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Why are we obligated to be Patriotic?


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I completely agree.

 

When I was referring to patriotism in these posts, I was referring to what we call patriotism in everyday speech, not what it actually is.

 

I think it actually is as you described. That is why I just get physically sick when I hear idiots claiming to be patriots...

 

Exactly; waving some flag that was made in China has nothing to do with being patriotic, it is the exact opposite, and is in fact Government Worship.

 

Patriots are the ones that confront a public servent that acts holier than thou, and exposes him for what he is. A patriot defends himself when his government knocks down his door. A patroit impeaches his president for war crimes. A patriot asks questions about 9/11, and asks why his questions are unaswered. A patriot shoots back when being shot at. A patriot uses a bullhorn outside of a "Free Speech Zone".

 

A true patriot asks his government "What are you hiding?".

 

I once asked Trent Lott, while he was on a local news station, live, "Sir, where do you take a {censored} every day? On the senate floor, or on the people that voted for you?". I think he wanted to kill me after that.

 

I got booed by some mindless zombies, but If I woke up 10 people out of 1000 to look up what he voted on, then I won.

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  • 1 month later...
Except, that in the Bible it says:

 

in Corinthians 14:34

"Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says."

 

Therefore, according to Christianity, we are not equal. Men AND women are obviously treated differently socially (when it comes to rules in the Bible).

Or maybe women were treated different socially and Paul's point was not break social customs merely to demonstrate the real equality of women ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female"). Anyone who has studied American church history knows that women have been the political and cultural force in American Christianity. The social norm of male pastors/elders/etc. in some corners of Christianity means little in this question.

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Or maybe women were treated different socially and Paul's point was not break social customs merely to demonstrate the real equality of women ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female"). Anyone who has studied American church history knows that women have been the political and cultural force in American Christianity. The social norm of male pastors/elders/etc. in some corners of Christianity means little in this question.

 

The statement that I made had nothing to do with social aspects of churches/America, etc. It had everything to do with what was written down in this book called the bible, and what people are actually taught when they read this book, I am not asking you to justify it, etc. I am simply stating a fact, that in this book it says "...". How am I supposed to know what Christians really mean when I cant even get an accurate picture from reading the book they all warship?

 

The answer is that people make up their own morality, but for some reason, when we do this, our morality seems illegitimate because it is not greater than ourselves, if it is greater than ourselves, somehow it is supposed to mean more. Almost every single person on this planet makes up their own morality within the context of their social construction, Christianity is part of that social construction; Nothing more. How could you know what paul was thinking? You cant, you live roughly 2000 years after a set of events from a set of people who are 2000 years out of sync with your values.

 

Throw the book away, use logical reasoning instead, it will make a lot more sense and will get you a lot further.

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How could you know what paul was thinking? You cant, you live roughly 2000 years after a set of events from a set of people who are 2000 years out of sync with your values.

 

Well, there is actual science to understanding what author's were thinking. 

 

 

Throw the book away, use logical reasoning instead, it will make a lot more sense and will get you a lot further.

By that "logic" we should throw all books away. They are all out of date. Why should we not question whether our poorly evolved brains even can think dependable at all? Logic is a tool, and it needs all the good data it can get, so I'll be keeping my books.

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Well, there is actual science to understanding what author's were thinking. 

 

 

By that "logic" we should throw all books away. They are all out of date. Why should we not question whether our poorly evolved brains even can think dependable at all? Logic is a tool, and it needs all the good data it can get, so I'll be keeping my books.

 

Um...that wasn't my point at all. All books should be kept around. Historically, every book can teach us something about the people of that time, but if you are using it as a moral compass, rather than selecting what you like out of the piece and what you don't like, either follow what you read (if you are christian), or throw it away and use a different morality (my suggestion was logical reasoning).

 

I NEVER advocate the burning of books, I think that the right decision can be made when everybody has their say, even if we don't agree.

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In gods eyes were all equal. But coming to a big point here America has the freedom most people would like or even love to have. Seriously as an American if the government needed my help i would help them it's a common duty to do unto as unto do to yourself you must understand how many people lost they're live giving what they had to give us what we have today. If we cannot help but to enjoy it the slightest bit or even stand up for our freedom when it's in danger. We as Americans could be in Israel eating nothing or in Africa and not have clothes on our backs. Honestly i am truly proud of what i am today my nation also no matter what they do even if i do not like it ill stand behind them just because i have what i have today because of what someone did for me years ago giving they're life for mine......U.S.M.C......I look up to my grandpa in every single aspect of life he may not talk much but when you give all you have for your country and come home to your grand children and they see you as a hero because you faught for your country.... Its heart warming.....My nation is our nation there is no other way... and theyre will not be anyone to stand in the way of my freedom and how i live :) We ARE THE USA "IYAOYAS"

 

TROWSK

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How could you know what paul was thinking? You cant, you live roughly 2000 years after a set of events from a set of people who are 2000 years out of sync with your values.

Oh, if only there were a prophet to tell us what the scriptures really mean!

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  • 1 month later...

This is a very interesting topic, how could I missed it?

