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Clinton or Obama?

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Well I live in the UK so its none of my business but I have been following the candidate race.

I hope it is Obama as I am really cheesed of with this stupid pointless Iraqi oil/weapons-sales war that Clinton voted for which has caused hundreds of thousands of human beings to die and suffer and completely messed up the Middle East. I feel really sorry for rational minded Americans its not your fault that your political system is funded by weapons, oil companies and other interested companies.

Obama seems to offer the best hope of a corruptly funded bunch (if its any help our political system in the UK hilariously out of date). Thats my view however:

 

My preconceptions suggest that a lot of racist/sexist Americans really wont like Obama or Clinton which could unsettle the USA, are my preconceptions unfounded I hope they are?

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Good.

If you have more money, you should be taxed more - makes sense to me, works fine over here.

What you could do is get rid of those SUVs you don't need and get a sensible car, that way, you will save a lot of money.

We are taxed enough. Over 50% of the money we make goes to the state. And to be honest the small cars we buy are the expensive. Our GMC cost us about 35k 5 years ago. Luckily this car is old and is going to be replaced by the 1st GMC hybrid coming out of the retail place near our house. Our BMW M5, which costs 110k, has less fuel economy and is way smaller. I want McCain to win. If Huckabee wasn't religious I would vote for him.
What a lame excuse. Can't they get the bus or are they too snotty and upper class too?

Marvin... what the hell, man? Jealous much?

If by here you mean Canada, you really should speak for yourself.

I couldn't agree more with Numberzz on this one. Why should my and my family's hard work (and you have no idea how hard we've worked) be thrown aside because a bunch of people haven't found work? It annoys me to no avail... not my fault others have no business sense. I shouldn't have to distribute so much of my wealth to others. What if we took 50% of your salary and gave it away? How would you feel when that much money is taken away from you?

 

Back to politics, it's a shame that the liberals are all far-left-wing, while the republicans are bible-loving zealots. I wish the US would have some neo-conservatives of sort. I mean get with the times, abortion is a must. Sex happens. Why are these issues even debated? I would probably have no political identity if I moved there. Oh well.

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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.

 

If you have trouble deciding, then you have a major problem.

They are both the same. Stalinists.

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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.

 

If you have trouble deciding, then you have a major problem.

They are both the same. Stalinists.

 

Why are we standing for nothing? What dont you see?

 

I know its popular to say all politicians suck and to just call them names and things you don't understand. The question is why you feel this way, do you have anything to back up what you're saying? Obama was a civil rights lawyer and was a lecturer at the University of Chicago law where he tought constitutional law, he has a mostly clean record. I don't understand how this makes him a stalinist.

 

Hillary Clinton for all her faults hardly comes off to me as a stalinist. I would say she is just disconnected from the average american, but that doesnt mean she wishes them harm or wants to be a dictator, etc.

 

uh...?

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Why should my and my family's hard work (and you have no idea how hard we've worked) be thrown aside because a bunch of people haven't found work? It annoys me to no avail... not my fault others have no business sense. I shouldn't have to distribute so much of my wealth to others. What if we took 50% of your salary and gave it away? How would you feel when that much money is taken away from you?

1. Wealth "creates" wealth. When someone has money, such as from a family inheritance/estate, that person is given an advantage over their peers who don't have a rich family member/estate. It gets to the point where wealth is increasingly consolidated into fewer and fewer families/individuals. This causes economic and social growth to become retarded, increases crime and other social ills, and isn't fair. It is impossible for Bill Gates to be so many billions of times more productive than someone else who works 40 hours a week (or two jobs) and is around the poverty line or a bit above. Given that such incredible productivity is impossible, such wealth is a symptom of an unfair exploitive system where people can hoard more than their share.

 

2. The opposite of government is anarchy. People who want to do away with taxation are anarchists. With no taxation there is no money for government to exist. What's the opposite of anarchy? Civilized society. That's why fair taxation is critical for a society's well being. Society isn't just you or your family members and you're not where you are today because you and your family members did everything. Society is a collective where the work of others enable others' work. If you have an injury, you need to have a doctor work on you in order to be able to work. Etc.

