bofors Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 My official recommendation is to get the Core 2 Duo E6700... He actually may need to get a dual socket system, it really is not clear yet. Apple should be announcing the a new 8 core Mac Pro on Jan. 9, if they are agressively priced (at anywhere near $3500), it could be a great choice here. But I think it might be much more expensive, we will see. Anyways, I have that to say the E6700 is not the best choice for 775 socket chip. He is much better off going with a Xeon 3060 which is the "server" grade version of the E6600, or even the Xeon 3050. There chips are much cheaper than an E6700 and can be expect to overclock better than a E6700. "Xeon" branded Conroes are tested to be of higher quality than the consumer models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asap18 Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 @Bofors, you know hes not going to overclock, most people want their box working out of the box and dont want to tinker with fsb settings and ram timings/speed. Are clovertowns in that good of a supply to be released in the mac pros? I saw a forum topic that said the 3.2 ghz dempsey (essentially has 4 cores due to hyperthreading) and a 2 ghz woodcrest performed the same with the woodcrest using much less power and being a few dollars cheaper. I think you should stay with the firegl card (1 GB of vram ) as those are fine tuned for CAD industries. Save money and build it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wow Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 yep but if ypu build it yourself and it doens work, goodluck. I did it myself before. But today i let it build. Most of the times with a little talk it doenst cost me extra. The software installing and tuning and overclocking is the part where i get excited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofors Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 @Bofors, you know hes not going to overclock... I don't know what he is going to do, I certainly recommend overclocking for workstation type applications. Are clovertowns in that good of a supply to be released in the mac pros?I think the only question is how much the 8 core Mac Pro will cost and perhaps whether or not Apple upgrades the motherboard to support the full 32 GB of RAM that the 5000 series chipset can support. (essentially has 4 cores due to hyperthreading) This is a little misleading for people who do not understand some critical details. It is better to say it has 4 "virtual" cores due to "hyperthreading". While "hyperthreading" (which is Intel's marketing name for scheduling simultaneous threads on a single core) works well on other chips, Intel's implementation of it on the Penitum type chips sucks and in most cases they are faster with hyperthreading turned off: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthreading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simultaneous_multithreading Save money and build it yourself. As I said before, you can buy a new Mac Pro for less than it costs to build yourself. This is a good reason to seriously consider it, other reasons are that this is perhaps one of the best computers ever built (despite the fact that it is stuck with FB-DIMMs) and of course, you can run OS X on it unhacked. If I had to use engineering-type Windows applications, I would certainly consider running them on OS X with Parallels or VMWare's virtualization software on an 8 core Mac Pro provided there were no technical problems. If memory bandwidth is not really an issue with these types of applications and it all comes down to CPU or GPU power, and it looks like it might be this way, than FB-DIMMs are really not big problem here, especially if you do not need more than 4 GB to get started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsanelyMe Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 I'm not a CAD guy, I mostly use Strata, but rendering is rendering, so I'd like to add a few things cost effective measures others haven't mentioned. Number one, study up on ray tracing. Most people use way too steep of ray tracing parameters. You may be able to get the same results with much less overhead by turning down your parameters. You don't have too many objects in the picture posted and probably don't need a huge amount of reflectivity bounces, transparency layers, volume light samples, etc. These can really slow you down when not needed. Another thing to do is keep all your old computers and network them together. Depending on your CAD program, you may be able to create a "Render Farm" with your networked computers, and divide the rendering task among them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgrimes80 Posted January 2, 2007 Author Share Posted January 2, 2007 I'm not a CAD guy, I mostly use Strata, but rendering is rendering, so I'd like to add a few things cost effective measures others haven't mentioned. Number one, study up on ray tracing. Most people use way too steep of ray tracing parameters. You may be able to get the same results with much less overhead by turning down your parameters. You don't have too many objects in the picture posted and probably don't need a huge amount of reflectivity bounces, transparency layers, volume light samples, etc. These can really slow you down when not needed. Another thing to do is keep all your old computers and network them together. Depending on your CAD program, you may be able to create a "Render Farm" with your networked computers, and divide the rendering task among them. the previously posted "chrome" bearing is considered to be of "acceptable" quality according to the project's finacial backer... http://www.mydatabus.com/public/Files/e/be...y_rendering.jpg this is "better" - to save my ass, I said this is as good as it gets even it can still go further. The biggest issue with the animated rendering is the demand for a higher resolution for visual clarity and request that the final videos are at lest 45 fps (though they'll be dead lucky if I give them anything over 20) A render cluster would be nice, but considering that my 15" C2D MBP takes it's time, I REALLY doubt a P4 would put a dent in my wait. In addition, I'd have to get a third-party rendering software like Maxwell Render and then I'd have to buy 3dsmax so my other systems (UGS & PTC) can take advantage of it... It's way to much of an investment. If I were a multimedia firm, definitely yes. But I'm just trying to add a finishing touch to my capacity. I really don't have a problem with starting a rendering and taking off for the evening or for the weekend etc... I just know that a P4 won't cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgrimes80 Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 I'm sold... Used it, happy with it's performance... can dedicate rendering processes to specific CPU's -> Switch User -> start a new session and continue working smoothly and effectively. Everything is pretty wicked fast. I finally go the details about an hour ago... It's a Dell Precision 490: Dual Xeon E5345 8 (x2) GB DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory Genuine Windows XP Professional x64 512MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 4500 RAID 5 - three SATA 10k RPM Hard Drives 1394a Card 3-year warranty - Two things I plan on doing differently though... 