God, why don't people believe in the idea?

[james2mart]

I never posted a link. There was no official news story or anything. This morning was kinda rough for him and they're (obviously) worried about motor problems being revealed by the MRI and EEG today. You can read what the parents have been writing at

 

www.caringbridge.com/visit/samseidel

 

EDIT: I posted this when I told the small version of the story:

A friend of the family's 2 year old child fell in a swimming pool on Saturday. This child was without oxygen for 20 minutes according to the doctors. He is still alive. He still has brain function (we still don't know how much; its too early to tell). He only relies on the respirator about 30 percent. Every doctor said he should already be dead.

[killbot1000]

Just to throw a wrench into the gears possibly. Maybe he wasn't without oxygen for 20 minutes, maybe it was 15, or 12? This is not verifiable in my opinion and should not be considered PROOF just because you told us so.

[gwprod12]

People surviving and recovering after being drowned for 20 minutes is not unprecedented at all. Especially the very young. It can even depend on where you live. A lot of drowning victims have been protected by the Mammalian Dive Reflex.

 

I find it highly incredible that the doctors are standing around dumbfounded at this "miracle".

 

Though the weather in Baton Rouge on the 24th was not cold enough.

[killbot1000]

If people need their mental band-aid, let them have it, just don't try to argue against reality.

[brainbone]

Though the weather in Baton Rouge on the 24th was not cold enough.

 

He's still young. The young brain still has a good chance.

 

I certainly hope the parents aren't putting ALL their faith in God, but are instead using some of their time looking for every specialist they can find in this field.

[james2mart]

Just to throw a wrench into the gears possibly. Maybe he wasn't without oxygen for 20 minutes, maybe it was 15, or 12? This is not verifiable in my opinion and should not be considered PROOF just because you told us so.

 

There's a test doctors can do to estimate the minimal time of oxygen deprivation. This tests results were "at least 20 minutes." Also, based on the timeframe of how long they were looking for the kid, this is a very accurate estimate.

 

The doctors are amazed that the brain didn't swell, not that he's alive. Of course, it is amazing that he is alive.

[gwprod12]

The miracle here is that parents, who forget their 2 year old exists long enough for him/her to be under water for 20 minutes, arent in jail.

[brainbone]

The miracle here is that parents, who forget their 2 year old exists long enough for him/her to be under water for 20 minutes, arent in jail.

 

As a parent of a 3 1/2 year old with fresh memories of her being 2, I won't go the the extreme you just did. There are cases when something like this could happen; Visiting grand parents, you think the grand parents are watch the child, they think you are, etc. You literally only need to turn your head for a second. That said, when a 2 year old is out of the parents sight for more than 10 seconds, that parent should be checking on the child -- especially if there's a body of water near by.

 

As for the doctors shrugging their shoulders and writing this off to God, what do you expect them to do? Obviously these parents extrude faith from their pours. When trying to give these parents something to grasp on to in such a hard time, do you think the doctors wont parrot this in an effort to console?

[killbot1000]

It is not god though, it is positive energy (thought, feelings, encouragement). I just wish people would realize this...

[james2mart]

The miracle here is that parents, who forget their 2 year old exists long enough for him/her to be under water for 20 minutes, arent in jail.

 

You have absolutely no basis to say this.

 

As soon as the dad (who was mowing grass) realized the kid was missing, he saw the tricycle by the pool. He jumped in immediately and told his 9 year old daughter to go find help because he feared the worst. He scoured the entire pool for the kid, but couldn't find him. The water was too murky, because it hadn't been shocked yet for the summer.

 

The miracle here is that you don't have a speeding ticket for every time you accidentally go 1 mph over the limit.

 

See how ridiculous that sounds? There is absolutely no way to do that to parents in a situation like this. The near death of their child is punishment enough, if you so choose to punish them. An honest accident is just that. An ACCIDENT.

[gwprod12]

There are accidents and there are accidents. Tripping over something and falling down the stairs is an accident. Giving your child a loaded gun and then having the child shoot himself or others is negligence. People should keep their kids safe, or they should go to jail. The victim is not the parents. The victim is the child.

