Building my "rig"

[ChocolateJeff]

I hope this is the right forum, so here I go..

 

Still in my early planning stages, I plan to build a computer for my family and me and I want it to be a beast that can handle anything from games to complex engineering softwares and video editing softwares to audio processing and mixing softwares. (perhaps running OS X as well ?)

 

I've looked into some prices and component performances benchmarks and have to say that I'm pretty impressed with AMD's Phenom II X4 940. However, going the AMD route might prove difficult to convert into a hackintosh. I'm planning to run Windows 7 64-bit as my main operating system with 6G of RAM to start with.

 

But, I'm still undecided about whether to stick with 32-bit or 64-bit, because I am sure I need all that memory, I only need it perhaps to do some FEA simulation work (related to my work as an engineer), handle SUPER HUGE Excel files, Multitask with many tabs open (many.. tabs) and also a little gaming. (like Fallout 3? or whatever upcoming new games)

 

Give me your thoughts about 32-bit or 64-bit OS. My main concern is for the program compabilities. I know some programs already have 64-bit versions but most programs are still written for 32-bit. If so, how stable will 32-bit programs run in a 64-bit OS? This also applies to whether I should go to Snow Leo or just plain Leo. If Snow Leopard is 100% 64-bit, then I will be guessing some apps will not be able to run smoothly in Snow Leopard as it did in Leopard unless it was re-written to take advantage of the 64-bit architecture.

 

I have decided also to go with Sapphire Radeon 4870 1GB Vid Card (HDCP) with 790GX chipset on the motherboard so I get additional intergrated graphics (Radeon HD 3300?) to run my games better (graphically). However, for the motherboard, I want it to support DDR2 as I don't think it is worth to go to DDR3 just yet. This is still a very hard decision for me on choosing the motherboard. I want to go with Gigabyte and not Asus this time. However, the model I'm looking at, Gigabyte MA790GP-UD4H doesn't seem to support 64-bit Operating systems! or maybe it does, I'm still quite unsure as I'm still reading and investigating this motherboard. Give me some advise.

 

Along with the strong Video card and intergrated Video I want to take this as oppurtunity to go Blu-Ray. So I also looked into getting the Sony Blu-Ray reader (I think there is only one for now), unfortunately, this drive does not write on Blu-Ray, it just reads it, but at least it has the standard DVD/CD + RW read&write. So I don't know if this might be a good way to go with my drive. I don't think I will be burning any Blu-Rays just yet.

 

With Sweet support for Blu-ray, I need to get a new monitor too. I'm looking to get a 24" ASUS VH242H (I think a much better deal than Apple's monitors although I really want that intergrated webcam/mic)

 

To finish off, I will also get a Gigabyte wireless card, and a Bluetooth "dongle" that supports BT 2.0/2.1, an SD card reader, a mid-tower case and a 750W Power Supply (I hope thats enough)

 

Give me your thoughts, do you think it will be hackintoshable? hahaha.

 

I've hackintized my dad's dell inspiron before and I know the gripes associated with building a successful hackintosh. But because of that hackintosh, I have shelled out money for a white macbook 2 years ago. So I'm familliar with OS X and I do know some applications I would LOVE to run on OS X with this machine if OSX can run on my beast. I will be very very happy if it is at all possible.

[TomCom]

750W is not enough, it's overkill. 500W is enough, and 600W is future-proof.

 

I can't give you any advice about 64-bit or not, but DDR3 is worth the extra-money. Price have dropped a lot in the past few months, and for a moderate premium you can get twice the bandwidth with 1333MHz CL7 or 1600 CL8 DDR3.

 

A Core i7 rig seems the best choice if you need strong performances.

[wheee]

Found this post while on google and registered for the reply.

 

1. I don't know much about OS X, so you're on your own there buddy.

 

2. Well, let's see. If you want beastly abilities like that on your computer, you're looking for at least a ATI Radeon 4870 1gb graphics card. That should handle your concerns. There are workstation cards that are optimized for engineering software, etc, and will run those far better than regular cards, but they're also much more expensive and play games dirt poor compared to regular cards; hence the 4870. ATI does have the 4890 out, unless you want the best ATI card you can have, the 4870 is fine (get another one to crossfire or the 4870X2 if you have extra money). nVidia has better cards at the very high end but they're overpriced for their performance. Even though they do run faster.

