46 replies to this topic

[Alessandro17]

http://www.zdnet.com...-disaster/20706

Quote

I’ve been following Windows 8 closely over the past few months, spending a lot of time not only with the official releases but also with a number of leaked builds, and I’ve had the chance to install the operating system on a variety of hardware platforms, both old and new. However, since my primary working platform is a desktop system, this is where I’ve had the chance to spend the most time with Microsoft’s new operating system.
I’m now ready to sum up my Windows 8 experience with a single word: awful.

Quote

An example I’ve used previously is that the Windows 8 user interface feels like something out of the mind of a child asked to draw a futuristic car. They’d give you the general car shape and then bolt on something like wings or rockets. Rather than ending up with something new and usable, you end up being presented with a Frankenstein’s monster of cobbled together parts that are clumsy and impractical.

Why have desktop designers gone totally mad? From KDE4 (and no, the problem wasn't just that the first release wasn't ready) to Gnome 3 to Windows 8, all total, hopeless crap. Fortunately somebody forked Gnome and created Mate, now the only decent desktop between the ones mentioned above.

Aaron Seigo, Gnome and Windows devs, do you hear me? Most people want to do some real work with their computers, not play with crazy concepts.

What about Apple? Their next release, Mountain Lion, seems still usable, even with the iOS-fication it is undergoing.
But Apple has gone mad with their hardware. 15" MacBooks Pro with retina display can cost up to 3000 Euro!
What do you get in return? A locked-down laptop, you can't add RAM or replace the Flash storage (a miserly 256GB on the "base" model).
The 17" one, clearly the most "professional" one, has been discontinued.
And what about the Mac Pro? It hasn't been really updated, now you get slightly higher specs, same old components, for more, in Europe.

Apple, why do you hate your professional users so much?
Soon nobody will develop for you any longer. This is your missed opportunity to take users away from Windows.

[Huckleberry Pie]

RIP Start Menu - 1994-2012.

[PookyMacMan]

Alessandro17, on 17 June 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Why have desktop designers gone totally mad? From KDE4 (and no, the problem wasn't just that the first release wasn't ready) to Gnome 3 to Windows 8, all total, hopeless crap. Fortunately somebody forked Gnome and created Mate, now the only decent desktop between the ones mentioned above.

Aaron Seigo, Gnome and Windows devs, do you hear me? Most people want to do some real work with their computers, not play with crazy concepts.

Concerning Windows 8, I haven't even used it As of 7/1/12 it just looks is unusable for my purposes. It looks like a play toy; my computers are not play toys, they are tools to accomplish tasks. Metro is a toy. I would switch to the 'classic' mode right after installation. Some classic mode...since I saw it for the first time in that article, I might not even want Win8...I sniff Vista...

Alessandro17, on 17 June 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

But Apple has gone mad with their hardware. 15" MacBooks Pro with retina display can cost up to 3000 Euro!
What do you get in return? A locked-down laptop, you can't add RAM or replace the Flash storage (a miserly 256GB on the "base" model).

Price is an ouch. However, it's not totally locked down; yes, no RAM replacement, but you can replace the flash storage with the same sticks you can throw in the MacBook Air (say from OWC). My personal feeling about the MBP retina is mixed, what I like:

1. CPU
2. Graphics
3. Display quality
4. HDMI
5. USB 3
6. RAM speed
7. Flash storage. A "measly" 256 GB, yes, but many users like myself might not need more, or are able to pay for more. I'll admit, if I were a video designer I would probably be disappointed.
8. 2 ThunderBolt ports. This is more of a "look what I got" instead of a practical tool, see more below in what I don't like. It's still nice though.

What I don't like:

1. No optical drive. This one is debatable, but I use CDs/DVDs all day (education and legacy OS/software installation mainly), so I can't really toss it (yet). That's why in my hackintosh I have four (yes, 4) DVD-RW drives.
2. Only 2 USB ports. If you're going to toss the optical drive, I would have at least 4. But that's just me.
3. No FW 800 or Ethernet. 2 Thunderbolt ports is awesome, but the technology is young and very expensive. Ethernet is used in many professional business situations, and FW is used by cameras and other devices that media users need. Interesting considering that's the new MBP's target...
4. Non-replaceable RAM

One thing I'm wondering though: between the 2 TB (ThunderBolt) ports and HDMI, does that mean that one could theoretically run three additional displays? That would be really awesome for graphic designers if that was the case...

