46 replies to this topic

[Alessandro17]

TheNavigator, on 27 June 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Simply Alessandro, you're an admin. I guess you have to use quite trusted sources to prove your points, also, to accept all points of view and comments about you No offense again

As PookyMacMan rightly pointed out, I don't have any point to prove. I linked an article. We can agree with the author or not. At no point I didn't accept "points of view and comments". They shouldn't have been "about me", but about the article and the other points I raised in my first post. If anything, I criticized recent Apple hardware policy, but that was hardly discussed, except maybe by PookyMacMan.

[the_gael]

I agree - Win8 is awful. I tried it and it seemed like I was in a strange phone interface. It took some time to dig under it and find what was a usable OS. The usable OS underneath appeared to be Win7.

I have to say I only tried it for 30 minutes and decided it was garbage. When I say garbage I mean it was something I would throw away because I had no use for it. I have Win 7 which works. The layer of phone like stuff they have added on top of it makes it horrible to use. I can just imagine the reaction from some of my former corporate customers as they try and figure out the lost manhours with this.

What I don't understand is why Microsoft think this might sell.

I also agree with Alessandro regarding some of the developments with Linux - I used to run Suse then Ubuntu and latterly Kubuntu but have now deleted everything but Mac OS and Win7

[control635]

Honestly I like the concept of Windows 8 but I feel the execution could have been better. I wish there was a more seamless interaction between the start menu and the explorer. I feel like Windows 8 is going to be terrible for desktop and laptop users. I feel like they put us on the back burner for windows 8.

[GhaleonX]

Alessandro17, on 26 June 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Read the article, perhaps? This is about an article written by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes, not by any random idiot. Or search google for something like "Windows 8 is crap", 62,400,000 results. Plenty of answers.

I lol'd at this answer. Of course, I had read the article before I saw the 'post' option. Perhaps I should have said "The way this review is written doesn't really focus on what the author didn't like, but rather how much they didn't like it".

Also, out of those 62.4 million results you mention, I'll bet 62.39 million of them are a result of searching for anything containing the words "windows", "8", "is", and "crap". If you search with that whole phrase in quotes, then it should only search for something with that exact phrase (not variations), but by that wording, you're most likely to only find more reviews that are lacking the details I wanted.

Furthermore, I'm not interested in searching the web for why people might hate an unreleased OS - when I see a post that is linked to IM's front page that posts a review of it, yet doesn't really go in depth about the experience, really leaves me with the question "was this just to bash windows intentionally"?

From my own Windows 8 experience, I have very few (if any) qualms. The only major difference is the start menu being changed into the 'metro launcher', which still holds all the stuff the start menu would, and you can still type something (notepad or cmd, for example) just like in windows 7. There's better integration for getting frameworks for programs you might install (not everything, but more than my Windows 7 Ultimate desktop does). I also happen to like the look and feel of the 'metro' versions of apps like IE and WMP, but as I'm using a preview edition, there are some bugs, but thankfully the standard versions of every program is still present.

Windows Explorer is virtually identical in look and operations to Windows 7's version, so I'm not seeing how people can get lost. Maybe the big issue is just they miss the look of windows 7 (because again, the functionality of the start menu still exists in the same way for the metro launcher, it just looks different)?

PookyMacMan, on 27 June 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

That was not a direct reference to you, there is no reason for you to take offense.

You asked why many people thought that Windows 8 is bad, Alessandro told you to look it up, and you got your answer. I don't see a problem here.

Actually, *I* asked why many people thought Windows 8 was "crap" - apparently someone else felt the same way I did about the reply before I read it

[PookyMacMan]

GhaleonX, on 08 July 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

Furthermore, I'm not interested in searching the web for why people might hate an unreleased OS - when I see a post that is linked to IM's front page that posts a review of it, yet doesn't really go in depth about the experience, really leaves me with the question "was this just to bash windows intentionally"?

I don't think this ended up on the front page, even though it is in the Reader News and Rumors forum...

GhaleonX, on 08 July 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

From my own Windows 8 experience, I have very few (if any) qualms. The only major difference is the start menu being changed into the 'metro launcher', which still holds all the stuff the start menu would, and you can still type something (notepad or cmd, for example) just like in windows 7. There's better integration for getting frameworks for programs you might install (not everything, but more than my Windows 7 Ultimate desktop does). I also happen to like the look and feel of the 'metro' versions of apps like IE and WMP, but as I'm using a preview edition, there are some bugs, but thankfully the standard versions of every program is still present.

