Same-sex marriage and politics. What say you?

[killbot1000]

There's always time to gain statistics, just not necessarily accurate statistics. I'm waiting to see if he'll reply with the sources for those statistics. The reason is has bearing on this argument is because Guru is talking about the benefits of Homosexual Marriage to the society. The counterargument to that was how the divorce rate is so high on Straight Marriages, that there shouldn't be as much of an impact. If the divorce rates for {censored} marriages were as high, then their counterargument would be null and void.

 

 

I honestly dont think divorce hurts a society so the statistics would be null and void to me, while I dont endorse divorce, the only reason why its high is because people are more independent and free now, just as many people were unhappy with marriage 50 years ago, but they were obligated to stay in it anyway, regardless of happiness, Im actually glad that its the way it is now.

[james2mart]

Why make wedding vows if you plan on breaking them with divorce anyways... The ACTUAL statistic of straight marriages is 50% last. The problem with society is that it doesn't take marriage seriously, which is absolutely pitiful in my opinion. Those wedding vows say "Till death do us part" and "from this day forth." Marriage is one of the few contracts today that can be too easily broken.

 

I wonder how much AIDS would dwindle down if people stopped having anal sex and people with AIDS didn't have sex anymore... All dirty needles and Africans aside...

[BMC6053]

*shakes head* I really need to avoid the bible talk - its not getting me anywhere.

 

As for marrage statistics - The state of VT had them available for civil unions and they were a bit high (cant recall how much higher) .. however that only takes in acount the people who actualy got a civil union and not folks who have been together nearly all their lives.

 

Civil Unions are wrong anyway imho - And it is because the name - If equlity cannot be achived and only partial protections are given to any group then you are telling that group that they are inferior.

 

Tell that to your God wildcat69410 - He'll probably tell you to go off and murder everyone because thats the kind of God your bible speaks of.

[Rhapsody Guru]

The Catholic Church supported the Nazis, Mussolini, The Crusades, etc. Point Proven.

 

You are VERY wrong! Pope Pius the 12th was hiding Jews from those evil, bloodsucking Nazis. He may have tried to not stir up waves, but he sure as hell was NOT Hitler's Pope. Also, the Crusades were an effort (or a series of efforts) by the Catholic Church to retake the Holy Land in Palestine for the Israelites. Ot was performed with good intentions and will for the rest of the world. THIS WAS NOT AN ACT OF IMPERIALISIM!! You obviously do not know your history well, no offense.

[james2mart]

Don't get me started on the Catholic Church. It is one of the most corrupt churches to date, and we all know it. There is a serious problem saying that you believe in the bible, but then giving the Pope as much power as he has. Many Catholics treat the Pope like he is a savior in himself. They treat him like he is in direct communication with God. This is not the case:

 

The bible says NOTHING about going through a priest to confess your sins.

The bible says NOTHING about Hail Marys.

The bible says NOTHING about Mary being perfect, either.

 

The Catholic Church leads its people to believe that getting into heaven is based on how good of a person you are. The bible speaks DIRECTLY against this:

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

Like I said... don't get me started on the Catholic Church.

[killbot1000]

You are VERY wrong! Pope Pius the 12th was hiding Jews from those evil, bloodsucking Nazis. He may have tried to not stir up waves, but he sure as hell was NOT Hitler's Pope. Also, the Crusades were an effort (or a series of efforts) by the Catholic Church to retake the Holy Land in Palestine for the Israelites. Ot was performed with good intentions and will for the rest of the world. THIS WAS NOT AN ACT OF IMPERIALISIM!! You obviously do not know your history well, no offense.

 

 

You obviously do not know youre history, The catholic church openly supported Benito Mossulini, and mossulini openly supported Hitler, so the catholic church, at least indirectly, supported hitler. The crusades was a response to king alexius of Constantinople, asking for a little help from the pope to fight back the muslims who "did bad things" to the jews in jerusalem, they actually werent as bad as alexius said, but alexius needed help right? So then the pope and alexius played telephone so to speak, and then the pope told the people of Europe that the jews were being treated even harsher than alexius had said, and the whole situation got out of proportion, the pope even went so far as to change Jesus's words, by saying "jesus was miquoted when he said not to kill, he just meant, dont kill other christians) this sent all of Europe on a bloodthirsty rampage through the middle east, in which the crusaders invaded jerusalem, started their own little kingdom, and kept it for about 90 years.