In sum, I think it's a great product, but too far ahead in the future. According to Phil Schiller, the goal with this MacBook Pro (and previously the addition of the Air) is to dispose of legacy technologies to prepare for the future. I think that this MBP is just a little too early in it's inception, and this kind of design will be useful in maybe 5-15 years. OTOH, I thought the same thing about the initial 2008 MacBook Air (I used to think, "why would anyone buy a MacBook Air? They're really expensive and not that useful, especially with the [cheaper] white MacBook around.") And now look where it's at: it started the entire Ultrabook market, which is taking off like a rocket. But this is 3-4 years after the original release.

Alessandro17, on 17 June 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

The 17" one, clearly the most "professional" one, has been discontinued.
And what about the Mac Pro? It hasn't been really updated, now you get slightly higher specs, same old components, for more, in Europe.

This is news to me. Here in the US, the base quad-core config remained $2500 USD, and the only other default config (the 12-core) went from $4999 to $3799. So nothing went up here...but, according to 9to5 Mac, someone emailed Tim Cook, and he said that a major Mac Pro update is coming in 2013...let's see if he's right.

About the 17": this was the saddest part about the WWDC. I love the 17", and I was looking forward to buying a brand new one in 3 years when I go to college. However, I believe that if enough people put up a stink about it, it may come back. It's not like 17" notebooks are legacy products like (for example) Rosetta. There is no chance that Apple would reintroduce legacy technology (i.e. Rosetta) in a new product (referring to the previous example, Mountain Lion) when they axed it previously. But they may bring back original product designs, case in point being the iPod Shuffle, which in it's 4th generation was a screen-less, button-less paper clip one could plug headphones into. Because almost everybody hated it, in the 5th (current) generation they brought back the buttons. I think the same thing could possibly happen with the 17" MBP. At least I hope so.

Alessandro17, on 17 June 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Apple, why do you hate your professional users so much?
Soon nobody will develop for you any longer. This is your missed opportunity to take users away from Windows.

This I must disagree with. While I do agree that pro users are more on the back burner and consumer users on the front, I believe the professional forefront is changing. Like all the other risky moves Apple has done in the past, I think that they could very well predict correctly the future of professional computing, and at that point their products (I have the Retina MBP in mind) will be much more "professional" than they appear to be now. For example, video editing may take less RAM, and the need to replace it will not be there (simple speculation, don't run too far with this).

I disagree that nobody will develop for them. Worst case scenario, if Win and Gnome go the way they're going there may be no alternative to OS X. More likely, I see Apple still sustaining a substantial (and healthy) developer community. Whether this is a missed opportunity to steal away Windows users, I can't say, but it will manifest itself fully later.

All in all, I have to say that I think that probably this will be another (risky) come-and-go of rejection of Apple's new products. Case in point, 68k to PPC, PPC to Intel (both architecture compatibility concerns), Tiger to Leo (no Classic support), Snow Leo to Lion (no Rosetta support), private distribution to App Store (more strict guidelines for development), etc. Most developers (and users, l think) have adapted to most, if not all, of these transitions, and this one appears to be no different.

[Graebags]

Windows 8 - its great mate.

One naturally expects every Mac fanboy to pooh-pooh anything Microsoft does.  Similarly, one has come to expect every "IT professional" to bemoan every change to Windows since Win NT4.....  

I saw Metro described by a reviewer when Win8 DP first came out, as the UI that Lion should have had, and thought to myself "oh yeah, right"...   So I had a look at the developer preview, tried the consumer preview, and now have replaced Lion with Win8 release preview as my primary boot.  

I really like Metro.  It lets me see whats happening in my world at a single glance (keystroke), and access more detail if I want it.  Other than that, I can use my desktop all day if I want, with it working the same as my Win7 desktop.   Like Mtn Lion, Win8 works well as a faster, better optimized version of its predecessor.

Caution:   I recommend not trying it on your OSX boot hard disk.

Since originally posting this, I built a Win8 virtual machine with Fusion on Mtn Lion. In unity mode its cool... Metro on Mountain!
 Mtn_Win8_2.jpg   106K   50 downloads

[Alessandro17]

Graebags, on 26 June 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

One naturally expects every Mac fanboy to pooh-pooh anything Microsoft does.