 

3. "Business sense" is not a magic mantra that refutes the logic I've just laid out. It doesn't make an unfair system fair. People are not preordained by a higher power to lord over others and have a much better life. That's BS. It's the sort of thing Andrew Carnegie used to come up with to justify his extreme wealth. At least he chose to become a philanthropist later. The bottom line, however, is that Obama's "people aren't looking for charity, they're looking for fairness" point is spot-on. In a truly fair society, there is little if any need for charity or philanthropy.

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I wish the US would have some neo-conservatives of sort.

We do have neo-conservatives! In fact there are nearly no true conservatives (also known as paleo-conservatives) left. Ron Paul was the last true conservative to get much limelight. Huckabee, Bush, Romney, Cheney, Wolfowitz etc are all neo-cons. The neo-con regime is for things like 'preemptive wars'; A true conservative would not want us policing the world (we have bases all over the world, not just Iraq). Neo-cons are the reason we have this 9 trillion dollar debt, they spend as much as liberals.

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Do any of you people that think we need more taxes make more than minimum wage? Not being rude, just asking, because in my case, I'm getting taxed more than enough thanks. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, I live in a crappy 2 room apt. and drive an old toyota camry. That said, the government decided to take a hair under 29% of my income. And for what? To start preemptive wars? To give money to people who aren't working so they can gamble it away at the local casino? (Yeah you want to doubt that bit, go ask someone who knows something at a casino what their busiest night is. The last time we did a job for one, I was informed it was when the welfare checks arrive. Nice to know I'm supporting gambling habits of those "who just need a hand." Better change that to "Just need a hand-out." Makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.) How do you think Obama is going to pay for all these checks to "volunteers" and college students? He's going to take more money from the working class. How is Hitlery going to pay for her "universal health care" she's going to take lots more of my money, that's how.

 

Now you can say that smaller government is anarchy, and bigger government is good, and I'll say you're an idiot. The Government here in the US was formed to protect our freedoms, Not to take them away, and Not to grant them.

In the event you've forgotten the exact words, here's a quote:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

 

 

 

"And conservatives widen the class gap, well done, you've just shoved a greater percentage of the country into poverty ;) "

 

Wake up. Take your head out of the sand and look around. The liberals want very baddly to tax the working class into poverty. How else are they going to pay for all these "feel good" things like social security benefits for illegal aliens, or univeral healthcare, or checks to volunteers? Mint more money? I think not. You want to see the class gap widen, just wait a year or so, let whichever liberal gets into office start the tax increases, and watch the clintons with their off-shore accounts get shoved into poverty... oh wait, that's right, they won't be hurting too bad, looks like it's just us in the working class that'll get bumped down to poverty. But hey there'll be welfare checks for us right! And free healthcare. Awesome! Screw working 60 hours a week, I'm going to sit on my ass and collect a check!

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Now you can say that smaller government is anarchy, and bigger government is good, and I'll say you're an idiot. The Government here in the US was formed to protect our freedoms, Not to take them away, and Not to grant them.

In my opinion the US is in an akward limbo between a small constitional republic (how the government was in say, 1890) and mild democratic socialism. It needs to go one way or the other: we could be paying less taxes and get the same amount of servirces, or pay the same amount of taxes and get more services (really dumbed things down there, but I don't feel like writing an essay and no one feels like reading one :P ).

Wake up. Take your head out of the sand and look around. The liberals want very baddly to tax the working class into poverty. How else are they going to pay for all these "feel good" things like social security benefits for illegal aliens, or univeral healthcare, or checks to volunteers?

Conservative or Liberal, it doesn't matter. Each party wants to spend ungodly amounts of money that we don't have.

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Conservative or Liberal, it doesn't matter. Each party wants to spend ungodly amounts of money that we don't have.