 

3. Consider a sound card if you want to do audio work such as recording, etc. for those purposes. I recommend the Asus Xonar D1 (PCI) as a good card for only about $90. Or the Asus Xonar DX if you want to have the PCI Express version of it instead. Same card really. I'll let you decide on what peripherals (headphones, speakers, mics, etc.) you might want yourself.

 

4. That 940 is good. However, if you have the extra money, go for the Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition. If you're on more of a budget, get the Phenom II X3 720 Black Edition. Just giving alternatives here.

 

5. If you don't want to go AMD, and you still want a super system, get the Core i7 920 from Intel. However, to build an i7 system you're looking at about $1200+ for a good one. At least $1000.

 

6. 6gb ram? If you're going AMD, you'll be going Dual Channel since basically every motherboard except for the X58 motherboards (X58 = Core i7) uses Dual Channel. Only the i7 uses Triple Channel. 6gb dual channel means 2 x 2gb and 2 x 1gb sticks of RAM. It might be less cost effective if you're planning on upgrading later; may as well get either 4gb or 8gb, unless you really want that extra 2gb. (A core i7 will be fine with 6, and will actually need it as it's triple channel so you'll be going 3 x 2gb).

 

7. 64-bit. Easy answer. I wouldn't consider 32-bit anymore. 32-bit systems limit the RAM to 3.4gb so if you decided to get 6gb of RAM you essentially are not using 2.6gb of that memory and it's just sitting there. To get more memory used, you must use a 64 bit operating system. It's the future. =) Also, 64 bit systems are compatible with programs written for 32 bit systems generally, as it'll just run it in 32 bit mode. Occasionally you'll have conflicts, but at this point that's rare; the technology is vastly improved from it's early stages. You may have problems running DOS games, though. =P

 

8. You cannot crossfire integrated graphics (that HD3300) with discrete graphics (the 4870). It'll only allow you to use one or the other. Usually you have to shut integrated off to use discrete; but the 4870 by itself is very nice. If you didn't list gaming, I'd actually tell you you could probably just use integrated graphics. I believe an overclocked 3300 can run Crysis on all lowest settings at 30fps?

 

9. DDR3. There's no point in not switching because DDR3 is the future standard and you'll be obsoleting yourself through incompatibility at this point. DDR3 is common enough there's no reason not to use it unless you want to save a little bit of money.

 

10. Sadly, I don't know much about monitors. D=

 

11. Agreed on power. 500w is definitely enough if you only want a single card, no matter how buff your card is. If you want to crossfire, 600 or 650w is enough. Just make sure you get a GOOD psu. Don't be cheap on this; if it dies in glorious flame or is unstable it can kill your system. D= For 500w, I recommend Antec EarthWatts 500w as a good low-cost one. For 650w, I'd get the Corsair 650TX. =)

 

I believe I covered everything except OS X and your monitor. Oh, and I just noticed that the site name is Insanelymac... /insert obligatory statement about Windows being better than OSX. (hides)

 

Have a great time making your build. If you have any more questions after you decide on a few things, feel free to ask and I'll reply again. =D

 

EDIT: You're in Richmond. =o I was born in Vancouver, although I don't live there anymore. =D

[ChocolateJeff]

Hey Wheeeeeee,

 

YES, I do live in Richmond, and its great to get a reply from someone around the neighbourhood!!

 

so. Let's get down and dirty,

 

1. OS X, is actually, not bad. I actually have a Macbook for 2 years now, running Leopard currently but unsure whether to upgrade to Snow leopard as of now. Before that, I also hackintoshed my dad's Dell when I was younger, and gave some keynote presentations with it. ( Some people just thought I was REALLY GOOD with powerpoint. HAHA! ) It has its ups, and downs.. as like every other operating system *cough cough.. BSOD X.X* but I think I want Windows 7 as my main OS on that rig. (believe it or not, my parents think its easier to use Windows then OS X! ) However, having the Mac OS on that hardware could be pretty sweet too.

 

2. ATI Radeon 4870 1G is the model I am looking at indeed. I don't think I need the latest and newest just yet. This baby should do just fine and I've also made sure that all my components (motherboard) is also Crossfire ready. So in the rare case I feel I need a little more video processing power, *pop* two 4870s will kick the snot out of anything I need. Also, you made a good point about specialized card. I like you probably, also did research on some cards and realized their weak gaming capabilities. That is why I decided to go with more mainstream cards. Nvidia although really good, like you said.. just ain't worth the sweat I worked for.