1. RAID 0 - I back-up nightly by default, it's been my way since my first HD failure... and should be everyone else's 2. 1394b card- since I already have an external 1TB back-up drive with only this interface. I'm pretty conifident now, especially since I got to use the machine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofors Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Dual Xeon E5345 These are Clovertowns. How much is Dell asking for this box? If you end up ordering this, make sure you haggle with Dell to get at least a few hundred bucks off their asking price. Also make sure they give you their "Advanced Exchange" coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe75 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 How much is Dell asking for this box? http://www.dell.com/content/products/produ...;l=en&s=bsd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofors Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 http://www.dell.com/content/products/produ...;l=en&s=bsd This looks pretty expensive, Dell wants almost $2k for the second Clovertown. I bet Apple's new Mac Pro will be a much better deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe75 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Apple will probably cost more in the end for the almost same features Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofors Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Dell's is asking way too much for the second Clovertown (Xeon E5345): http://www.pcnation.com/web/filtersearch.a...=Xeon+Quad+Core You could save yourself a grand just by buying one yourself and popping it in. In fact, I do not think Dell is offering that great of a deal here at all, the price on the video card and first Clovertown does not look that good either. I would almost certainly just build it myself instead. The motherboard, case and PSU that Dell is selling here are not really that great, you can do a lot better a la carte. Then of course, you do not really want any RAM from Dell anyways, but rather a full set of 8 GB at a good discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgrimes80 Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 (edited) My deadline to get the machine is April... Either way, I will not end up paying full price for niether an Apple nor a Dell and never have... as I have a friend who works at one (Employee Discount) and another at Applied Materials who can purchase it with "bulk" pricing. You'll have to pardon the mess in the picture (trying to get through a divorce), but you get the idea... For me though, the biggest thing was "What to get?" rather than $$$. They could jack these systems up 300% across the board, I still need one... -sorry about the massive picture... I just now reduced it though Edited January 3, 2007 by jgrimes80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe75 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 (edited) If price is not a factor and you don't really give a {censored}, I would go for the Mac Pro and then theres no f@cking around. It looks like you have a handle on macs already and you can just use bootcamp or something to deal with windows. Edited January 3, 2007 by joe75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofors Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 (trying to get through a divorce) Sorry to hear about that, I am sure it is no fun at all. The idea keeps me from getting married in the first place. For me though, the biggest thing was "What to get?" rather than $$$. They could jack these systems up 300% across the board, I still need one... The other thing really bad about that Dell is that it only has a single 16x PCIe slot, where you really want to have at least two and the Mac Pro has four. The Tyan Tempest i5000XT has two 16x PCIe slots and can hold up to 32 GB of RAM, it certainly is a much better board that whatever Dell is using too: http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.as...5000&page=5 These guys have it for only $431.95: http://sector29.com/PRODUCT_PAGES/134/134-...MB-S2696A2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe75 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Tyans are real dogs and they geared for complete servers and have very little in bios. I would go with ASUS for a duel cpu board but if I was going to spend big bucks I would just get the mac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgrimes80 Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 (edited) If price is not a factor and you don't really give a {censored}, I would go for the Mac Pro and then theres no f@cking around.It looks like you have a handle on macs already and you can just use bootcamp or something to deal with windows. It's not that I don't "give a {censored}" ... price IS a factor and I was told I should expect to pay 10k for a good one (I really don't want to go over that): it's like this; If my dog gets sick (I LOVE MY DOG!) and the vet bill is 1000 dollars... whether I want to or not, I'm going to because I have to (maybe not in everyone's POV) ... if it were 3000, that's alot of money for a dog, if I could do it, I will. Why? because I have to. Same thing with CADD/CAE/CAM ... This business is dependent on competent machines... expensive or not Edited January 3, 2007 by jgrimes80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe75 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 you're only gonna have half your money soon so I would think affordable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofors Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Tyans are real dogs and they geared for complete servers and have very little in bios. I would go with ASUS for a duel cpu board ... None of these 771 boards have overclocking features yet, and I do not think that Asus makes one with two 16x PCIe slots either. I would go for the Mac Pro...I probably would too, but I would certainly test these CAD programs out on it first (with Parallels, Bootcamp or whatever). Same thing with CADD/CAE/CAM ... This business is dependent on competent machines... expensive or not What are you doing with 5 laptops? I mean, one seems to be enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgrimes80 Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 (edited) you're only gonna have half your money soon so I would think affordable I'm consultant engineer ... She is an extremely successful