 

I have to disagree there, I'm talking ideology, not just parties or issues. I don't see a bit of difference between McCain and the democrats, they are all bad. This time around there isn't even a "lesser evil" to vote for, and it looks like I'll be writing in Rush Limbaugh just to {censored} some people off, since I won't vote for any of the big three. I'd rather toss out my vote than toss out my principles.

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My vote is going for Obama. I like him, he seems like he's got a decent gameplay, the only thing I'd worry about though, is compared to Hillary, Obama doesn't have tons of experience. But, Hillary doesn't have real experience either. Yes, she does have some of her own, but most of which is from Bills experience. From what I've seen of Hillary, she mostly talks on what she's done already, and I've got to say. To a point, I DON'T CARE. Yes, it's good to know what you've done, but I want to know what you're going to do. Plus, for some reason I can't explain, I just don't like her.

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My vote is going for Obama. I like him, he seems like he's got a decent gameplay, the only thing I'd worry about though, is compared to Hillary, Obama doesn't have tons of experience. But, Hillary doesn't have real experience either. Yes, she does have some of her own, but most of which is from Bills experience. From what I've seen of Hillary, she mostly talks on what she's done already, and I've got to say. To a point, I DON'T CARE. Yes, it's good to know what you've done, but I want to know what you're going to do. Plus, for some reason I can't explain, I just don't like her.

 

Obama has more experience than hillary Clinton, and I think he has enough experience to be commander in Chief, the reason why I think this is simply a logical one. Obama has grown up and lived in many different kinds of neighborhoods thoughout his life and has actually felt the racial divide in this country, while Clinton has only read about it. He has been in the system from multiple angles (Civil Rights lawyer, Lecturer, Community organizer, state senate, US senate). His record as an Illinois state senator is also impressive, he has helped pass many laws within Illinois for various things such as Human rights, education, etc.

 

If one takes a look at Hillary Clinton's record throughout her time as a US senator, I wouldn't say there's much experience there, also the one important thing that she had a voice on (the Iraq War), she made the wrong call. I don't know if this is somebody we want as our president...I really dont

 

Hillary Clinton is not genuine, thats what I don't like about her, she says time and time again that " (insert State Here) voters deserve..." and the thing they deserve just so happens to be the thing that will help her out. She feels like somebody who will say and do anything to be elected.

 

I realize you like Obama more and so do I. I was only replying to your part about experience, or lack thereof.

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I am for Obama, when it comes to the technology field, I think Hillary would cause more harm than good.

 

Obama has some good plans for trying to beat telecoms into submission and getting them to quit filtering what we can and cannot do on the internet.

 

He's no Al Gore, but I think he is a step in the right direction.

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neither. they're both socialists. we all know how that worked out for the USSR

 

The USSR was not socialism, it was a dictatorship.

 

Socialism is not always bad, it depends on your own country's needs.

 

To throw out another point, Both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are not socialists.

 

Being liberal does not make one a Socialist, many liberal, progressive people are against unnecessary government intervention. One great example is Hillary Clinton's stand on Video games and violence, she wants to regulate the industry, even though the industry is pretty effectively regulating itself.

 

While Democrats and Liberals sometimes tend to over-regulate business, the republicans and conservatives tend to under-regulate it, and let any business do whatever they want, even if what they want is...for lack of a better word, wrong.

 

Socially though the republicans and conservatives need to get with the program, they need to accept the fact that we live in a more global world now and that issues like contraception, abortion, {censored} marriage, and different kinds of religions and different cultural ways of thinking are going to become even more of an issue in the coming years.

 

Barack Obama has gone on the record to say "Look were Americans, were self-reliant people, we don't want the government doing for us what we can do ourselves". Those don't really sound like the words of a socialist to me...

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How else are they going to pay for all these "feel good" things like social security benefits for illegal aliens, or univeral healthcare, or checks to volunteers?

 

You make Universal Healthcare sound like a bad thing.

Maybe you should take your head out of the sand and realise that a universal healthcare system is key to a fair, modern and developed society.

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You make Universal Healthcare sound like a bad thing.

Maybe you should take your head out of the sand and realise that a universal healthcare system is key to a fair, modern and developed society.

