Macs seem to cost more than PCs - What's the value?

[vbetts]

If a mac pro is what you wanted, and it is what you bought... what is there to fault with that? The only point was that to me (important bit there) a real mac doesn't hold up well in a "value" based comparison with a rig I can build. Obviously we place different weights on different features. That said there are some facts that can't be argued, mainly that for the cost of a mac pro, one can build a "hack pro" that is as powerful and has more trimmings.

 

Like I said, you either buy into the mac, or you don't. Neither answer is wrong there, just don't go thinking you've got something that nothing else can compare to.

 

Maybe a single cpu Mac pro solution, but that's still pushing it. On LGA775, a single cpu solution that's quad core, or even dual core with high clocks could outperform it, but on the same socket, even more when you can get dual quad core solutions with the Macpro, which on an LGA775 you can't.

And what do you mean they don't hold up in value? Have you seen the prices of dual g5s, even single g5 macs? And the higher g4s? Macs hold their value very well, maybe not these intel Macs as much because they're on a more affordable and compatible solution.

This is what I think it all boils down to, do what you want to do. Build a hack, or buy a mac.

[sneezymarble]

None of the desktops do, but the Macpro isn't a desktop. It's a workstation, so you need to compare workstation to workstation.

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/con...dwjap&s=bsd

 

But judging by the price of a single cpu precision, then what the price is after you add a second cpu, the Mac pro is a steal with its prices.

 

For sombody that wants a workstation but doesn't have the know how or desire to build their own, the Mac Pro is a good deal. Similarly configured workstations from Dell or HP cost just as much or more. However, outside of large company situations, the vast majority of users looking for that kind of power, in my experience, are perfectly comfortable building their own machines and troubleshooting them. In that case workstations from Apple, HP, Dell or any of the other major system builders are extremely overpriced.

[capt_cope]

Maybe a single cpu Mac pro solution, but that's still pushing it. On LGA775, a single cpu solution that's quad core, or even dual core with high clocks could outperform it, but on the same socket, even more when you can get dual quad core solutions with the Macpro, which on an LGA775 you can't.

And what do you mean they don't hold up in value? Have you seen the prices of dual g5s, even single g5 macs? And the higher g4s? Macs hold their value very well, maybe not these intel Macs as much because they're on a more affordable and compatible solution.

This is what I think it all boils down to, do what you want to do. Build a hack, or buy a mac.

I'm comparing my single cpu to both of the dual cpu mac pros in our studio. In real world usage It's faster than the 2X dual core xenon, and as fast as the 2x quad core xenon. In geek bench it destroys the dual core mac pro, but is beat out by a fair margin by the quad core mac pro. But that's geek bench. I've seen no difference in actual performance, which may be due to the fact that none of the programs are really tough enough to stress even 4 cores, let alone 8. Now I'm sure there is some program out there that will utilize 8 cores to the fullest, but I've yet to run into it.

 

Also, I don't consider resale a "value" and I wouldn't buy a G5 for more than $100. The case is cool, the innards are weak and apparently prone to fail if you've got one of the water cooled systems. A G4 is so laughably slow at everything from email to web browsing it hurts to use the one we've got up in the front office (a quick silver.) I use my computers until they die. I've still got a socket A machine running a little file server in my house. So being able to recoup some of the rediculous price isn't an isue for me.

[Nano2k]

Benzslrpee, the problem is not that one cannot buy a Mac if he has the money to do so, the issue is that because they spent a lot of dough they think it is superior to other computers. What the hell is a workstation supposed to mean anyway? a computer is a computer and that's it, it's an assembly of parts that run computer programs more or less fast. Servers can be different story because they are designed for reliability.

 

And ok maybe many do not want to choose parts and build them together, but after you have done it a few times it's not any more complicated than fixing a proper dinner or giving your car a wash. So if you have the money and you are too lazy to be interested in what is in your computer then pay more for the same, that's not a problem.

 

And I'm sure that the components in a Mac are just as {censored} as any OEM stuff out there. Enthusiasts buy motherboards, ram, power supplies, etc that are totally different than what you get in a pre-assembled computer. That's why you can overclock the {censored} out of them and get maximum performance per dollar while maintaining top notch stability.

Pre-assembled computers are built with cost saving in mind so that Apple and whatnot can make a lot of $$$.