And what makes you think that Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is a "Mac fanboy"? http://www.zdnet.com...kingsley-hughes
If you mean me, I have never been a "fanboy" of any OS. I have happily used Windows 7. I also use Debian Linux with Mate as the desktop. I use every OS which is made with an ounce of common sense.

PookyMacMan, on 26 June 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

This is news to me. Here in the US, the base quad-core config remained $2500 USD, and the only other default config (the 12-core) went from $4999 to $3799. So nothing went up here...but, according to 9to5 Mac, someone emailed Tim Cook, and he said that a major Mac Pro update is coming in 2013...let's see if he's right.

http://store.apple.c...figure/MD770T/A

It used to be 2499 Euro. 2649 Euro is a lot more than $2500 USD, considering the exchange rate.

[Graebags]

Apologies to Alessandro17, no offence intended.

[3.14r2]

From what I've seen in ~20min Youtube "consumer preview" version review, I may only conclude that the main "newness" of W8 was adding Metro UI bell and whistles from Windows smartphones. Not much been told (in that particular review at least) about what changes were made to OS as a computer (not smartphone) OS. In other words, is the main purpose of Windows 8 to make PC OS look more familiar to Windows smartphones users or is it to make Windows yet better OS for PC?

I personally like the look and idea of Windows on smartphones (although I have Android based device). I really do. It looks very minimalistic and easy to use. But what Metro UI has to do with usual PC? I can perfectly understand it being used on portable devices like smartphones/tablets, but IMO PC has a bit different purpose and therefore a bit different way of interaction between human and computer is needed. I'm not saying that existing solutions are perfect, but bringing GUI concept from a different platform isn't IMO very bright idea. If software vendors wish to bring something brand new to human/machine interaction, that should probably be something more than just ripping off a part of one system and "gluing" it somehow to another (different in many ways) system. I guess desktop gadgets could replace some (if not most) of Metro apps.

I'm not a fun boy of socializing via social networks only and 24/7 living in the net, life is going outside it - not inside it. Therefore many features of Metro UI in W8 are useless to me. I'd better prefer them (Microsoft) concentrating on how it works instead how it looks (W7 GUI is quite good and IMO can be left alone for now).

[Alessandro17]

3.14r2, on 26 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

W7 GUI is quite good and IMO can be left alone for now.

It is generally believed that most users will stay with Windows 7. Even OEMs are expected to be selling PCs with Windows 7 after 8 is released.
This might turn out to be an even worse fiasco than Vista.

[GhaleonX]

I don't see how people can complain about 8 and praise 7 - is it the change in the start menu/metro that's just offputting to you? I've been playing with W8 since the first CP was released on their website, and for the most part, it's not very different from 7; Windows explorer works the same way. I kinda like the metro versions of WMP and IE, but (fortunately) even if I didn't, the 'legacy' versions are also present, and can be pinned to the taskbar or shortcutted or whatever, just as in the past.

I really don't see the downside to W8, but am interested to know what exactly is causing people to get upset about it.

[PookyMacMan]

Alessandro17, on 26 June 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

This might turn out to be an even worse fiasco than Vista.

For different reasons, too. (Vista because of reliability, 8 because of interface). Somebody else put up a fun timeline about this:

Windows 98 = Good | Windows ME = Bad | Windows XP = Good | Windows Vista = Bad | Windows 7 = Good | Windows 8 = ??

So, if it follows the same trend, you can guess what will happen...

GhaleonX, on 26 June 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

I really don't see the downside to W8, but am interested to know what exactly is causing people to get upset about it.

As 3.14r2 stated:

3.14r2, on 26 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

I personally like the look and idea of Windows on smartphones (although I have Android based device). I really do. It looks very minimalistic and easy to use. But what Metro UI has to do with usual PC? I can perfectly understand it being used on portable devices like smartphones/tablets, but IMO PC has a bit different purpose and therefore a bit different way of interaction between human and computer is needed.

Many people think that the metro UI is only useful for touch-based devices, and not for mouse usage. I personally agree. In fact more people use mouse than touch-screen monitors with their PC, so it is probably too early for MS to make such a bold leap in interface.