Windows Explorer is virtually identical in look and operations to Windows 7's version, so I'm not seeing how people can get lost. Maybe the big issue is just they miss the look of windows 7 (because again, the functionality of the start menu still exists in the same way for the metro launcher, it just looks different)?

One issue I'm having is figuring out where to change all the settings. For example, one of my monitors is detected as a Generic PnP Monitor because of my DVI-VGA adapter, and as a result the resolution is defaulting to 1024x768 when I want it to be 1600x1200. I still haven't figured out how to change all my settings yet, I can't find a (proper) equivalent to the Control Panel yet. And getting used to the Metro interface isn't too easy for me, and apparently for some others as well. But, you seem to be able to adjust OK, and that's awesome for you. It's just that Win8 will probably not be for everybody (I know I'll probably jump on the bandwagon much later than the initial release date).

Now, I'm not a Windows power user, so I don't know about some intricacies about settings and whatnot that I probably overlooked in my naïveté, so please understand.

GhaleonX, on 08 July 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

Actually, *I* asked why many people thought Windows 8 was "crap" - apparently someone else felt the same way I did about the reply before I read it

Whoops! My bad on that one...ROFL!

[dmd.]

personally, i think it is sad that essentially all desktop environments are in the process of being dumbed down. it's all about eye-candy (way more than usual -- just look at address book/ical in lion), big buttons, and facebook/twitter integration. why? i mean i get it on some level, and i am sure a lot of newbies (i.e. my mum, girlfriend, ...) will think it is awesome that everything looks like an iphone homescreen, but what about the power users? at least let me revert back to the "old style" if i so choose (i don't care if it's deeply buried in the registry or only accessible via some random terminal command; if it's there, i will find it).

i don't even want to touch lion, let alone mountain lion, because i feel like options are being taken away (what is this automatic versioning business? i'll use git or svn should i really want that. let me choose, dammit) from me and it all rapidly moves towards the lowest common denominator

[Alessandro17]

PookyMacMan, on 08 July 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

I don't think this ended up on the front page, even though it is in the Reader News and Rumors forum...

Exactly. Which means that I posted as a user, not as the administrator.

dmd., on 08 July 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

personally, i think it is sad that essentially all desktop environments are in the process of being dumbed down.

Exactly. And for similar reasons I complained about Apple getting rid of the 17" MBP and not really updating the Mac Pro. Apple gives the impression they couldn't care less about their professional users. Which, as many have said, is clearly a mistake. What about business and corporate users, you Microsoft and Apple?

Clearly Microsoft and Apple policies are leaving a huge gap behind which, hopefully, somebody is going to fill.

[syntax21]

After trying windows 8 I feel like my computer is supposed to be a tablet. It is horrible, and I'm mad simply because they call it "windows 8" and will push its use on home computers sold, not just tablets. Now I'm stuck having people who will bring computers to me to fix with windows 8 on it, and I say that because no network administrator in their right mind will pick 8 over 7. Now it wouldn't be so bad if they called it Windows 7 tablet or something. Then I wouldn't be so dissatisfied. I love windows, but this is pure stupidity.

[dmd.]

Alessandro17, on 08 July 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

(...) I complained about Apple getting rid of the 17" MBP and not really updating the Mac Pro. (...)

i have given up on the mac pro years ago.

the MBP i have now (17" 2010) will be my last one. cannot stand lion/mountain lion and they don't even let you fully virtualize snow leopard. not entirely happy about this, since i think apple makes the highest quality laptops out there (what is up with other brand's trackpads?),  but here's to hoping i will get another ~3-5 years of use out of this one.

in the end, i will most likely end up buying a clevo and run all productivity apps (creative suite, maya, ...) under windows 7, while my basic terminal/browsing needs will be taken care of by snow leopard in conjunction with vmware workstation.

[Alessandro17]

I don't know yet what I'll do when eventually it will be time to replace mine (early 2011), but I'll use it at least until my AppleCare expires, so there is at least a couple of years yet.

[PookyMacMan]

Alessandro17, on 09 July 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

I don't know yet what I'll do when eventually it will be time to replace mine (early 2011), but I'll use it at least until my AppleCare expires, so there is at least a couple of years yet.