 

I have no doubt that that house is a minefield of potential disaster. Pools during the winter not covered, sharp knives left out, stove left on, rat poison sitting on the kitchen counter. I'm shocked the other child has managed to survive this long. Maybe she's adopted.

 

And all the pious moaning and praying wont make those parents any less terrible.

 

It must be the unreasonable and idiotic faith that everything is according to God's plan that leaves miserable excuses for parents with no motivation to protect their kids. Well, God has certainly "tested" them.

 

And if you think my words are harsh, what better lesson than to protect yourself from the recrimination of people like me by doing the sensible thing.

 

And I'm not even remotely convinced this whole affair isnt fraudulent, especially considering the gullibility and outright dishonesty of the source.

 

As an addendum: No one in my family (at least within the past 90 years) has ever had such a disasterous "accident" even come close to befalling them. Clearly God likes us better than he likes you and yours. Or maybe we're just not ignorant, negligent hicks. Who can say for sure?

[james2mart]

I have no doubt that that house is a minefield of potential disaster. Pools during the winter not covered, sharp knives left out, stove left on, rat poison sitting on the kitchen counter. I'm shocked the other child has managed to survive this long. Maybe she's adopted.

 

...

 

And if you think my words are harsh, what better lesson than to protect yourself from the recrimination of people like me by doing the sensible thing.

 

And I'm not even remotely convinced this whole affair isnt fraudulent, especially considering the gullibility and outright dishonesty of the source.

 

As an addendum: No one in my family (at least within the past 90 years) has ever had such a disasterous "accident" even come close to befalling them. Clearly God likes us better than he likes you and yours. Or maybe we're just not ignorant, negligent hicks. Who can say for sure?

 

I'm really curious as to what kind of infection you have in your {censored}, because you're usually pretty tolerant.

 

That said, you do not know the family. You do not know Sam, his sister Rachel, his brother Jackson, or his parents Dan and Kahne. You can make no assumptions on who they are or what their house is like. They moved into the house this past fall after another church family moved out. Before this accident happened, they had already contracted someone out to build a fence for them around the pool at the end of spring.

 

You have no basis other than a geographic stereotype to call these people "ignorant, negligent hicks."

 

And to question my "gullibility" and "outright dishonesty?" What did I do that makes you call me gullible? What did I do that makes me outrightly dishonest? Please, tell me how I would have been able to have time to write all of those guestbook entries and all of those journal updates on the caringbridge site. Oh yea, some of them are signed with names and cities. I bet if you google some of them and their cities, you'll find that all the people are real.

 

And I think I have basis enough to call you an inconsiderate and cold jerk.

 

Seriously dude, grow a heart.

[gwprod12]

First, I have no tolerance for people who blithely let their children almost die.

 

Second, I dont know these people, you're right. I dont need to. The best intentions in the world mean nothing in the face of irresponsibility.

 

Third, they're ignorant because every other word on their blog is about how God is with them, or God saved their child, or how miraculous and amazing it is. If they'd done what was right and sensible, they'd have no need for God to pull their chestnuts off the fire. Only genuinely uncontrollable events happen to vigilant people.

 

As to you're being gullible or outright dishonest, that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

 

Prove me wrong, give an argument that isnt from the talking points of the religious right.

 

Jerk I may be, in fact, I revel in it. Inconsiderate and cold are both subjective. The refusal to condone pious idiots in their folly makes me inconsiderate from your perspective, but having not a care in the world for a two year old is inconsiderate from my perspective.

 

This is why the belief in God and all it's trappings is so ridiculous. The people who live this life are brain-dead fools... and apparently the only thing keeping them from blundering out into traffic is God or luck. Well, I dont need God to save me when I stick my finger in a light-socket, I'm intelligent and aware enough to avoid the bad things in life. By taking care and being observant. It's Ralph Wiggumitis, make no mistake.

[brainbone]

As soon as the dad (who was mowing grass) realized the kid was missing, he saw the tricycle by the pool. He jumped in immediately and told his 9 year old daughter to go find help because he feared the worst.