 

Im a little rusty, I havent studied the crusades for years, but I think I got it mostly right, the point is, you dont know what youre talking about, and YOU need to read up a little bit on history...

[jgrimes80]

You are VERY wrong! Pope Pius the 12th was hiding Jews from those evil, bloodsucking Nazis. He may have tried to not stir up waves, but he sure as hell was NOT Hitler's Pope. Also, the Crusades were an effort (or a series of efforts) by the Catholic Church to retake the Holy Land in Palestine for the Israelites. Ot was performed with good intentions and will for the rest of the world. THIS WAS NOT AN ACT OF IMPERIALISIM!! You obviously do not know your history well, no offense.

 

 

the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

[james2mart]

The road to hell is also very wide, because more people are going to be walking down it than the very straight and narrow path to heaven.

 

Heh, good analogy there. the road to heaven is STRAIGHT while the road to hell is TWISTED. (sexual preference pun intended). <-- Not saying all {censored} people are going to hell.

[killbot1000]

The road to hell is also very wide, because more people are going to be walking down it than the very straight and narrow path to heaven.

 

Heh, good analogy there. the road to heaven is STRAIGHT while the road to hell is TWISTED. (sexual preference pun intended). <-- Not saying all {censored} people are going to hell.

 

 

I think you are saying that {censored} people are going to hell, because the path to heaven is so strait and specific, that 99% are going to hell, atleast thats the way its made out to be, I think the whole thing quite frankly is rubbish...

[james2mart]

What do you define as a {censored} person? Someone who is attracted to the same sex or someone who is attracted to the same sex and has sexual relations with the same sex?

[wildcat69410]

*shakes head* I really need to avoid the bible talk - its not getting me anywhere.

 

Probably because you don't understand what you're talking about.

 

As for marrage statistics - The state of VT had them available for civil unions and they were a bit high (cant recall how much higher) .. however that only takes in acount the people who actualy got a civil union and not folks who have been together nearly all their lives.

 

Okay, so then let's take into account all of the statistics of unmarried straight people who have been together nearly all of their lives. If you want to ignore the statistics that are available, then so will I. The fact is their higher, 50 percent is horrible, I agree, but {censored} Marriages aren't any better, they're worse!

 

Civil Unions are wrong anyway imho - And it is because the name - If equlity cannot be achived and only partial protections are given to any group then you are telling that group that they are inferior.

 

The partial protections I have an issue with too. I don't feel as if the two different groups should have different levels of protection, I've explained that for the 50th time now. The reason they're named different isn't because one group is of higher quality than another, it is because they are different things! A marriage is between a Man and a Woman, even Bill Clinton has passed Federal Legislation defining it that way. Equality isn't the issue, Marriage isn't higher in terms of protections (if equal protections are given to Civil Unions), it's just been around longer and is a more commonly used term because Straight Marriages occur more often.

 

I'm not saying {censored} couples are unequal compared to straight couples, nor is Marriage of a higher quality than a Civil Union. They're just similar practices that offer virtually identical protections, just one is for the Union between a man and a woman, and the other is for a union between a Man and a Man or a Woman and a Woman. If that is still unequal in your mind, then a bond between a Man and a Woman has a higher standard in your mind.

 

Tell that to your God wildcat69410 - He'll probably tell you to go off and murder everyone because thats the kind of God your bible speaks of.

 

If you know so much about my God, which you apparently don't, seeing how poorly you argue Scripture, then where does God at all say "Go out and murder the disbelievers!"? He never says it, because that's not the type of God he is! The entire teachings of Jesus speak of turning the other cheek, not retaliating violently. Don't make a stupid insult like that against Christianity, especially when you have no apparent idea what you're talking about.

 

What do you define as a {censored} person? Someone who is attracted to the same sex or someone who is attracted to the same sex and has sexual relations with the same sex?

 

I would consider both to be a {censored} person. Because in the Bible, it says that even thinking about commiting a sin is the same as commiting it. Having feelings of lust over a neighbor's wife is considered to be a sin. That doesn't mean that if you think it, you might as well do it, it just means that we need to purify both our minds and our actions.

[gwprod12]

The one thing I wish Biblers and I could agree on would be that Biblical sins only apply to people who believe in them.

