Germany and decided to stay (like my ex-boyfriend. He's an illegal in Berlin, and has been for 5ish years), how exactly is the german government going to know I'm not supposed to be there and identify me? Magic?

[solaar]

If I visited Germany and decided to stay (like my ex-boyfriend. He's an illegal in Berlin, and has been for 5ish years), how exactly is the german government going to know I'm not supposed to be there and identify me? Magic?

I don't know how Germany in particular handles those things. I know for sure in CH and FR if you steal somebody's identity to get a job - that's what the issue was about - it won't be long to ring a bell somewhere and to get you busted. The point is that everything you require for a functioning personal infrastructure will bounce back to a picture ID with your current address.

Without it it's basically a balancing act on a thin rope and you'll have a very hard time to ever stand on your own feet. You'll always be dependent on others who would then in fact support an illegal act. Another question is then, how 'trustworthy' are those 'supporters'?

 

The problem which is actually the really rampant one in Europe is the number of EU citizens and legal aliens being employed 'under the counter'. That very often concerns those who cash in twice tax-free, from unemployment and illegal labour. The real culprit are the companies that accept or even promote this kind of behaviour and thus give a bad example to illegal aliens and a distorted picture of what's apparently possible to get away with.

[Alessandro17]

If I visited Germany and decided to stay (like my ex-boyfriend. He's an illegal in Berlin, and has been for 5ish years), how exactly is the german government going to know I'm not supposed to be there and identify me? Magic?

 

It can be done (living illegally in a European country) of course. We have plenty of illegal immigrants in Italy. But in the end being illegal means having no rights and suffering all sort of abuses from unscrupulous people. And don't forget that most European countries have a good Welfare State, like free medical treatment (in Italy and England) and much more, which normally can be enjoyed only by legal residents.

[macgirl]

And don't forget that most European countries have a good Welfare State, like free medical treatment (in Italy and England) and much more, which normally can be enjoyed only by legal residents.

That's the thing I can't understand, people say that illegal immigrants represent costs of social services but most of them are available only if you have a Social Security Number or other ID.

 

Many tasks like harvest is done mainly by illegal immigrants so people can have cheap products, but instead they complain about the costs of social services.

 

Can anyone make an exercise or make the numbers with US citizens employed instead of illegal immigrants, how much the price of products will rise and how much the cost of social services will down. I'm surely some will complain about it too.

[Alessandro17]

That's the thing I can't understand, people say that illegal immigrants represent costs of social services but most of them are available only if you have a Social Security Number or other ID.

 

Many tasks like harvest is done mainly by illegal immigrants so people can have cheap products, but instead they complain about the costs of social services.

 

Can anyone make an exercise or make the numbers with US citizens employed instead of illegal immigrants, how much the price of products will rise and how much the cost of social services will down. I'm surely some will complain about it too.

 

Macgirl, I wasn't complaining about anything. I was explaining gwprod12 what are the disadvantages of being an illegal immigrant in Europe.

[macgirl]

Macgirl, I wasn't complaining about anything. I was explaining gwprod12 what are the disadvantages of being an illegal immigrant in Europe.

I know, I quoted you because you gave a good point.