Well, I think that knowing me I'll end up biting the bullet. I personally had several upgrading struggles:

10.4 to 10.5: I used the Classic environment all the time (Photoshop, some old games, and other applications), and I really didn't want to part with it. With my reliance on Classic, it was hard, but after Snow came out and then (PPC) Tiger apps were fading away (especially the G3 compatible ones), I had to bite the bullet and use Leopard (on my dad's G4 eMac since my G3 iMac couldn't take it). Eventually I lost my reliance on the Classic environment, and today I almost never run an OS 9 app, and when I do I use SheepShaver now. (I haven't even touched an OS 9 app in at least 6 months...)

10.5 to 10.6: This was the transfer from PPC to Intel (eMac to hackintosh) for me. There were just not enough PPC support anymore, forcing me to go to Intel-based. What was hard about that was some PPC apps didn't run right under Rosetta, and some other strange compatibility problems that I can't even remember anymore, but this was by far the easiest switch (once I actually got my hack working right with QE/CI and sound ).

10.6 to 10.7: Loss of PPC apps was devastating. I relied on Rosetta, and used enough PPC apps to make someone jump back with fright (OK, maybe not that bad...but close ). Eventually, I upgraded most of my PPC apps to Intel, and the ones that had no Intel version I found substitutes for. Slowly but surely, I got my computer to the point where I could upgrade to Lion. Why did I want Lion? Mainly Auto-save, Resume, and better app compatibility on the App Store. I didn't care about Launchpad and full screen apps that much, but I must admit that I use both regularly now.

Basically my point is I think that our needs will eventually shift and at that point the switch (of OSes) won't be so difficult. And, about hardware life-span (speaking of Macs here), both me and my parents use Macs from '06 (parents a 2.16 GHz 20" iMac, me a 2.0 GHz black MacBook), and they meet our needs just fine! Before that my parents used one of the original "Life-savers" iMacs from '99! Guaranteed there are many more intense tasks that I use my hack for, but the MacBook works great. Both hack and Mac run Lion now, too.

[Mr.D.]

What is the actual version of Windows 8? Windows 7 version is 6.1, and this version info dates all the way back from the NT days, since that is the kernel that windows is based on now. Windows 7 (6.1) seemed to be a "Oops, Vista was total trash, lets fix the stability and rebrand it as Windows 7" kinda move. Don't get me wrong, I skipped Vista all together and am happy with Win7. I'm just curious if this is version 6.2... or worse - 6.1.1

[starobrno1]

Win 8 works great. I have it together with Lion and Mountain Lion, all in the same computer. Best of two worlds if you ask me. Win 8 is the best Win so far, works a little like os x. Everything just worked no BS with drivers and stuff it just worked.

[Hackintosh2000]

3.14r2, on 26 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

From what I've seen in ~20min Youtube "consumer preview" version review, I may only conclude that the main "newness" of W8 was adding Metro UI bell and whistles from Windows smartphones. Not much been told (in that particular review at least) about what changes were made to OS as a computer (not smartphone) OS. In other words, is the main purpose of Windows 8 to make PC OS look more familiar to Windows smartphones users or is it to make Windows yet better OS for PC?

The purpose is to have an integrated experience between desktop, tablet, and phone.  An app written for Windows Phone 8 should be easy to compile and run on a tablet or desktop.  Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 share the same NT kernel.

Metro is sweet on a phone.  MSFT came up with something very good there.  The Metro live tiles are great too... when they work.  I've been sticking to the MSFT apps because their Metro tiles seem to update the most reliably.  It is nice just to look at the home screen and at a glance you can see weather and email/messaging notifications.  The people hub is nice.  Facebook, IM, and twitter all in one place.  You select someone and you can see all the different tweets, IMs, texts, and FB messages you've exchanged recently.

Alessandro17, on 17 June 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Why have desktop designers gone totally mad? From KDE4 (and no, the problem wasn't just that the first release wasn't ready) to Gnome 3 to Windows 8, all total, hopeless crap. Fortunately somebody forked Gnome and created Mate, now the only decent desktop between the ones mentioned above.

Aaron Seigo, Gnome and Windows devs, do you hear me? Most people want to do some real work with their computers, not play with crazy concepts.

I have my doubts about Windows 8.  I don't think it will be a Vista, but I don't have a compelling reason to get it... well the cheap upgrade price is nice.  I will probably be suckered into getting it based on price.  Not sure about ditching Win 7 though.  My machine is creaking under the weight of operating systems.  I have Win 7, OS X 10.6, 7 and 8 all installed.  At least with OS X you can install it on a small partition on an external drive so you never really have to truly cut the cord.  I'm not too thrilled at the prospect of adding another operating system to the mix.