 

I dont believe in adultery being a sin. I dont believe in sin at all. Sin is for Christians and Jews and maybe Muslims. And if Buddhists and Hindus have sins, it's for them too. I obey laws, and I do what I think is wise and not likely to get me into any specific trouble. And I leave it at that.

 

If I'm going to be held accountable in the afterlife for disobeying a rule I dont believe in, that's my business, not yours. I dont appreciate my mode of living being called sinful, just as I'm sure you dont appreciate your mode of living being called tacky and hateful.

 

Amen.

[wildcat69410]

The one thing I wish Biblers and I could agree on would be that Biblical sins only apply to people who believe in them.

 

Logically, that's sort of wrong. Just because I don't believe in the laws set down in the United States Constitution, doesn't believe they don't apply to me. Just because I don't believe in the ruling set down in Roe V. Wade, doesn't mean that that ruling doesn't apply to me. Belief in a law or guideline doesn't mean anything, they are still applicable. Even though I can understand where you're coming from, you don't want to be governed by a God you don't believe in.

 

Believing in Sin is your choice, as is obeying it, but Sins apply to everyone whether they like it or not.

 

If I'm going to be held accountable in the afterlife for disobeying a rule I dont believe in, that's my business, not yours. I dont appreciate my mode of living being called sinful, just as I'm sure you dont appreciate your mode of living being called tacky and hateful.

 

That is your business, and I respect whatever decision you make. But I don't exactly see how my mode of living, living by the Bible, is at all hateful. Perhaps Tacky from a few perspectives, but not hateful.

[SenVa]

Ok... as I see it... same sex marriage does not affect me at all. I shouldn't effect it.

 

Do I care if someone is {censored}? No as I said above it doesn't effect me I wont affect it.

 

If more people just saw things like I do; well the world would be a much better place... Of couse everyone can say that, but there not sure if they should because i put a ";" in there... who knows if that is gramaticly correct!

[killbot1000]

Logically, that's sort of wrong. Just because I don't believe in the laws set down in the United States Constitution, doesn't believe they don't apply to me. Just because I don't believe in the ruling set down in Roe V. Wade, doesn't mean that that ruling doesn't apply to me. Belief in a law or guideline doesn't mean anything, they are still applicable. Even though I can understand where you're coming from, you don't want to be governed by a God you don't believe in.

 

Believing in Sin is your choice, as is obeying it, but Sins apply to everyone whether they like it or not.

That is your business, and I respect whatever decision you make. But I don't exactly see how my mode of living, living by the Bible, is at all hateful. Perhaps Tacky from a few perspectives, but not hateful.

 

 

Hateful because you dont accept people who are different than you

[wildcat69410]

Hateful because you dont accept people who are different than you

 

We accept people who are different than we are! We don't agree with what they do, and we try to encourage them to find God, but we don't turn them away. That's just rediculous. Our goal is to try to lead people to God, and if we turned away every person that hadn't found God, then how could we complete our goal? Christianity isn't hateful, we preach love the sinner, hate the sin.

 

How is that not being accepting of different people? How is that being hateful?

[gwprod12]

Ahem. Laws apply to everyone (in their jurisdiction), regardless of whether or not they're believed in. But it's law-enforcement (or God for sins)'s job to enforce those laws. Not you. If Judge Smith (or God) wants to give me probation for my transgressions, that again isnt your business. Why must Christians go out of their way to make my life suck? Arent they satisfied that they think I'm going to Hell?

 

We accept people who are different than we are! We don't agree with what they do, and we try to encourage them to find God, but we don't turn them away. That's just rediculous. Our goal is to try to lead people to God, and if we turned away every person that hadn't found God, then how could we complete our goal? Christianity isn't hateful, we preach love the sinner, hate the sin.

 

How is that not being accepting of different people? How is that being hateful?

 

If you'll look at the bold... I think you'll answer your own question.

 

Vociferous Christians are, for the most part, evil people who'll get their comeuppance. I just wish they'd take their message of hate elsewhere. FYI: proselytizing is offensive and hateful.

[wildcat69410]

If you'll look at the bold... I think you'll answer your own question.

 

We detest sin, what's wrong about that? Do you hate or detest senseless killing? Does that mean that you are of a hateful belief or ideaology? For a pacifist who hates and detests war, does that mean they participate in a hating ideaology? Of course not! That concept is just stupid!

