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Gateways EFI models with Windows XP... how did THEY do it?

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OK crazymonkeypants. I will clarify my post for your highness:

 

I own two 865PE motherboards for desktops. After messing with a unsuccessful homemade BIOS and flashing it to the mobo, I switched chips, the PC started, switched chips back, and ran the reflash utility, restarted, and both were working.

 

BIOS is loaded into the Memory I believe... The EPROM chips is just where it is stored while there is no power coursing through the memory chips to keep the data.

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There's no need to be condescending, crazymonkeypants. This is all uncharted waters in a lot of ways, so if we make mistakes along the way, that's fine.

 

It's not a case of condescension so much as I'm just tired of listening to people without a clue blathering on about this issue.

 

This is not something that can be "solved" by wild speculation; it's a practical engineering problem that can only be resolved with a good understanding of the issues involved.

 

Making mistakes and asking questions is one thing; I'm all for the education process or I wouldn't be posting in these threads in the first place. I just wish that a few people would blather less and ask/listen a little more.

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BIOS is loaded into the Memory I believe... The EPROM chips is just where it is stored while there is no power coursing through the memory chips to keep the data.

 

An important first step in understanding where you're falling down here would be to examine the word "believe" in the sentence above.

 

Belief is not useful in this context. What is required is knowledge.

 

I would encourage you to study closely the pictures of the iMac logic board that were posted some weeks back by a certain Japanese site. Pay close attention to anything that looks like an "EPROM" that might be conveniently removed from the board. You might also consider looking at any other board that Apple has designed in the last decade or so, to get a feel for how they feel about socketed firmware devices.

 

Since research isn't your strong point, I'll help you out with this and this.

 

A further step would be for you to search Apple's website for any signs of a firmware update tool that you might use in this endeavour.

 

Once you have armed yourself with a few facts in this fashion, you will be in a much better position to make statements about the relevance of your hypothesis. In general it's good to amass this sort of thing before rushing into print, as it gives you something to respond to all this pesky criticism with.

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This is just me but I say all the dscussion and working out of how to get XP to boot will be moot soon enough. Now that Apple has cut the ties to BIOS the rest of the PC industry will follow and MS will eiter patch XP to boot on EFI mobos or Vista will be out...in the meantime, enjoy your shiny new mac running OS X as it should.

 

I find it amusing to witness so many people eager to get their PC's running intel OS X (hence this site was spawned) then as soon as the intel macs are out you want to run XP. Odd (or is it a case of 'because we can'?)

 

Bartron

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This is just me but I say all the dscussion and working out of how to get XP to boot will be moot soon enough. Now that Apple has cut the ties to BIOS the rest of the PC industry will follow and MS will eiter patch XP to boot on EFI mobos or Vista will be out...in the meantime, enjoy your shiny new mac running OS X as it should.

 

I find it amusing to witness so many people eager to get their PC's running intel OS X (hence this site was spawned) then as soon as the intel macs are out you want to run XP. Odd (or is it a case of 'because we can'?)

 

Bartron

Wild rumor from this site:

 

www.macintouch.com

 

11:02 EST And finally, for what it's worth, this entertaining rumor from a friend:

 

For whatever this sketchy rumor is worth, I happened to be sitting at the same table of someone in the Macworld speaker's lounge who, with apparent authority, assured his rapt listeners that there would be an announcement from MicroSoft in 'early February' that Windows is running native on the Intel Macs.

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This is just me but I say all the dscussion and working out of how to get XP to boot will be moot soon enough. Now that Apple has cut the ties to BIOS the rest of the PC industry will follow and MS will eiter patch XP to boot on EFI mobos or Vista will be out...in the meantime, enjoy your shiny new mac running OS X as it should.

 

I find it amusing to witness so many people eager to get their PC's running intel OS X (hence this site was spawned) then as soon as the intel macs are out you want to run XP. Odd (or is it a case of 'because we can'?)

 

Bartron

 

I think it's that a lot of people who originally hacked it for fun are actually planning on buying a Macintel.