 

3. As for audio work, I am not sure and am fairly new to the scene of recording. As of now, I'm just working with garageband (on my macbook) to do recordings of my piano songs + some occasional singing and harmonizing. I use the Blue Snowball professional microphone with USB as the macbook doesn't have all the necessary ports for a good mic. I'm planning to use the same mic for my recordings with this computer, should I feel the need. But I think most of my recording will be done on my macbook. I would perhaps just use this computer to do some audio processing work, such as mixing.. balancing.. I'm not sure yet.

 

For this nature of work I don't know if I need a specialized sound card right for now. My motherboard also has some pretty impressive sound processing features supporting up to 7.1 surround sound. (sweeet) I don't know, perhaps, tell me what the uses of a dedicated soundcard is for, because I'm still unsure at this point. Nevertheless, all my balancing and processing work. I will work with an on ear Headphone. I think this is the best. But, with support for 7.1 I could also just get some 7.1 system and test out how my songs will sound "Surround Style"!

 

4. 940.. 955... meh.. I don't know... almost the same performance... I am planning to OC the 940 to 3.2 anyways.. but thank you for that.. I didn't even know the 955 existed.

 

5. Intel i7 system would be freaking sweet but the price is just not... as sweet.. I still can't bring myself to paying so much more for intel.. AMD/ATI = good nuff for me!

 

6. Yea you know what.. I think you're right about the memory hahah i didn't really think about it throughly. I just thought.. hmm.. I can put 6G.. lalala.. but now that you pointed out... I think I will go 4 GB to start with.... or maybe they'll make 3 GB sticks soon ..

 

7. 64-bit. Yes, I was strongly leaning towards a 64 bit system.. until a friend of mine.. (who was also very good with building computers) gave me an evil smirk.... .. he told me... to stay AWAY from 64-bit.. Reason being drivers + programs. Because I was also planning to put a few games on that machine, he says having a 64-bit system could render my 32-bit written games UNSTABLE.. and so having a 32-bit could prove to be better for gaming... not only that.. the Office suite is also written for 32-bit systems and will not take advantage of the 64-bit architecture. Yada yada yada.. he went on and on.. but I'm not sure.. I mean 64-bit seems to become more mainstream now.. I think I'll stick to being ready for the future.. I will be going the 64-bit way.

 

8. Speaking about future... DDR3 is one of my main gripes.. I somehow am not convinced of the extra I have to pay for DDR3 memory when the performance increase.. is almost.. not so much (according to what I read).. If I stick with DDR2, what types of incompatibility problems would I face in the future? ..

 

9. Ahh the intergrated and discrete graphics.. I've read also some sources I cannot recall about my motherboard and the combination of my motherboard and the 4870 Vid card in some forums. According to them, I AM able to use both these "graphic cards" at the same time to provide even more graphic processing power.. but of course.. I'm not sure if it is true.. but it seems like a good possibility... Apple does this with their Macbook Pros.. The motherboard I'm looking at is the.. Gigabyte MA790GP-UD4H AMD790GX ATX AM2+/AM3 Sideport 2PCI-E Sound GBLAN HDMI CrossFireX Motherboard

 

10. I don't know much about monitors either hahaha.. but I simply just compared the specs like contrast ratio.. brightness.. color support.. resolution.. and HDCP capabilities and found the http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku...anufacture=ASUS .. to be a sweet deal.

 

11. ahhh the power... ok this is the story.. I was thinking of just getting 500W at first.. but then my "computer expert", 32-bit loving friend asked me about my PSU.. so I said.. haha!! I'm going to go for a nicely priced OCZ 500W .. it even has an LED light on the switch to tell you if its on or off. .. and.. THE HORROR!! he told me to NEVER go 850W and below.. He told me stories about his old rig with 500W he built and how he fried all his components because he was hesistating to get a bigger PSU. So .. taking his advice into consideration.. I think 750W should cover me.. for now.. and beyond.. if I ever want to put ... additional vid cards or whatever.. I don't know much about PSU. Do we have an expert here to help me out

 

12. Wheeeeeeee.... nice name, Thank Tom Com.. I will look into DDR3 futher too...

 

13. For now my entire system ~ $1460 CAD.. less than $1500 CAD and I'm pretty surprised... for a killer system like this.. that's a nice price..