 

Being loving towards groups of people, but detesting the acts they perform isn't hateful, it's loving if anything. We ignore what they do, but we love the person that they are. We accept them for who they are, but we just disagree with what they do. I don't see how that's hateful at all.

 

Vociferous Christians are, for the most part, evil people who'll get their comeuppance. I just wish they'd take their message of hate elsewhere. FYI: proselytizing is offensive and hateful.

 

Christians are such hateful people in comparison to you, who just called an entire group of people evil, and how they'd receive comeuppance. Sort of ironic isn't it. Especially seeing as 95% of the threads we both post in, you're also trying to convince me that my beliefs are wrong and I should believe what you do. FYI: You're just as hateful as the people you called evil, by your standards.

[Rhapsody Guru]

Don't get me started on the Catholic Church. It is one of the most corrupt churches to date, and we all know it. There is a serious problem saying that you believe in the bible, but then giving the Pope as much power as he has. Many Catholics treat the Pope like he is a savior in himself. They treat him like he is in direct communication with God. This is not the case:

 

The bible says NOTHING about going through a priest to confess your sins.

The bible says NOTHING about Hail Marys.

The bible says NOTHING about Mary being perfect, either.

 

The Catholic Church leads its people to believe that getting into heaven is based on how good of a person you are. The bible speaks DIRECTLY against this:

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

Like I said... don't get me started on the Catholic Church.

 

Apparently, you must be a "CAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO" type of person, which brings me to believe that you are some form of protestant. See what's beautiful about the Catholic Church is oral tradition. We know things that were passed down in this fashion that protestants totally disregard. Furthermore, why the hell do we have a gazillion different denominations of protestantism? Because EVERYONE thinks they are right about their interpretation of the Biblical texts. By the way, I would like to refute your claim on sola fide or faith alone. Do you wish to read the Bible like a 1st century Christian? OK then, flip to James Chapter 2 verse 20, the line is read as follows, "Was Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son upon the altar? You see that faith was active ALONG WITH HIS WORKS, and the scripture was fullfilled which says, 'Abraham believed in God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone. And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot justified by works when she recieved the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." There you have it. Clear as crystal.

 

 

Guru

[gwprod12]

I havent any interest in convincing you. You can believe whatever you want to believe. I'm just rebutting your arguments. Especially the ones cloaked in "science" which are actually just religion.

 

I'm not bothered by people who believe what they want to believe. It's when they try to push their beliefs on me is when I object. Your response of course will be "But {censored} marriage pushes beliefs on Christians or whoever". No one is forcing you to believe anything. No one is even trying to convince you to believe anything. No one cares if you think {censored} Marriage is right or wrong. Which is why no one has attempted to get it passed democratically (also, cause it wouldnt pass). {censored} people want their rights. Rights that dont conflict with you in any way, and also dont force you to believe any specific dogma.

 

I dont care if you believe in Creationism, Intelligent Design or Evolution or in Yeti's and Bob. You're trying to prove evolution is factually inaccurate. But all your evidence is hokum and mumbo jumbo. If you want to believe in Creationism, do so. Dont be intellectually dishonest about it though. You believe in God, I believe God doesnt exist. I dont try to cloak my belief in quasi-proof. Because I cant. It's unfactual and unscientific. It's simply the way I feel about it.

 

As for [some] Christians being hateful people. They pretend they're about love, when they're really about judgement and meanness. This isnt universally true, and as I said earlier, it's the vociferous ones that are bad. Dont try to tell me that you wouldnt find Muslims posting fliers on your car windshield saying, "Allah is the one true God, accept him," offensive.

 

EDIT: As to Catholics believing in doing good works when the bible says they arent required; Jesus makes several references to people who come to him looking for salvation, when they didnt do any of the things he prescribed.

 

IIRC: Matthew 7:21-23

 

Not everyone who says to Me,

‘ Lord, Lord ,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven,

but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘ Lord, Lord …'

And I will declare to them,

‘I never knew you;

depart from Me,

you who practice lawlessness.

 

James 2:14-17

 

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.

16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

[killbot1000]

I havent any interest in convincing you. You can believe whatever you want to believe. I'm just rebutting your arguments. Especially the ones cloaked in "science" which are actually just religion.