For example, when Apple switched from OS 9 to OS X, there were definitely interface changes. However, they were not things that (most) OS 9 users couldn't adapt (fairly) quickly to. Metro could very likely be a different situation. OTOH, if MS is pulling an Apple here, it may turn out OK if it is executed correctly.

[Alessandro17]

GhaleonX, on 26 June 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

I really don't see the downside to W8, but am interested to know what exactly is causing people to get upset about it.

Read the article, perhaps? This is about an article written by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes, not by any random idiot. Or search google for something like "Windows 8 is crap", 62,400,000 results. Plenty of answers.

[TheNavigator]

PookyMacMan, on 26 June 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

1. CPU

2. Graphics

3. Display quality

4. HDMI

5. USB 3

6. RAM speed

7. Flash storage. A "measly" 256 GB, yes, but many users like myself might not need more, or are able to pay for more. I'll admit, if I were a video designer I would probably be disappointed.

8. 2 ThunderBolt ports. This is more of a "look what I got" instead of a practical tool, see more below in what I don't like. It's still nice though.

What I don't like:

1. No optical drive. This one is debatable, but I use CDs/DVDs all day (education and legacy OS/software installation mainly), so I can't really toss it (yet). That's why in my hackintosh I have four (yes, 4) DVD-RW drives.

2. Only 2 USB ports. If you're going to toss the optical drive, I would have

at least 4

. But that's just me.

3. No FW 800 or Ethernet. 2 Thunderbolt ports is awesome, but the technology is young and

very

expensive. Ethernet is used in many professional business situations, and FW is used by cameras and other devices that media users need. Interesting considering that's the new MBP's target...

4. Non-replaceable RAM

Wait, they really did that? That's crap. I would never buy that. I can't get rid of optical drivers, RAM replacement and ethernet. That's bad.. Really bad...

RIP Jobs, you were awesome...

[PookyMacMan]

I know. That's for the Retina display version; you can still get the regular one (I'd probably get the highest non-Retina 15" config), which isn't that much worse.

[Graebags]

Alessandro17, on 26 June 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Read the article, perhaps? This is about an article written by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes, not by any random idiot. Or search google for something like "Windows 8 is crap", 62,400,000 results. Plenty of answers.

Hey, I object to the "random idiot" reference!

So lets look at what your 62 million Google results tell us?  They certainly tell us a hell of alot of people may be "discussing" Windows 8 in some way.  Some may have said its crap, but remember the only thing worse than being talked about in this world, is not being talked about (apologies to Oscar Wilde).  

Now, I just happen to have googled "Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is crap", and got 1,740,000 results.  Now I'm not sure any one of them actually contained the phrase "Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is crap", but there you go.

And just for good a laugh I also googled "Mountain Lion is crap".  Oh my goodness, 68,800,000 results!! Plenty of answers?

Take your raw Google search results with as many grains of salt as you like.

[PookyMacMan]

Graebags, on 27 June 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

Hey, I object to the "random idiot" reference!

That was not a direct reference to you, there is no reason for you to take offense.

Graebags, on 27 June 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

So lets look at what your 62 million Google results tell us? They certainly tell us a hell of alot of people may be "discussing" Windows 8 in some way. Some may have said its crap, but remember the only thing worse than being talked about in this world, is not being talked about (apologies to Oscar Wilde).

You asked why many people thought that Windows 8 is bad, Alessandro told you to look it up, and you got your answer. I don't see a problem here.

Graebags, on 27 June 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

Now, I just happen to have googled "Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is crap", and got 1,740,000 results. Now I'm not sure any one of them actually contained the phrase "Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is crap", but there you go.

Of course, there is always a possibility that the crap part was about Win8 and there were references to that article...so I don't know how that is anything meaningful.

Graebags, on 27 June 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

And just for good a laugh I also googled "Mountain Lion is crap". Oh my goodness, 68,800,000 results!! Plenty of answers? Take your raw Google search results with as many grains of salt as you like.

For heaven's sake, of course a lot of people have different opinions. I would totally believe that Mountain Lion would be disliked by many (maybe you should google "Windows XP is crap". OTOH, think of Lion; I have seen a lot of bad things said about it, and, according to Apple, it represents 47% of their OS X user base. Not too bad. Again, that could have come up with things like "Windows 8 is crap compared to Mountain Lion!", and so on.