 

p/s: I'm currently working in Germany now.. so my replies will come at an odd time (for you US/canadians) readers... but I will be back in Canada by September... and Oct = Win7 so I will build my machine by October... might even make some pictures and document if anybody is interested

[wheee]

Mmkay. =D

 

1. Well, I'll get around to trying OS X eventually as I can't really knock it without having tried it first. Although I am a huge Windows 7 fan; I think it's their best OS yet. Vista was a disappointment compared to 7.

 

2. Yup, in agreement here. Just need to make sure that if you think you'll want two in the future to go for 650w +.

 

3. Mostly the advantage of a dedicated sound card over onboard sound is that the dedicated sound card does not have interference from being on the motherboard (you can hear the motherboard interference if you have nice headphones and you turn up the bass or volume, etc.) But the only advantages that a sound card offers are increased clarity in listening/recording (by a lot, actually), and more channels such as 5.1 and 7.1 if you don't have them onboard. Onboard sound has improved quite a bit since the beginning, so I think you might actually be able to use that, but a good dedicated sound card such as the HT Omega Striker or Asus Xonar D1 (Both around $90 pre-shipping) will completely destroy onboard sound in comparison. Still, try out onboard first and if you want the improvement you can always get the card later.

 

4. You're pretty much right about the 940 vs 955; the reason I included it is that it offers slightly higher stock speed and better overclockability in general, but if you're only going to OC to 3.2ghz with the 940 you don't really need that higher OC ability. Also, the 955 is socket AM3 instead of AM2+, which lets you have more flexibility and future-proofing with your motherboard choice (AM2+ cpus only work on AM2+ motherboards, while AM3 works on AM3 and AM2+ as well).

 

5. Nothing to say here. Maybe the Intel i5 when it releases will be affordable enough. =P

 

6. 4gb is enough for the majority of uses right now. =) Also, they have 4gb sticks, but those are too expensive to be really worth it.

 

7. Pshh, pretty soon you'll see programs becoming incompatible with 32-bit or something. There's no compelling reason to stick to 32-bit right now.

 

8. Performance upgrade from memory isn't that much, correct. However, the reason I suggest going DDR3 is because motherboards only support either DDR2 or DDR3 memory, not both (well, some do, but they're not good motherboards). So you'll be stuck with one or the other. My opinion is that you may as well go DDR3 so that when you want to upgrade a couple of years down the road you won't be limited in terms of memory, as if you go DDR2 you'll be stuck with DDR2 and unable to upgrade to DDR3 later on. That's all I meant by incompatibility; software handles itself fine on DDR2 really. Your choice of motherboard will determine your choice of memory, though. (And probably your choice of CPU will determine your motherboard, ha.)

 

9. Grey answer here. Yes, that motherboard will support combining integrated and discrete graphics using a new technology called Hybrid Crossfire X. However, that technology is not aimed for enthusiasts but rather low budget systems who want some extra performance. You are only able to crossfire two cards if they are of the same make, in general. The highest card that your integrated graphics will crossfire with is the 3470, I believe. That should bring its performance up to a 3650 in total, which is roughly equivalent to a nVidia 9500GT which is a renamed 8600GT. Hybrid crossfiring a card as advanced as the 4870 won't work; the 4870 can absolutely destroy the 8600 with one finger anyways. But it is an option for those with a really low budget; pop in a $30 card to get performance equivalent to a $60 card?

 

10. Yeah, when I think monitors, I just go for some flatscreen. I have not the slightest clue about them. x.x

 

11. Your friend either

 

a. Underestimated his power requirements by trying to run a crossfire setup on 500w or something

b. Picked a no-name brand PSU trying to save some money and paid the price for it

c. Just got really unlucky.

 

Problem A can be solved by calculating your power usage, although 500w is 99.99% of the time enough for single card setups that aren't like i7 + nVidia 295, and 650w is future proof. Here's a good link for calculating your usage. Make sure you select at least TDP 90%, although I usually max out everything at 100% and throw in 20% capacitor aging just to be really safe. For example, on one system I have I'm running an Intel Q6600 quad with that aforementioned 9500GT on only 300w. For a card as nice as the 4870 though, you'll want 500w.

 

Problem B is also easily solvable by making sure you're buying a reputable PSU. Bad PSUs rated at 700w, for example, may actually only supply like 400w and have voltage instability on the rails (which is they call the line that supplies power). OCZ has nice PSUs, any of their Stealth/Mod/Game/Pro/Elite/Evo + (X)Stream will do nicely (ex. OCZ StealthXStream).