I was always asking myself should I be patriotic or not. And I was doing it since 8, so it has been some time already.

First we have to ask: What is patriotism? I can't fully answer for this question until today. Is patriotism all about hard work and building strong economy, like Japan? Or maybe by obeying government, like in Russia or China? (We won't "export" our democracy there, because their citizens simply don't want it...) Or maybe just going to war when it's needed?

 

My EU friends, mostly form Germany ask me often why I (or We - Poland) prefer USA more than Russia. In their opinion these both country are not saint. But my answer is simple: USA got something called "constitution", and it is the most important thing ever. It says that FREEDOM is on the FIRST place always. (BTW Poland got 2nd world constitution, right after US, maybe that's why freedom is so important to us too).

As a members of democratic countries, and as patriotic citizens, defending freedom is the most important thing ever. Everyone should do it in his own way (I want to be an independent journalist for example). But we should also realise what is freedom. Bush says that he's bringing peace to Iraqis. Democrats says that troops are killing civilians. Every of them got some point, because those poor people was living in a totalitarian country, on the other hand no one asked all Iraqis "Do you want our freedom". You can also see differences in different forces: When civilian run into US soldier, he got right to shoot at him if he won't stop (maybe he's a suicide bomber, and US soldier just saved his 10 mates?). Our (Polish) soldiers shoot few civilians during mortar attack by mistake and they will be judged in our country for murderer (they will get like 6-10 years, but it's still quite a lot!). Look at this: both points makes sense.

So can we define real patriotism? I don't really think so. We should just do our best. I won't argue that killing is always wrong (IMO), because as you see my opponent will have other arguments that makes sense.

And if we are talking about countries like China... I will always support e.g. Tibet. They are fighting for freedom and they got right to be independent. Same with Georgia, Kosovo, or Abkhazia (yes, they got right to be independent too).

BUT in culture like Chinese or Russian obeying government rules is perfectly normal for citizens, and I know many people from Russia. They come to Poland, see that we are richer than them (if we're talking about normal citizens, not higher class). But they are not rioting, and they really support Putin or Miedwiediew. Why should we decide what's good for them or not? Just let them decide, at least unless they are not murdered by government in many street riots.

 

Sorry for long post and terrible English ;)

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  • 2 months later...

I've grew up in this country since I was 7 when I came over but My faith is already gone anyway. After I graduate I am relinquishing my U.S Citizenship status. I will still have a home back in Europe. What I hate about the US the most is about the percentage of the population does not realize, The United States is not the the only country in the world, It is ridiculous actually. Sure My Parents and siblings are here but It will have to be a sacrifice when I leave.

 

Sorry if this was off topic.

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I've grew up in this country since I was 7 when I came over but My faith is already gone anyway. After I graduate I am relinquishing my U.S Citizenship status. I will still have a home back in Europe. What I hate about the US the most is about the percentage of the population does not realize, The United States is not the the only country in the world, It is ridiculous actually. Sure My Parents and siblings are here but It will have to be a sacrifice when I leave.

 

Sorry if this was off topic.

 

Well I think a large chunk of your problem is where you are. Kansas is the state that started teaching creationism a couple of years back, so you're in one of the most conservative and fundamentalist christian areas in the US. You should really try one of the more cosmopolitan states on the coasts, before you give up on the US.

 

I don't know when you graduate, but I'd also give Obama at least a year or two to try fixing some of the abuses of the Bush years. Given his background, I also suspect he may help make the US at least somewhat more conscious of other countries and our links to and from them.

 

That said, I suspect the only person who's going to care about you renouncing US citizenship is you. It isn't going to change anything over here. The Government isn't going to change what they are doing, because person X is renouncing their US citizenship. So it seems likely that the only thing you'll be accomplishing is to make it more difficult for you to visit the US.

 

I don't know the specific legal issues involved, but (IANAL) I suspect it is at the very least difficult and more likely impossible to undo something like that. So what ever issues you have with the US, renouncing your citizenship is not something you should do casually or because of any one issue. It can and likely will, have repercussions for the rest of your life.

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Well I think a large chunk of your problem is where you are. Kansas is the state that started teaching creationism a couple of years back, so you're in one of the most conservative and fundamentalist christian areas in the US. You should really try one of the more cosmopolitan states on the coasts, before you give up on the US.

Yep, it's all about location.

 

I'd also give Obama at least a year or two to try fixing some of the abuses of the Bush years.

I was just about to post this too. I'd give it a year or two and you'll see some really great things happening here now that bush is going to be out of the picture :blush:

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2010, and true actually, I was looking at living in one of the states in the coasts somewhere because, I want out of the Midwest. I will go insane if i live here any longer and probably living in Kansas is contributing to my depression but enough of that. I'll stay another year or 2 til do my general course classes at the Community College here than transfer somewhere else. I was looking at California since some of my dads family moved over there a few years back.

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2010, and true actually, I was looking at living in one of the states in the coasts somewhere because, I want out of the Midwest. I will go insane if i live here any longer and probably living in Kansas is contributing to my depression but enough of that. I'll stay another year or 2 til do my general course classes at the Community College here than transfer somewhere else. I was looking at California since some of my dads family moved over there a few years back.