 

But that's off topic. :)

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Assuming you're referring to the Gateway system, what good do you expect this to do you? The Gateway firmware isn't going to work, in any useful fashion, on an Apple system.

It might work. Unlike BIOS, EFI is mostly the same on any system.

Flashing the Gateway's firmware onto the iMac might not work, but loading the Gateway's CSM module for EFI on the iMac may work.

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No. The Apple and Gateway systems are completely different machines; neither the PEI component (early hardware initialisation) nor the drivers (the bulk of the interesting parts of DXE) would be cross-compatible.

 

On top of that, the EFI that Gateway used is a third-party effort which may or may not be based on the Tiano nee Intel codebase, so there may be even less in the way of architectural similarity.

 

It's like asking if you could put the engine out of a helicopter into a balloon. Sure, they're both flying machines, but the similarity stops right there.

Uh, every EFI thing would be based off of Tiano. Apple's is based off it, and if the CSM is a .efi module then it'd be easy to extract it (we've already extracted all 107 modules from Apple's EFI implementation) and possibly load it, but it'd probably take a bit of work.

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if the CSM is a .efi module then it'd be easy to extract it

I don't know for sure that this is so, but I believe TianoCore's EFI package has a legacyboot.efi file.

 

If someone has access to one of those Gateway PCs: could you please extract all EFI modules and post a list of them?

 

we've already extracted all 107 modules from Apple's EFI implementation

Could you please post a list of these EFI modules in the forum?

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Uh, every EFI thing would be based off of Tiano. Apple's is based off it, and if the CSM is a .efi module then it'd be easy to extract it (we've already extracted all 107 modules from Apple's EFI implementation) and possibly load it, but it'd probably take a bit of work.

 

Tiano is in a non-shipping state; it is unlikely that it will be product-ready for a long time to come.

 

As I pointed out in this thread, CSM is not just a "module" that you can load. It comprises an interface to existing, legacy BIOS code and that code.

 

There is no legacy BIOS code for the Apple Intel platforms. In addition, the interfaces to that code are not something that can be loaded at runtime; again, I encourage folks with the ability to look at the code that is present in the TianoCore EDK to get a better understanding of this.

 

I don't know for sure that this is so, but I believe TianoCore's EFI package has a legacyboot.efi file.

 

Here's this "belief" thing again. Why don't you go *look* ?

 

Here's a hint. The TianoCore folks do not distribute compiled objects; they distribute source code. The .efi suffix identifies a PE32+ binary compiled to run under EFI. Ergo, your chances of finding a "legacyboot.efi" file are pretty slim.

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As I pointed out in this thread, CSM is not just a "module" that you can load. It comprises an interface to existing, legacy BIOS code and that code.

Hmm, if that's true, I guess there is no way to re-integrate CSM into EFI.

Flashing another Intel 945 motherboard's firmware to the Intel iMac might work??? If not, we'll have to wait for Windows Vista.

 

Apple Intel platforms

Just plain Intel platform. The iMac uses a standard Intel motherbord.

 

Here's a hint. The TianoCore folks do not distribute compiled objects; they distribute source code. The .efi suffix identifies a PE32+ binary compiled to run under EFI. Ergo, your chances of finding a "legacyboot.efi" file are pretty slim.

Actually, there is a file legacyboot.efi in the TianoCore package! Go see yourself.

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Hmm, if that's true, I guess there is no way to re-integrate CSM into EFI.

Flashing another Intel 945 motherboard's firmware to the Intel iMac might work??? If not, we'll have to wait for Windows Vista.

 

For the n-th time, no, it will not work.

 

Just plain Intel platform. The iMac uses a standard Intel motherbord.

 

No, it does not. Go look at the images I linked above. Does that look like a "standard Intel motherboard" to you?

 

Actually, there is a file legacyboot.efi in the TianoCore package! Go see yourself.

 

I believe that I've downloaded everything the TianoCore folks have to offer; would you mind posting a link to the download in which you saw this?