 

I completely agree, and so do many Americans. It should be a public system though, not the government requiring you to BUY health coverage from a private company, what kind universal healthcare plan is that? (Hillary Clintons) heheh

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You make Universal Healthcare sound like a bad thing.

Maybe you should take your head out of the sand and realise that a universal healthcare system is key to a fair, modern and developed society.

 

What is one program run for the American public, by the Governmnet, that is more efficient than the private industry. Hell name one program that is even a moderately good thing. Because the last time I checked on it, social security didn't seem like it was doing so hot. Neither was the local DMV, and to be honest the postal service plain old sucks compared to UPS or Fedex.

Now you want the same people running social security to run healthcare? Are you MAD?! Dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's the lazy that come up with {censored} like this, and people who refuse to take personal responsibility for their own lives. After all, no matter how crappy the government run program is, it's still easier than having to pay for it yourself. So you shirk it off, let someone else carry the load for you. Grow a damn spine.

 

If by modern you mean controlled, then yes this is one more step in that direction. Less freedom is never a good thing. First healthcare, then food choices, then cars, then clothes, then houses. After all, everyone should have free food, otherwise it's not FAIR. Same goes for houses.

 

Wake up. Life isn't fair. Life hasn't been fair, and life never will be fair. For every long end of the stick there's a short one to match. {censored} happens, cars crash, trees fall over, deranged psychopaths with swords wander the street every now and then. Get used to it.

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What is one program run for the American public, by the Governmnet, that is more efficient than the private industry. Hell name one program that is even a moderately good thing. Because the last time I checked on it, social security didn't seem like it was doing so hot. Neither was the local DMV, and to be honest the postal service plain old sucks compared to UPS or Fedex.

Now you want the same people running social security to run healthcare? Are you MAD?! Dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's the lazy that come up with {censored} like this, and people who refuse to take personal responsibility for their own lives. After all, no matter how crappy the government run program is, it's still easier than having to pay for it yourself. So you shirk it off, let someone else carry the load for you. Grow a damn spine.

 

If by modern you mean controlled, then yes this is one more step in that direction. Less freedom is never a good thing. First healthcare, then food choices, then cars, then clothes, then houses. After all, everyone should have free food, otherwise it's not FAIR. Same goes for houses.

 

Wake up. Life isn't fair. Life hasn't been fair, and life never will be fair. For every long end of the stick there's a short one to match. {censored} happens, cars crash, trees fall over, deranged psychopaths with swords wander the street every now and then. Get used to it.

 

Quoted For Truth

 

big government FTL, i want to handle MY OWN AFFAIRS

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What is one program run for the American public, by the Governmnet, that is more efficient than the private industry. Hell name one program that is even a moderately good thing. Because the last time I checked on it, social security didn't seem like it was doing so hot. Neither was the local DMV, and to be honest the postal service plain old sucks compared to UPS or Fedex.

Now you want the same people running social security to run healthcare? Are you MAD?! Dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's the lazy that come up with {censored} like this, and people who refuse to take personal responsibility for their own lives. After all, no matter how crappy the government run program is, it's still easier than having to pay for it yourself. So you shirk it off, let someone else carry the load for you. Grow a damn spine.

 

If by modern you mean controlled, then yes this is one more step in that direction. Less freedom is never a good thing. First healthcare, then food choices, then cars, then clothes, then houses. After all, everyone should have free food, otherwise it's not FAIR. Same goes for houses.

 

Wake up. Life isn't fair. Life hasn't been fair, and life never will be fair. For every long end of the stick there's a short one to match. {censored} happens, cars crash, trees fall over, deranged psychopaths with swords wander the street every now and then. Get used to it.

 

Medicare works pretty well...that is before the Bush Dynasty got to it.

 

Government can work if we work toward a common goal, its easier to be "efficient" when you're the one making all the decisions, if we had a dictator in office maybe the government would be more efficient...

 

Government is good as long as the people keep it in check, the government is there to serve the people, the people are not there to serve the government. If it becomes unjust its our obligation to overthrow it.

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