interior designer... it's definitely been more way more rough on me than her and that's probably the only way she'll come out ahead. FYI: MONEY is the root of all evil... no matter what happens, no matter who negates this... It didn't work out because we greatly differed on money habits. I shop @ Sears, Kohls and the Men's Warehouse She's shops (idk where) but comes home w/ Gucci and Prada and designer wear. I have predefined system for money allocation including retirement/taxes/investments/fun money/morgage etc. She'll blow a year's pay on a trip to three-week trip to Europe (twice) I'm a "buy what I need when I need it because I need it" She's a "buy what I want when I want to because I can" This all leads to arguements... blah blah blah life goes on. Sorry about the vent... I probably would too, but I would certainly test these CAD programs out on it first (with Parallels, Bootcamp or whatever).What are you doing with 5 laptops? I mean, one seems to be enough for me. Understand the circumstances... I don't have 5 just laying around... lol there's actually 8. 7 engineers plus one intern... we all need something portable for presentations (yes 8 projectors and all sort of other accessories). The PPC's are running OSX and Linux and the Intel's running XP and OSX giving all of us have what we need to work while mobile. I was able to get rid of my Sony Vaio and Lenovo when bootcamp was annouced in favor of two MBP's (bad call on the first one!)... So we've primarily got G4/G5 PowerMacs(?) which is why I didn't/don't know much about what I need/needed... Parallels definitely does not fit the bill... Bootcamp is definitely the one and only option. On my MBP, the drivers are a little shaky XP (specifically bluetooth). I was under the impression that the experience hasn't improved much... I wonder who I could speak to and get a better idea of how reliable it is. Edited January 3, 2007 by jgrimes80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofors Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Sorry about the vent... It is good to get that stuff out. 7 engineers plus one intern...That's what I thought might be going on, employees. Parallels definitely does not fit the bill... Bootcamp is definitely the one and only option. On my MBP, the drivers are a little shaky XP (specifically bluetooth). I was under the impression that the experience hasn't improved much... I wonder who I could speak to and get a better idea of how reliable it is. Well, the other problem with the Mac Pro is that the case only holds 4 hard drives and hardware RAID is not supported (yet) either. Moreover, I do think there is anyway to get RAID 5 on OS X at all (yet). Furthemore, if you stick with Apple's OEM Nvidia cards, you will probably get stuck paying too much there too. You can get exactly what you want at the best possible price by just building it yourself (or having an employee do it). Lian Li makes some great aluminum cases for a machine like this, they can hold a lot of hard drives which is what you want for some serious RAID here: Lian Li sells original drive bay face plates, so it now problem to get rid of that stupid 3.5" drive cover here or add more optical drives. Most models come in silver and black: NewEgg has a decent Lian Li selection but it is not complete: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList....p;SubCategory=7 The Lian Li "Cube" (PC-343B) might also be a good choice for a real workstation like this (and I am sure that even Steve Jobs thinks it is really cool): http://www.xoxide.com/lian-li-pc-343b-case.html You could then get a high end PSU like the Silverstone ST85ZF 850W: http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.ph...&page_num=1 Investing in these types of reusable high quality components, building it in-house and taking a more agressive upgrade schedule (whereas you are prepared to upgrade the CPU's within two years) actualy makes a lot of sense. It saves you money while providing you and your staff with the best technology available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgrimes80 Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 How difficult is it to build one? Scale of 1-10...maybe a little bit as to what's entailed... Is it possible to screw up and rendering something useless or a waste of money?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe75 Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 (edited) jgrimes80, have you ever built a PC before. If you dont mind the price, maybe go for the Dell. You would need to wait for Leopard to get your storage needs and if the programs you're using are on Windows, they will run best on a PC. You can also add on a nice warrenty for peace of mind Edited January 4, 2007 by joe75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asap18 Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 jgrimes80, i built my first computer at 12 years old. Its very easy. Usually there are instructions with both the motherboard and case for proper mounting. In addition, when building you get to customize your build with your choice of motherboard, case, and cooling. The biggest problem is you not mounting it on the case right, and when you turn it on you will short circuit and fry the motherboard (No big ) Anyway im sure we will be happy to guide you through this if you choose to build. If you don't feel comfortable, then don't risk it and use Dell to your convenience. Either way you go, buy the 2nd cpu from the links bofors gave and not from dell. You could save 500 bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgrimes80 Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 (edited) I've never built a PC, but I'm sure as hell not a typical moron... Could anyone who's built one before take care of it??? As far as price goes... (which I just noticed the 2.66GHz Kentfield dropped 200 in price on newegg.com : $999 now)... if we're talking minimal savings probably not, but if were taking maybe a thousand, (ie; RAM in our machines has never came from Apple but from Ramjet typically saves a boatload) At the same token, I don't want to end up in this boat again... Coming up with a solution that I can upgrade/expand would be an extremely nice feature; basically get a new(er) computer without the new(er) price tag... @ asap18... 12 y/o building computers, I'm impressed. @ 12 y/o I was still playing with LEGOS... Peace of mind (warrantee) is nice, but down time is down time... if building my own workstation, or adding temporary staff to include it could speed up the fixing process... I'd be content. I back up EVERYTHING on an external HD and have third copies of current builds so I don't freak out when things go wrong. I learned earlier on that data integrity is EXTREMELY important... Edited January 4, 2007 by jgrimes80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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