 

This sounds like a 2yr. old was left to be watched by a 9yr. old while the dad mowed the lawn, before the property they moved into was fully made safe for the 2yr. old (or the 9yr. old for that matter). What a wonderful idea...

 

No lack of Stupid on this earth. Obviously the Bible didn't teach these people common sense. And no, the child being brain damaged isn't punishment enough... that's punishment to the innocent child.

[killbot1000]

First, I have no tolerance for people who blithely let their children almost die.

 

Second, I dont know these people, you're right. I dont need to. The best intentions in the world mean nothing in the face of irresponsibility.

 

Third, they're ignorant because every other word on their blog is about how God is with them, or God saved their child, or how miraculous and amazing it is. If they'd done what was right and sensible, they'd have no need for God to pull their chestnuts off the fire. Only genuinely uncontrollable events happen to vigilant people.

 

As to you're being gullible or outright dishonest, that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

 

Prove me wrong, give an argument that isnt from the talking points of the religious right.

 

Jerk I may be, in fact, I revel in it. Inconsiderate and cold are both subjective. The refusal to condone pious idiots in their folly makes me inconsiderate from your perspective, but having not a care in the world for a two year old is inconsiderate from my perspective.

 

This is why the belief in God and all it's trappings is so ridiculous. The people who live this life are brain-dead fools... and apparently the only thing keeping them from blundering out into traffic is God or luck. Well, I dont need God to save me when I stick my finger in a light-socket, I'm intelligent and aware enough to avoid the bad things in life. By taking care and being observant. It's Ralph Wiggumitis, make no mistake.

 

we may be acting a bit tough on James2mart but...I agree with this statement 100%

[james2mart]

we may be acting a bit tough on James2mart but...I agree with this statement 100%

 

The thing that pisses me off is calling me dishonest. I want gwprod12 to tell me where he's seen me be outright dishonest.

 

Secondly, I think its ridiculous to call these parents anything but loving. Let's put this into perspective.

 

M:SS

-0:30 Dad's mowing grass. Sam's riding around in his tricycle.

-0:05 Dad looks to make sure Sam's okay. He is.

-0:00 Sam falls in.

0:30 Dad sees that Sam is gone. Dad jumps in the pool and tells his daughter to go look for help.

about 10:00-11:00: Dad doesn't find Sam in the pool. Goes to look in the house to make sure.

14:00-15:00 Sam's not in the house.

15:00-16:00 Dad jumps in pool again.

18:00-19:00 Rachel brings two doctors who were at a party next door. (The doctors were from California and only in town for 2 days... Pretty good probability there...)

19:00-20:00 Doctors quickly find Sam in pool.

 

The doctors were able to get Sam's heart rate and the EMS arrived about 2 minutes after they found him in the pool. The doctors called the EMS on their way over. This timeframe is really conservative too. this gives Sam 30 seconds to go under. It probably took less than that, because he was probably sucking in water as soon as he went in.

[killbot1000]

The thing that pisses me off is calling me dishonest. I want gwprod12 to tell me where he's seen me be outright dishonest.

 

Secondly, I think its ridiculous to call these parents anything but loving. Let's put this into perspective.

 

M:SS

-0:30 Dad's mowing grass. Sam's riding around in his tricycle.

-0:05 Dad looks to make sure Sam's okay. He is.

-0:00 Sam falls in.

0:30 Dad sees that Sam is gone. Dad jumps in the pool and tells his daughter to go look for help.

about 10:00-11:00: Dad doesn't find Sam in the pool. Goes to look in the house to make sure.

14:00-15:00 Sam's not in the house.

15:00-16:00 Dad jumps in pool again.

18:00-19:00 Rachel brings two doctors who were at a party next door. (The doctors were from California and only in town for 2 days... Pretty good probability there...)

19:00-20:00 Doctors quickly find Sam in pool.

 

The doctors were able to get Sam's heart rate and the EMS arrived about 2 minutes after they found him in the pool. The doctors called the EMS on their way over. This timeframe is really conservative too. this gives Sam 30 seconds to go under. It probably took less than that, because he was probably sucking in water as soon as he went in.