Anyway I think most people's needs are fairly limited so they will get along fine with Win 8... after they figure out where stuff like the shutdown option is.  Man that was frustrating.

Alessandro17, on 17 June 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

What about Apple? Their next release, Mountain Lion, seems still usable, even with the iOS-fication it is undergoing.
But Apple has gone mad with their hardware. 15" MacBooks Pro with retina display can cost up to 3000 Euro!
What do you get in return? A locked-down laptop, you can't add RAM or replace the Flash storage (a miserly 256GB on the "base" model).
The 17" one, clearly the most "professional" one, has been discontinued.
And what about the Mac Pro? It hasn't been really updated, now you get slightly higher specs, same old components, for more, in Europe.

Apple, why do you hate your professional users so much?
Soon nobody will develop for you any longer. This is your missed opportunity to take users away from Windows.

Apple's issues are software and hardware related.  The iOSification is a disturbing trend.  And the elimination of "pro" hardware is very concerning.  The mac pro line is so outdated.  The retina display Macbook pro news pretty much wrote that device off for me.  There is no way I would buy a laptop that  I couldn't upgrade the ram and SSD in myself.  That apple ram is a rip off.  I priced out some ram for a friend.  I could double their RAM for $30.  Apple wanted HUNDREDS!  Yeah.  No thanks.

[PookyMacMan]

Hackintosh2000, on 29 August 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

Apple's issues are software and hardware related.  The iOSification is a disturbing trend.  And the elimination of "pro" hardware is very concerning.  The mac pro line is so outdated.  The retina display Macbook pro news pretty much wrote that device off for me.  There is no way I would buy a laptop that  I couldn't upgrade the ram and SSD in myself.  That apple ram is a rip off.  I priced out some ram for a friend.  I could double their RAM for $30.  Apple wanted HUNDREDS!  Yeah.  No thanks.

Although I agree with you, I think it is important to note that you can upgrade the SSDs in the Retina MBP That you cannot is a myth that has been going 'round the 'net. You can upgrade the SSDs with the similar "sticks" like the late model Airs; here's an example: http://eshop.macsale...Pro_Retina_2012

And for RAM, although Apple horrendously overcharges for HW upgrades, you do also have to remember that they do solder the RAM in and not just pop in a stick...although even with that it should only be maybe $100 or $120 instead of hundreds...

[amsart]

i remove this win 8 yesterday, it causing crash and freeze a lot, not very stable for work, especially design

[Alessandro17]

starobrno1, on 28 August 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Win 8 works great. I have it together with Lion and Mountain Lion, all in the same computer. Best of two worlds if you ask me. Win 8 is the best Win so far, works a little like os x. Everything just worked no BS with drivers and stuff it just worked.

amsart, on 30 August 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

i remove this win 8 yesterday, it causing crash and freeze a lot, not very stable for work, especially design

Interesting!

[Hackintosh2000]

PookyMacMan, on 29 August 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Although I agree with you, I think it is important to note that you can upgrade the SSDs in the Retina MBP That you cannot is a myth that has been going 'round the 'net. You can upgrade the SSDs with the similar "sticks" like the late model Airs; here's an example: http://eshop.macsale...Pro_Retina_2012

Good to know, but I would prefer to just be able to buy a universal off the shelf solution at a competitive price.  A custom stick sold at a premium kind of sucks.

PookyMacMan, on 29 August 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

And for RAM, although Apple horrendously overcharges for HW upgrades, you do also have to remember that they do solder the RAM in and not just pop in a stick...although even with that it should only be maybe $100 or $120 instead of hundreds...

Yes maybe on the new Retina MBPs but I was refering to the old MBPs.  All I had to do was remove some screws on the bottom of the laptop and pop in two memorry sticks.  $30 and <30 mins for a total noob.  That should not cost hundreds.

[PookyMacMan]

Hackintosh2000, on 30 August 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Yes maybe on the new Retina MBPs but I was refering to the old MBPs.  All I had to do was remove some screws on the bottom of the laptop and pop in two memorry sticks.  $30 and <30 mins for a total noob.  That should not cost hundreds.

Good heavens, if Apple charges hundreds for standard little sticks of RAM...good thing we don't have to buy groceries from them!

[STLVNUB]

Think it should be called "Windows H8", cause "H8" it I do!!!!
To quote the late Neil Armstrong (RIP)
"That's one small step for" Windows ", one giant leap" Backwards