 

Problem C is just bad luck. D=

 

12. When you decide the components you want for your system I can pull up a price for it, or you can do it yourself if you want to. I'm not sure where you usually do your shopping (I buy my parts from newegg.com, although I don't know if their Canada service is as good as their US service right now).

 

PS. Your 32-bit loving friend, I think, gets caught up in internet stories too easily. No offense to him, but incompatibility has pretty much disappeared and will probably reverse in a while and I remember all the rage a little while ago was like 1000w power supplies at least for even only slightly high-end systems. D= Either that or he really just didn't know which brand of PSU was good and got unlucky.

 

EDIT: As a side note, I've managed to pull together a list of parts that total including shipping and taxes under $1500 CAD using the Phenom II 955 and DDR3 memory and includes everything you needed; the only problems I could see are that the motherboard only has rear USB ports and I picked external usb card readers and wireless adapters. =P 700w of power too. Oh, and that's everything except the operating system; just the machine itself here.

 

Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition

MSI 790GX-G65 (Motherboard)

Cooler Master Centurion 5 (Case)

Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 7200RPM 32MB cache (Hard Drive)

Asus VH242H 23.6" Monitor (That same one)

Rosewill RNX-G1W USB 2.0 Wireless Dongle with external antenna (wireless adapter)

XFX Radeon HD 4870 1GB (Graphics)

OCZ StealthXStream OCZ700SXS (Power Supply)

Kingston FCR-HS219/1 19-in-1 USB 2.0 Card Reader (Yup)

G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3 1333, Timings 8-8-8-21 (Memory, best DDR3 timings are 6-6-6, slowest is 9-9-9, 8 is decent)

Cirago BTA-3210 USB 2.0 Micro Bluetooth Dongle Supports Bluetooth 2.1

Pioneer Black Blu-Ray Reader and 12x DVD+R DVD Burner SATA

 

Subtotal: $1,268.18 CAD

Handling + Fees + Tax: $153.45 CAD

Shipping (UPS Standard): $77.01 CAD

Total: $1498.64 CAD

 

That's an example AM3/DDR3 build. I'm sure you can save enough to afford an OS as well if you went with AM2+ and the Phenom II 940, though. But I wanted to create a baseline. =P

 

EDIT2: These prices are crazy even before shipping. For $1500 converted into USD I could get a full blown Core i7 system. D=

[ChocolateJeff]

These prices are crazy even before shipping. For $1500 converted into USD I could get a full blown Core i7 system

 

Indeed they are . Can you imagine for a closely similar system, minus the keyboard/mouse and OS, it could be priced over.. gee i dunno.. maybe $2500 USD!! Not going to be going for names (Aheeaamm Aliens.. AHaaaeem *cough) here but I think for "higher end" systems, you shouldn't buy prepackaged. Sure, it comes with warantty and phone support.. etc. but when you do the sheer math. It just ain't worth the money.

 

I do most of my computer shopping from NCIX before.. but now I just discovered newegg.com I think I might compare prices to see which combination gives me the best deal. Of course with NCIX.. I can just pick it up from the store therefore.. just paying tax and not shipping fees..

 

Anyways.. whee.. thank you for looking all that stuff up.. that's some sweet stuff at sweet prices.. For the wireless and bluetooth.. I was already planning to go USB with that so it wasn't a problem .. however, for the card reader.. I was thinking this..

 

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=214...hnologies%20Inc.

 

but I'm not sure if all the types of card can be read.. as far as I know.. hahah I will only use it for SD cards from Cameras... but of couse.. having support for 19 different cards could come in handy too... I don't know.. Hmm...

 

So. What say you community of Insanelymac.. with this configuration... what do you think of OS X running on this beast?

[ChocolateJeff]

Ok, so I went a little exploring further about the system I'm about to make and I found out that Pioneer's Blu-ray Reader "may" not be compatible with some motherboards

 

It was reported by some guys in a forum that he bought this drive only to have it NOT working. Apparently there are issues with the AMD chipsets and this drive.

 

I also decided now I will go the Phenom II X4 955 route with 4GB DDR3 and a cool (or hot..) MSI HD 4890. I'm also planning to go with the MSI 790GX-65 Motherboard . My only fear is the Blu-Ray reader.. if anybody has any knowledge.. please do tell.

 

I suppose I can go with other more "compatible" blu-ray readers.. I'm interested in getting a drive for reading blu-ray movies/discs and DVD/CD +RW Read and Write. Pioneer seems to be the only one with all this functionality.. (and not an OUTRAGEOUS pricetag)