Americans (and others) should read this article

[killbot1000]

Well, good. Because I'm not trying to justify anyone, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis. My only concern in this thread is to point out that we are starting to use Terrorism as a label for anything we don't like.I think the real problem here is that I have committed the blasphemy of trying to look at USA/Iraq/Palestine/Israel rationally. I have tried to talk seriously about the words that are used on us to make us feel one way or another about what is going on over there. There are evil people in the world. These people want us, at all costs, not to think about what the USA/Israel is doing. They want us to not think about what Hamas/Iran/Whatever is doing, either. These people (let's call them controllers for this purpose) want us to feel, not think. One of the ways they achieve this is by the use of buzzwords. When you and I use terrorism to mean "stuff I think is wrong" or when we allow the 'controllers' to use words like terrorism on something they don't like, then we are playing right into their hands. We give up and let these controllers think for us. They decide when to engage our memories of our mothers' teachings of good vs. evil.When we begin to think for ourselves, there's a chance we won't let them do what they want with us.

 

 

Very well said! I don't believe good and evil is clear and defined. I am not even sure if Good/Evil exists (but that's just me), but I agree with most of what you have to say, glad to see others feel the same way!

[Descalzo]

If you mean the covert ops, what would you call it? I mean it's no secret that any intelligence agency (not just the CIA) kills anyone who gets in their way. Just check out some of their missions in the history.

As has been said earlier, I don't think it fits the definition of terrorism because there's no terror involved, theres no violence for political coercion.

 

What would I call it? It has a name: Covert Ops!

 

I read Sun Tzu's The Art Of War once. He breaks down the cost of fielding ONE SOLDIER. He addresses the cost to society, the monetary cost, and the agricultural cost of arming and fielding a single soldier. This is your basic recruit. When that is multiplied by the number of soldiers and support personnel in an army, then it starts to get serious. If that soldier dies, this has a cost to his family and village. If many die, this cost is compounded. He says that when you consider this fabulous cost of life and treasure to field an army, it is immoral not to engage in whatever covert trickery you can to avoid sending that army to battle, or to make the certainty of your victory that much more sure.

 

So I don't consider Covert Ops evil, or rather, I don't consider Covert Ops for a legitimate military need to be evil. These particular covert ops might very well be bad. They might be ill-advised, in which case it is a waste of life and trust. They may be unlawful, in which case it is an even greater waste of life and trust.

 

Or is that not terrorism for you because they are "approved" to do that stuff?

Terrorism I think often has a connotation that it is unlawful, but not all of the definitions I put in earlier include that in their definition. I think that it would not be terrorism for me because it is not meant for political coercion. Also, this is not to say that these covert ops are lawful. For one thing, who's law? So that's why I hesitate to adopt 'unlawful' as a concrete part of the idea of terrorism.

 

Refer to my example of the North Vietnamese invasion of South Vietnam. That is not terrorism. The Holocaust was not terrorism. The 6-day war was not terrorism. I don't even think Sherman's March to the Sea was terrorism.

 

You want to call something evil? Call it evil. I think the NV invasion of SV was evil. I think the Holocaust was evil. These are far WORSE than terrorism, but not terrorism.

[Fernicus]

I think the real problem here is that I have committed the blasphemy of trying to look at USA/Iraq/Palestine/Israel rationally. I have tried to talk seriously about the words that are used on us to make us feel one way or another about what is going on over there. There are evil people in the world. These people want us, at all costs, not to think about what the USA/Israel is doing. They want us to not think about what Hamas/Iran/Whatever is doing, either. These people (let's call them controllers for this purpose) want us to feel, not think. One of the ways they achieve this is by the use of buzzwords. When you and I use terrorism to mean "stuff I think is wrong" or when we allow the 'controllers' to use words like terrorism on something they don't like, then we are playing right into their hands. We give up and let these controllers think for us. They decide when to engage our memories of our mothers' teachings of good vs. evil.When we begin to think for ourselves, there's a chance we won't let them do what they want with us.

 

Ok, but of a first glance, it seemed that you were trying redirect the discussion to either covert operations are legitimate or not, and while your words seems much more logical now, I must remember you that this isn't the subject proposed by the topic.

 

I totally agree with you when you say that there are evil people in the world. Their intentions, as you described, is to confuse us. But I think that they achieve equal success when people starts to lose time trying to determine which political speech is the right one. At this point, they have hindered you.

 

As I said before, the answer to this dilemma is quite simple: It has to stop now. YOU, before any other people in the world, need to go outside and tell your government you don't support this situation and you won't accept it any longer.

 

The raw fact is that the U.S is an extremely powerful nation which is messing with other nations business without any legitimate reason. On my opinion, it belongs to you, U.S. citizens, the role of taking an active position to ban this cultural trace from your history. And you won't be able to do it by just looking at the situation with that rationalism of yours.