[sneezymarble]

Benzslrpee, the problem is not that one cannot buy a Mac if he has the money to do so, the issue is that because they spent a lot of dough they think it is superior to other computers. What the hell is a workstation supposed to mean anyway? a computer is a computer and that's it, it's an assembly of parts that run computer programs more or less fast. Servers can be different story because they are designed for reliability.

 

And ok maybe many do not want to choose parts and build them together, but after you have done it a few times it's not any more complicated than fixing a proper dinner or giving your car a wash. So if you have the money and you are too lazy to be interested in what is in your computer then pay more for the same, that's not a problem.

 

And I'm sure that the components in a Mac are just as {censored} as any OEM stuff out there. Enthusiasts buy motherboards, ram, power supplies, etc that are totally different than what you get in a pre-assembled computer. That's why you can overclock the {censored} out of them and get maximum performance per dollar while maintaining top notch stability.

Pre-assembled computers are built with cost saving in mind so that Apple and whatnot can make a lot of $$$.

 

Workstations are usually built with server hardware like server class motherboards and FB-DIMM ram. Like servers, workstations are designed for performance and maximum reliability. Apple uses reliable non-"{censored}" server components in their Mac Pros. Still, you can buy those same components, for example motherboards based on the same chipset, from online vendors and, as has already been stated several times, a machine built by yourself using similar server components will cost less than getting the same machine from Apple.

[vbetts]

For sombody that wants a workstation but doesn't have the know how or desire to build their own, the Mac Pro is a good deal. Similarly configured workstations from Dell or HP cost just as much or more. However, outside of large company situations, the vast majority of users looking for that kind of power, in my experience, are perfectly comfortable building their own machines and troubleshooting them. In that case workstations from Apple, HP, Dell or any of the other major system builders are extremely overpriced.

 

Any prebuilt computer will be overpriced compared to building your own rig. But as for the Mac PRO, when you see the parts of the Mac pro, then price them individually, the Mac pro is a great price. You also have to factor in that Apple and other companies like HP or Dell make sure this computer works, no problems with the hardware, and also have you under support, where with a prebuilt computer, you get support for individual parts, and support that's not even guaranteed.

[Dewdman42]

Macs are definitely a lot more. Might be worth it. I mean, if I add up all the time I've spent tweaking this OSX86 system to get it to work right. Granted, part of that effort was me just learning about the whole hackintosh way of doing things, and I'm still getting there. but still, add up those hours and I could easily justify a few thousand bucks more to buy a real mac. The resale value on Macs is remarkably good compared to PC's for a number of reasons. Support on Macs is only good if you pay more for the Apple support contract, and you can get those kinds of things for PC's too.

 

Bottom line, if you want to run OSX instead of winblows, then you can either hack around with hackintosh and save money or you can pay more for a mac. its that simple. Mac's are more expensive and many people are willing to pay for it.

 

I just wish Apple would create a mid tier machine, like a core duo quad type machine, that fully loaded priced out around $2k. Right now they have either iMacs which are underpowered for many of us, or they have the Xeon based MacPro which can get quite expensive when loaded up with memory, HD's, etc. And they aren't overclockable. I built my quad core hackintosh with parts from newegg for $1500, and that included 2 HD's, 4GB of overclockable ram, aftermarket CPU cooler, aftermarket acoustic treatment for the case, etc.. And...it easily overclocked to 3.2ghz. Try buying a 3.2ghz quad core mac and see how much it costs...probably closer to $3000 with those specs....as a Xeon single cpu model. That is double the price. Ouch.

 

Myself, I would be willing to pay maybe $500 extra for a real mac compared to a similar powered PC. Until such time that I can, I still am sitting on the fence about whether I want to be an OSX user or Winblows user....and though hackintosh has been an interesting experience, its not a good long term solution for me either as my main interest in computers is not hacking..its getting my work down with minimal fuss. To me that means if I want to use OSX I should just buy a real mac, but god damn they are expensive.

[zeamp]

I just wish Apple would create a mid tier machine, like a core duo quad type machine, that fully loaded priced out around $2k.

 

Aren't there some good upgrade options for the new iMacs to fit that "mid tier" range you're looking for?

[Dewdman42]

No.