 

I'm not bothered by people who believe what they want to believe. It's when they try to push their beliefs on me is when I object. Your response of course will be "But {censored} marriage pushes beliefs on Christians or whoever". No one is forcing you to believe anything. No one is even trying to convince you to believe anything. No one cares if you think {censored} Marriage is right or wrong. Which is why no one has attempted to get it passed democratically (also, cause it wouldnt pass). {censored} people want their rights. Rights that dont conflict with you in any way, and also dont force you to believe any specific dogma.

 

I dont care if you believe in Creationism, Intelligent Design or Evolution or in Yeti's and Bob. You're trying to prove evolution is factually inaccurate. But all your evidence is hokum and mumbo jumbo. If you want to believe in Creationism, do so. Dont be intellectually dishonest about it though. You believe in God, I believe God doesnt exist. I dont try to cloak my belief in quasi-proof. Because I cant. It's unfactual and unscientific. It's simply the way I feel about it.

 

As for [some] Christians being hateful people. They pretend they're about love, when they're really about judgement and meanness. This isnt universally true, and as I said earlier, it's the vociferous ones that are bad. Dont try to tell me that you wouldnt find Muslims posting fliers on your car windshield saying, "Allah is the one true God, accept him," offensive.

 

Well said, I feel the same way...

[Rhapsody Guru]

Oh yeah, your claim on the Bible being the ONLY source of information for Christians, I beg to differ on that one. I have some biblical proof on this. Turn to John Chapter 21 verse 25. The verse goes as follows, "But there are also many other things which Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written? I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."

 

Think about this one for a bit. Do you REALLY know your bible?

 

 

Guru

 

As for [some] Christians being hateful people. They pretend they're about love, when they're really about judgement and meanness. This isnt universally true, and as I said earlier, it's the vociferous ones that are bad. Dont try to tell me that you wouldnt find Muslims posting fliers on your car windshield saying, "Allah is the one true God, accept him," offensive.

 

Actually, the reason people HATE the Catholic Church is because we have rules to follow. Apparently, most everybody on this forum feels that way. They would prefer to be bohemian. In the end though, whether you believe in God or not, you WILL see him at the end of your life and you will be judged accordingly. I am trying to tell you all that God is not all love, he is also a very just God.

[gwprod12]

I suspect you arent referring to me with the above statement, but I'll answer the question nonetheless (in my last post, I made some biblical comments).

 

I actually know what's in the bible fairly well, for someone who isnt a Christian in any way, shape or form.

 

EDIT: I would actually have less problem with Christians in general if they actually followed the book they're trying to force on me.

 

EDIT 2: I'm perfectly happy to find out at the end of my life that there is a god, and he's going to judge me. Just leave the judging to him (if he exists). No just God would take a look at me and say "Well, you helped people a lot, didnt hurt them very much, kept your nose pretty clean... However, you didnt believe in Jesus and you were involved with another man. Into the pit with you!" and no just God would say "Hey Adolf. You murdered 5 million people, did a ton of drugs, ruined your nation, and were just a bad guy... But you believed in Jesus, into paradise for you!"

 

According to most protestants (I dont know about Catholics), Hitler's sins dont count against him, if he believes.

[Rhapsody Guru]

According to most protestants (I dont know about Catholics), Hitler's sins dont count against him, if he believes.

 

Which is bullcrap.

 

Guru

[james2mart]

"Was Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son upon the altar? You see that faith was active ALONG WITH HIS WORKS...

 

Seriously WRONG logic here, Guru. New testament scripture references old testament scripture alot, but that doesn't mean that the two go hand in hand. See, in the Old Testament, you were to live by mosaic law and follow the rules of the church to get to heaven. After Jesus came, that was abolished. Like I referenced before, "It is by GRACE you have been SAVED through FAITH, not of YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of GOD. NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST."

 

Abraham's faith was accompanied by actions because it was required.

 

Old testament law = FAITH w/WORKS

New testament law = FAITH (works not required, but dead without)

 

See, the verses about Faith without works is dead is true.

 

But there is still faith: "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you shall be saved."

 

We have a gazillion different denominations of protestantism because down the line, people interpreted scripture differently and wanted to be separate from churches that believed (in their opinion) incorrectly. With all these different denominations, its like a friggin buffet table of God. Choose what fits you best. The way I interpret scripture fits me into the Southern Baptist denomination. Our church pastor is Jewish by blood. He converted when he was 29 after he realized that Jesus was the Messiah. He is one of the sharpest crayons in the box, and would debate the pants off of all of you...