 

Anti-depressants do work and they have helped me considerably, as well as my mother. If you are having problems with depression, you should talk to a doctor about it. It isn't something you need to suffer from. It's not an issue of character or moral fortitude, your brain chemistry can just be screwed up.

 

Though, from what I understand there can be some risks with teens (sounds like you still might be in your late teens). As I understand it, it seems that when you are coming out of the depression it is possible to hit a point where you are no longer too lethargic from the depression to commit suicide, but not sufficiently cured to be over the desire. But a lot of that comes down to your reactions to things and your mindset. Just make sure you are talking to your physician and your parents about it.

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Anti-depressants do work and they have helped me considerably, as well as my mother. If you are having problems with depression, you should talk to a doctor about it. It isn't something you need to suffer from. It's not an issue of character or moral fortitude, your brain chemistry can just be screwed up.

 

Though, from what I understand there can be some risks with teens (sounds like you still might be in your late teens). As I understand it, it seems that when you are coming out of the depression it is possible to hit a point where you are no longer too lethargic from the depression to commit suicide, but not sufficiently cured to be over the desire. But a lot of that comes down to your reactions to things and your mindset. Just make sure you are talking to your physician and your parents about it.

As of December 27th, I will be 17 so you are right on the dot about late teens. Both my parents know about my depression as of yesterday. I have never used drugs, I rarely drink I never party like a lot of people my age. And some part of my depression is that my mum moved and I decided to stay here because of School, I want to finish school in the p.o.s town I live in. (she lives in the next state Missouri) So I just am dealing with it. Maybe i will feel better after my foreign exchange next year to Germany.

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As of December 27th, I will be 17 so you are right on the dot about late teens. Both my parents know about my depression as of yesterday. I have never used drugs, I rarely drink I never party like a lot of people my age. And some part of my depression is that my mum moved and I decided to stay here because of School, I want to finish school in the p.o.s town I live in. (she lives in the next state Missouri) So I just am dealing with it. Maybe i will feel better after my foreign exchange next year to Germany.

 

Depression the disease (as opposed to "just" the emotion) has a strong genetic/biological component, so it is something different from just feeling down or because of a specific thing. If it's something that's lasted months or years, then it's unlikely to just be "normal" depression. It can be triggered by things like drug use, but it doesn't have to have a cause or source. In fact that's one of the strongest indications, if there isn't a good reason for you to be depressed (though obviously this is a highly subjective question).

 

I finally knew I had to go get help, after years of my mother nagging me to, when I got like a 25% raise at work and had to PRETEND to be happy about it.

 

So if you have health care that will cover it, there is no need to suffer. Your family doctor can prescribe them, you don't need to see a psychiatrist or specialist for something like this.

 

Also expect to try several different drugs, figuring out the exact effect the drugs will have on your brain chemistry is not something they've worked out yet. So there is going to be a fair amount of trial and error. Some may have side effects, but that's something you will need to keep in touch with your doctor about.

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I feel for you. My wife suffers from this from time to time. The medications can help. Don't count on Germany making the difference, either. Note that George's 25% raise didn't seem to lift his spirits. I wish I understood this better but I don't. I can only empathize (or is it sympathize?).

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  • 1 month later...

killbot1000 .... this is all because stuff to make the american people lazy has been put in place and the gov wants to be bigger and bigger and the people only know lets let them get bigger maybe we will get a hand out...... we are in debt out our ass and people think that sure its ok our big huge gov has this... and then they print more $$ making our hard earned $$ for those of us left willing oto work hard ... more and more worth less and in tern opening trade with other countries when we are really too worthless to be trading with anyone else........america needs to learn to stand on her own 2 feet again before it can get better.... and im do not think this will happen EVER!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hy. I agree to franky mac.

Not only because I'm not an american citizen. I'm sorry to write that in Europe the typical 'image' af an american is of egocentric people. Mean: person who think that there are only them.. But it's normal. BECAUSE: We're in 2009 but the country that won the 2th world war decides.. and commands. This is made of half century of american films.. american tv formats.. american style.. music.. fashion.. that come in Europe. After 60 years I think that there is a very big sign of United Stetes.. of the commercial side of USA. But we've not a good image..

Think: it's very easy to have clear information about foreigner country.. but very hard to have information on ours.

for example.. we're very critical about USA.. about events deprecables.. about the not good past (indians.. civil war..etc.. ) and we used to speak badly about usa.. because of the past.. and the excess of freedom that represent with the excess of bigotry .. it's very strange! another strangeness is the heterogenous confusion of cultures.. so we think: how can they have a Group Identity? like this topics.. how can they think to be patriotic if they are what they are?

but it's easy..easy that we don't think that in Italy there is a lot of corruption.. and persons who represent the country with dozen of sentences closed for prescription or cancelled for immunity parliamentarian.

 

It's not easy to be patriotic.. but I think for absurdity that the real patriotic not depend by its country.. it's not a game of who live in the best country.. the country which has less bad reputation!

 

this begin from the power of our civil way to be..

 

bye

sorry for bad lang

guido

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