There is no reason for you to be behaving in this manner; Alessandro did not directly insult you. Not in the least. You are simply taking offense that he doesn't/other people don't like Windows 8; there is no reason for you to get upset about it unless you wrote Win8 yourself. Now, please act more civilly so we can discuss this matter in a humane way without bashing other people.

[TheNavigator]

PookyMacMan, on 27 June 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

That was not a direct reference to you, there is no reason for you to take offense.

You asked why many people thought that Windows 8 is bad, Alessandro told you to look it up, and you got your answer. I don't see a problem here.

Of course, there is always a possibility that the crap part was about Win8 and there were references to that article...so I don't know how that is anything meaningful.

For heaven's sake, of course a lot of people have different opinions. I would totally believe that Mountain Lion would be disliked by many (maybe you should google "Windows XP is crap". OTOH, think of Lion; I have seen a lot of bad things said about it, and, according to Apple, it represents 47% of their OS X user base. Not too bad. Again, that could have come up with things like "Windows 8 is crap compared to Mountain Lion!", and so on.

There is no reason for you to be behaving in this manner; Alessandro did not directly insult you. Not in the least. You are simply taking offense that he doesn't/other people don't like Windows 8; there is no reason for you to get upset about it unless you wrote Win8 yourself. Now, please act more civilly so we can discuss this matter in a humane way without bashing other people.

Sorry if I'm getting myself in the middle here, but I see Graebags simply replying to meaningless thing Alessandro's using to prove his points (No offense Alessandro ) which is okay. He's kinda right, referring to google results is the probably worst way ever to know how something like this goes. I've just discovered something during the last few years trying to get into the online marketing world (and failing). 1 of 1000 users posts about/rate something's good after trying it. 1 of 2 post about/rate it if it's bad

Simply Alessandro, you're an admin. I guess you have to use quite trusted sources to prove your points, also, to accept all points of view and comments about you No offense again

[PookyMacMan]

Well, Alessandro's points were not to prove Windows 8 was bad, they simply were to point out that many people thought Win8 was bad. It doesn't really matter if they're accurate, there are a lot of people who dislike Win8 (for various reasons) and that was the question Alé was answering. So, the question was about "what reasons do people have to not like Win8" rather than "is Win8 bad"; being the former question I feel Google search is an appropriate answer.

Besides, regardless if Alé's points were valid, everyone is human, and should be treated with respect. I do not believe that venting your feelings (and attacking other people as a result) is a very good thing to do to the other person, and should not really be rationalized as a good thing.

[TheNavigator]

I'm not biased Pooky. I just see that he said something wrong so I say "that' wrong". He's done lots of awesome things which I like. It's not because that I hate Alessandro or so o.o

For other point, well, I don't really think me or Graebags treat him without respect. In my opinion, I think that you guys just don't accept severe criticism. You have to be open and discuss others' views instead of just attacking them. What you've done is saying "Oh guys, you're bad. You're insulting Alessandro", instead of what a mature enough person would do, "Okay, can you please tell me what makes me bad then?".

Again, no offense. We're against points here. Not people.

[PookyMacMan]

No offense taken. I never thought anything you said was against Alessandro.

Alessandro has taken the mature path; he has not responded. Venting isn't worth responding to IMO. This statement:

TheNavigator, on 27 June 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

You have to be open and discuss others' views instead of just attacking them.

is exactly what Graebags was not communicating in the post. From the way it is written, it is an attack, and I think his rebuttal could have been handled in a much more mature way.

By now this point is stressed enough; let's get to talking about Windows 8. We don't want petty arguments about who's right and who's wrong.

[TheNavigator]

PookyMacMan, on 27 June 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

No offense taken. I never thought anything you said was against Alessandro.

Alessandro has taken the mature path; he has not responded. Venting isn't worth responding to IMO. This statement:
is exactly what Graebags was not communicating in the post. From the way it is written, it is an attack, and I think his rebuttal could have been handled in a much more mature way.

By now this point is stressed enough; let's get to talking about Windows 8. We don't want petty arguments about who's right and who's wrong.

Yes I know, but I guess he should have asked why someone thinks his points were bad

IMO, Alessandro's awesome. He just need to state why a single point is how he think it is by "1- It's ... 2 - It's.... 3 - It's..." which are actual facts. #12 is a perfect example

And that's fine. I'll end it.