 

Regardless, the points I've made previously regarding the integration issues with CSM stand; it's not a practical undertaking.

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I have access to one of those machines. I get the feeling they're semi-rare considering the place I found them used to have 6 and 5 blew up.

 

I'm pretty much a novice when it comes to this type of stuff, but i suppose i could back up the EFI partition to something. It couldn't be that big, most BIOS were only a couple of MB, right? I didn't even know EFI ran off of a "partition" if that gives you much of a concept of how much I know.

 

Would anyone know how to do a ROM dump for an EFI system? (I could handle BIOS, but I would imagine EFI is different). I can't even seem to find a shell in the EFI configuration. Wasn't that supposed to one of the bigger advantages? What would be the best way to do this?

 

If someone walks me through this I can share any information necessary. I'm willing to do what I can to make this project successful. Please stop flaming. I am not making any kind of speculation about how this would be done, just willing to offer my resources to anyone who wants to give this a shot.

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Hi again,

I've been surfing a little bit and I have found something that I don't remember if you have talked about it already (so if you have, sorry, don't flame me)

http://support.gateway.com/support/drivers...3&uid=113110586

 

That's a download link for a Gateway 610 BIOS Update. Are there Gateway 610 computers without EFI but only BIOS? Or they just call them all BIOS?

Well, anyway that's the link and I hope we can get something from it.

 

There are also chipset drivers, but they aren't very useful:

http://support.gateway.com/support/drivers...2&uid=113110966

 

 

By the way... ;) Is there some sort of IRC room of OSX86project? That way it might be useful have some encounters between those who own a new iMac (mine is coming next week, I guess) and those who want to help. Just my :)

 

Well, that's all, tell me if can we get something from the BIOS dump

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I believe that I've downloaded everything the TianoCore folks have to offer

:blink::graduated::graduated::pope:

Well... looks like u obviously didnt.....ever tried to look deeply in the efi1_10_14_62 and EDK packages ?:whistle:

Attached u can find the legacyboot.efi file that "dont exist !" according to you.... :dev:

Dont make wrong statements based on your poor search capabilities......."FACTS" are a different thing from "thoughts" !! :hysterical:

DS

legacyboot.efi.zip

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Hi. Just wanted to add some of my experience on PC Bios... There is always a way to reflash a bios if the flashing went wrong and the machine won't even accept a bios flash floppy disk.

 

All you need is:

 

1. A testing pc, on which you do your bios experimentation (PC1)

2. A second pc, using the same EPROM type of chip (it may or may not contain the same bios!) (PC2)

 

You use pc to experiment on flashing firmwares. if something goes wrong and your pc won't even boot, you use PC2 to reflash your bios: you boot up windows on PC2, remove the bios chip while windows is running, insert the bios chip of PC1, run the flashing utility and flash the Bios file of PC1. Then you shut down PC2, swap the chips again and.. voila! it works!

 

The bios chip is used by a computer ONLY when you turn it on and before booting the operating system. This means you can remove a computer's bios chip while the conputer has finished booting windows. there is no problem removing the chip while it runs, i've done it at least 20 times in the past, every pc was recovered (100% success)!

 

It is a very easy thing to do if the bios chip is easy to remove, eg if it isn't soldered on the mainboard. If it is, you need to desolder the chip and add a socket to the mainboards so that the chips can easily be removed and placed back on again.

 

You can use the same method to extract the EFI bios from an APPLE MAC. Removing the bios chip from a mac and placing it on a PC mainboard while this is running windows, then extract the firmware from the mac bios chip should also work.

 

I've been experimenting with PC bios flashing in the past. I was working in a PC store and lots of customers were tweaking their pc and often ruined their bios. This method DOES work.

 

Hope I helped out a bit!

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No, it does not. Go look at the images I linked above. Does that look like a "standard Intel motherboard" to you?

Yes, it does. Talk to pretty much anyone in this forum, and they will tell you the same. Apple does not have any custom hardware in their Intel-iMac.

Do Intel-based Macs use special proprietary Intel processors and/or chipsets?