 

 

I'm not saying you're lying, all I'm saying is that its NOT verifiable. There is a lot of stuff that isn't accounted for, and thats ok, thats how the world actually works, but all I'm saying is that you cant use this as proof of gods existence.

[gwprod12]

I am not saying you're lying about this whole scenario. I'm saying I think, from what you've said in the past, that either you believe things that are wildly unlikely or founded on falsehood. That's the gullibility part. I am not discounting that you arent gullible, and are simply a liar about what you believe and disbelieve. Either way, I dont trust in the veracity of your claims about anything.

 

Your story is unverifiable at best. Most people have no motive for, or past history of, passing on misleading or outright false information. You do. In my view, anyway. If Killbott had made a comment about the same story, I would have no reason to disbelieve what he was saying, as he has no motive for making up lies to fit his agenda. And as far as I can tell, has never done so.

 

This whole scenario, which is added to on a daily basis, was originally posited as evidence of the divine. Thus, agenda.

 

Now, it could all be true. But so could the wolf coming to eat the shepherd boy.

[brainbone]

Secondly, I think its ridiculous to call these parents anything but loving. Let's put this into perspective.

 

Your error was bringing something like this in for proof of Gods existence. It's a bit exploitive of the boy, and his family. Of course everything that's related to the "proof" will get picked apart.

 

Also, I don't think anyone is saying these parents aren't "loving", but love isn't enough when raising children. There certainly was a grave error on the parent's part -- I'm sure even they would admit to this, and I'm sure the father is re-living this mistake in his head over and over again. You simply DON'T leave a 2yr. old without proper supervision while you mow the lawn. Period.

[gwprod12]

Lennie quite loved each mouse he found. That did not prevent him from killing them. Apples and Oranges.

[3nigma]

You guys go onto such stupid tangents.

 

Discuss.

[brainbone]

You guys go onto such stupid tangents.

 

I think the point being made is something like: A little more time watching the children and a little less time spent manicuring the lawn and praising "God", may have prevented this "wonderful miracle" of a child being potentially brain damaged from happening in the first place.

 

All this tit for tat and name calling is a bit of a tangent though, and doesn't really add to the conversation.

[james2mart]

Your error was bringing something like this in for proof of Gods existence. It's a bit exploitive of the boy, and his family. Of course everything that's related to the "proof" will get picked apart.

 

Also, I don't think anyone is saying these parents aren't "loving", but love isn't enough when raising children. There certainly was a grave error on the parent's part -- I'm sure even they would admit to this, and I'm sure the father is re-living this mistake in his head over and over again. You simply DON'T leave a 2yr. old without proper supervision while you mow the lawn. Period.

 

I didn't bring this in as any form of "proof" of God's existence. I brought the story up to show WHY people believe in God.

 

And if you want to call Our Lady of the Lake hospital and ask where his room or bed or whatever is, then be my guest. Just don't call and try to put an undeserved guilt trip on the parents.

 

What the heck am I supposed to do? Photocopy hospital bills?

 

And gwprod12, you STILL have not given me anything to look at about my dishonesty. Saying that I lie about my beliefs is almost contradictory.

[3nigma]

A little more time watching the children and a little less time spent manicuring the lawn and praising "God", may have prevented this "wonderful miracle" of a child being potentially brain damaged from happening in the first place.

 

All this tit for tat and name calling is a bit of a tangent though, and doesn't really add to the conversation.

The father wasn't "praising God." You just added to the name calling. You are a father yourself, how would you like someone misrepresenting you and calling you belligerent to your children?

 

Grow up.

[brainbone]

I didn't bring this in as any form of "proof" of God's existence. I brought the story up to show WHY people believe in God.

 

I guess I have trouble seeing why this would cause anyone to believe in God. Putting myself in the parents' shoes (even the most diligent parents do make mistakes, and I likely fall somewhere short of "most diligent"), "God" wouldn't even enter my mind, other than in the form of some random cursing while balling uncontrollably.