 

imacs are dual core only, no PCI slots, HD bays, etc.. Not even close to enough. Apple has a huge gaping hole in this performance area. They go from underpowered iMacs and jump all the way up to MacPro supercomputers....with a correspondingly huge price jump also. There is a huge gap there and many power users need hardware in this gap. Obviously, some extreme power users may be able to justify 4 grand for a loaded up macPro, but there is a huge market of people that don't want or need the latest top of the line cutting edge hardware, but they still need more power than an iMac. that is an area where PC's have many options and Apple has none.

[vbetts]

Apple does need a real desktop, not a computer that uses laptop hardware that is marketed as a desktop, not a workstation, but an actual desktop. One that like Dewdman42 said, will top out at $2k, and can upgrade.

Try buying a 3.2ghz quad core mac and see how much it costs...probably closer to $3000 with those specs....as a Xeon single cpu model. That is double the price. Ouch.

They don't offer a single 3.2 ghz quad core. They offer a 2.8, which is good enough. Around $2100-$2200 for a single cpu configuration. But what makes the price of the Macpro as it is, is the socket configuration. The cpus for the Macpro aren't cheap. LGA 771, Xeons aren't really cheap. As well as the chipset, and the build for it. Though for the price considering the socket, ram, but not the video card, it's a decent price.

[Deleted]

Apple does need a real desktop, not a computer that uses laptop hardware that is marketed as a desktop, not a workstation, but an actual desktop.

 

I couldn't agree more. If they had a real desktop Apple would fill a hole that has people turning toward PC, and finally ask the question "Why aren't you running a Mac?" of everyone.

[Dewdman42]

Yes, that is my whole point, you have to buy a high end architecture in order to get a quad core. By the way, $2200 for a single CPU quad core Mac is NOT fully configured. It will be more by the time you load it up with several HD's a bunch of RAM, etc.. And there is a noticeable improvement in performance between 2.8 and 3.2ghz. Just saying, let's compare apples to apples here. 2.8 is not the same as 3.2. Some guys overclock even higher than 3.2 if they want to. But 3.2 is just very easy to do with the Q6600 and runs pretty cool and quiet.

 

I know the dual quads from Apple can get higher CPU's, I didn't know the singles could only go to 2.8. But when you get a faster CPU on the dual cpu's, they are HELLA expensive.

[sneezymarble]

Any prebuilt computer will be overpriced compared to building your own rig. But as for the Mac PRO, when you see the parts of the Mac pro, then price them individually, the Mac pro is a great price. You also have to factor in that Apple and other companies like HP or Dell make sure this computer works, no problems with the hardware, and also have you under support, where with a prebuilt computer, you get support for individual parts, and support that's not even guaranteed.

 

2.8GHz x2, Skulltrail, 2GB FB-DIMM 800, 320GB HD, Wireless KB/M, Case/PSU, Retail OSX is $2,459.98. The same system from Apple will cost $2,999.00. You're saving $539.02. That savings may or may not be worth it depending on who you are. I think just about everyone agrees with that. The savings is up to $200 more (around $750) if you don't use the Skulltrail board. The advantage of Skulltrail is that you could easily take a 2.8GHz chip to 3.2GHz. At those clocks the savings gap increases significantly. The 8 core 3.2GHz system from Apple costs $4,599.00, while the Skulltrail system remains $2,459.98. The savings is now $2139.02. If you don't go with Skulltrail and use a traditional 5400 based server board your savings scales evenly at about $750. So, yes, depending on who you are and what your technical savvy is, the Mac Pro may be a great price and the extra $750 you're paying is probably worth every penny. Clearly though, for those individuals with the know how, building your own rig saves a significant amount of money and that's especially true if you use Skulltrail.

[Andy Machead]

im OS X all the way, i enjoy hackintosh and am building a power house as we speak but when it comes to laptops, its apple or the highway. Except for the MacBook, every other apple laptop is sturdy and reliable, will take a hit or two and look nice doing it. Battery life too.

 

iBook G3- Its 7 years old, still have my baby. Has a massive hard drive, dvd burner, wireless net, bluetooth, etc. 7 Years, runs Tiger. thats a pretty darn good track record.

 

Powerbook G4- Its 4 years old now, 12 inch... nothing can replace that!

 

I want a macbook air for college though. Its a light, small, durable, and damnnnnn fine! little laptop. You buy pro apple laptops, everything else will look like candy. Especially since the MB Pro's have expresscard slots!