Iraq

[McSkywalker]

There's no point in fighting a war unless you have 1) a clear enemy

Good point.

 

2) a clear goal

1- There's oil.

2- When there's war, the US economy temporarily gets better because of money transactions.

3- US Army can show off their weapons and technology.

[gwprod12]

The US can also show how pitiful it is at keeping Iraq stable, thus weakening ourselves in the eyes of our enemies. Defeat is death to fear. Up until W, we had the first gulf war as our laurels, and we looked pretty snazzy. Now we're getting beat up by some teenagers with rocks and molotov coctails, and while it is true that we have not suffered any serious military defeats, we still look pretty pathetic to the eye of a rival. Like China.

 

This we've gained from the war in iraq...

Nothing, as far as I can see

 

Things we've lost from the war in iraq...

Our moral credibility.

The superiority of our military.

Lots and lots of money.

A somewhat stable middle-east.

 

No one with two wits to rub together can say that the middle-east is more stable now than it was 4 years ago. Not to mention the fact that our country was safer before the Iraq war. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If George W Bush isnt bought and paid for by Osama Bin Laden, he sure acts like he is.

 

And, every day, the Taliban make more progress toward reconquering Afghanistan.

[McSkywalker]

The US can also show how pitiful it is at keeping Iraq stable, thus weakening ourselves in the eyes of our enemies.

This is a result, not a possible goal.

 

This we've gained from the war in iraq...

Nothing, as far as I can see

If what you call "we" is the US society in general, so you're perfectly right on that. But weren't there any possible benefitor groups like the weapon industry and huge contractor companies?

 

Things we've lost from the war in iraq...

Our moral credibility.

The superiority of our military.

Lots and lots of money.

A somewhat stable middle-east.

Also, human lives. Your army is made up of by real US citizens who will never benefit from the situation in Iraq. I also have to add that the US citizens gain hatred because of the foreign policy of their government. It shouldn't have turned out like that.

 

No one with two wits to rub together can say that the middle-east is more stable now than it was 4 years ago.

Agreed.

 

And, every day, the Taliban make more progress toward reconquering Afghanistan.

When there's lack of education, you'll only find dakness there. It's sad for the Afghan people for being almost a toy between the former USSR and US in the close history. They didn't find the chance to educate their generations between the ongoing struggles. The result is, Taliban. If it wouldn't be Taliban, then just some other darkness would take place. Sadly there are plenty of examples for that in Africa.

[gwprod12]

I didnt include soldiers being killed as a negative because it's not a straight up or down. Many people quite sincerely believe that soldiers dying (ostensibly) for their country is a positive.

 

Also, the statement about showing how pitiful would not be a goal I would support. It could be argued that it is one of Osama Bin Laden/Al Qaeda's goals. To force us to weaken ourselves.

[Mac and Cheese]

We should have a prime directive like on StarTrek... stay the hell out of the affairs of other nations. Don't try to westernize the middle east. Don't invade under false pretenses. Remember what goes around... comes around. Our way of life is not better than thiers... it's just different. Sadam Husien, Osama Bin Laden and Manuel Noriega all have four things in common.

1) At one time they were used by US goverment agencies (overtly or covertly) for "our" benefit.

2.) They were trained @ the School of Americas (wiki search it) by our Department of Defense

3.) They were given aid in the form of money(Noriega), or weapons technology/logistic support (Sadam and Osama).

4.) When we no longer needed them or liked thier politics they got screwed. (Not that they didn't deserve it... let's be honest)

Osama and Afghanistan were left high and dry after the cold war. There has yet to be a real physical link to tie him to 911. I can get anyone who is being tried for murder to link anyone to anything. And why wouldn't Al-Quada take credit. (FYI I was raised in NYC and used to work for Port Authority. I know one of the building engineers. He says the building imploded down, and the public version of what happened is inconsistant with what is physically sound). There is alot that we the public just don't know about what happened before and after the planes crashed. Someone had to be blamed.

Noriega was prosecuted for trafficing the drugs that funded the CIA; then headed by George Bush... wait a minute isn't that accessory or conspiracy under federal law.

Sadam was framed for weapons of mass destuction that he really didn't have, based on evidence that we really didn't have. He was tried and convicted in some type of circus court with no established rules of evidence for a crime that had nothing to do with why we invaded Iraq. I guess we couldn't just let him go after we didn't find our precious WMD. Do you think the Bush administration give a $h&^t about the Kurds until now? (isn't that "Bait and Switch") If he was American he would have one hell of a lawsuit.

 

These guys were bad... and we pre-emptively took them all down... the Bush administrations (both) are some real gangsters. They make "Bloods and Crips" look like muppet babies. Oh and remember... whats on CNN is what the administration wants us to see. There's usually more to things if you do research.

[gwprod12]

As to Saddam's trial, I absolutely agree. I dont understand how he could possibly, legitimately and fairly be found guilty of committing either 1) retroactively applied crimes that didnt exist when he was president, or 2) crimes against the government he himself was head of. Several legal experts had a bit to say about this whole notion of trying him in Iraq vs the Hague (where he would have been guilty of war crimes/crimes against humanity), yet he was convicted in a supposedly fair trial for committing crimes that werent crimes and breaking laws that didnt exist.

[Proteo]

My respects Mac and Cheese. There's hope.

[oregano]

Osama and Afghanistan were left high and dry after the cold war. There has yet to be a real physical link to tie him to 911.

 

I have a Bush quote taped to my wall:

"You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the War on Terror"

I agree, it has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, although there are Al-Queda terrorists in Iraq Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, recently killed, was the former leader.

 

And why wouldn't Al-Quada take credit. (FYI I was raised in NYC and used to work for Port Authority. I know one of the building engineers. He says the building imploded down, and the public version of what happened is inconsistant with what is physically sound). There is alot that we the public just don't know about what happened before and after the planes crashed. Someone had to be blamed.

 

This thread isnt about the conspiracies behind 911, its about the validity of the Iraq War.

[Mac and Cheese]

There is not much that gets by the leaders of our beloved inteligence and defense communites, unless they want it to. The Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns were concieved before the events of 9/11 and the UN inspectors. This stuff does not happen haphazardly. Sometimes things are overlooked, ignored, or allowed to escalate for a desired effect at a desired point in time. Right now for instance... in Iraq there should be at least $80 billion dollars of oil revenue (for the year according to the Washington Post). The United Nations and the World bank estimates the cost for essential reconstruction of Iraq to be $58 Billion. The Department of State said in it's Iraq country report that the US has already appropriated $21 billion, with other substantial amounts coming from international development institutions and other pledges. Alot of money floating around... sounds good right? The actual amount used for improving the quality of life for Iraqis... $0 (excluding nesseccities). The amount sucked up by Haliburton and other "Defense" Contracters... I wish I could find a definitive answer, but it's in the billions for Haliburton alone. 53 senators voted against congressional investigations of contractor fraud in Iraq.