 

No:

Intel has indicated to MacFixIt that upcoming Macs based on the company's chipsets will not be proprietary. In other words, the processors and associated components used by Apple will be the same Intel products available to other PC manufacturers, not products designed specifically for Apple.

 

Please verify that what you post is true and communicate non-facts so that it does not sound like you take it for a fact and want to crush other facts with it (use e.g. I believe that..., I am pretty sure that...).

 

I'm pretty much a novice when it comes to this type of stuff, but i suppose i could back up the EFI partition to something. It couldn't be that big, most BIOS were only a couple of MB, right? I didn't even know EFI ran off of a "partition" if that gives you much of a concept of how much I know.

 

Would anyone know how to do a ROM dump for an EFI system? (I could handle BIOS, but I would imagine EFI is different). I can't even seem to find a shell in the EFI configuration. Wasn't that supposed to one of the bigger advantages? What would be the best way to do this?

It probably is better to make an image of the EFI partition. Actually, EFI doesn't run from that partition, it uses it for storing other modules.

I don't think dumping EFI-ROM is much different from dumping BIOS-ROM. Try it using a traditional BIOS ROM-dump program. I couldn't find any specific EFI-ROM-dump programs.

How to enter the EFI shell is described at http://nak.journalspace.com/?cmd=displayco...407&entryid=407

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I think we can pretty much seal this... The Gateway is almost 120% incompatible with the Mac........

You're probably right about that.

If the Gateway used a Intel 945 motherboard and an ATI graphics card, there might have been a slight chance. Is there any EFI-based computer with a configuration similar to the iMac out there?

 

So, I guess this killed our last idea to get Windows XP working. No way to re-integrate the CSM; no way to flash another computer's firmware (with CSM included) onto the iMac; and replacing NTLDR on XP with Vista's bootloader doesn't work because Windows makes some BIOS calls during operation, ....

Anybody have some more ideas or do we have to wait for Vista to include full EFI, GPT and UGA support (and let WinxpOnMac's $10,000 go to charity)?

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Yes, it does. Talk to pretty much anyone in this forum, and they will tell you the same. Apple does not have any custom hardware in their Intel-iMac.

Please verify that what you post is true and communicate non-facts so that it does not sound like you take it for a fact and want to crush other facts with it (use e.g. I believe that..., I am pretty sure that...).

This quote is from ArsTechnica's (I trust 'em) in-depth look into the iMac Core Duo:

"Rumor has it that the iMac Core Duo uses a custom chipset designed by Intel. From looking at pictures of the chips, we were able to do some deduction from the chip numbers. The northbridge chip looks to be an 82945GM, which identifies it as the Mobile Intel 945GM Express chipset. According to the S-Spec number (SL8Z2), it's a standard Intel chipset and therefore not an Apple-specific variant. The southbridge appears to be an ICH7-M, which has support for a Trusted Computing module."

 

Also, would modifying the EFI make make it unable to boot Mac OS X?

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Also, would modifying the EFI make make it unable to boot Mac OS X?

Not necessarily. It depends how Mac OS X checks whether it is allowed to boot on the respective system. It may be doing so by checking for the TPM's serial number, checking the computer's serial number, or the EFI's version number (though this seems least likely as it could be changed).

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Well... looks like u obviously didnt.....ever tried to look deeply in the efi1_10_14_62 and EDK packages ?

 

:D

 

You're right; I completely bypassed the portion of the EDK that contains these, and in fact the SCT project has a bunch of binaries in it as well. My apologies for getting worked up over the wrong issue.

 

Attached u can find the legacyboot.efi file that "dont exist !" according to you....

 

It would have helped if you'd supplied the location rather than the file, but that's no matter.

 

Unfortunately, the file in question is not a driver or a module, it's a vanilla EFI application that invokes the LegacyBoot protocol (you can infer this from reading the Unicode strings in the data segment).

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Yes, it does. Talk to pretty much anyone in this forum, and they will tell you the same. Apple does not have any custom hardware in their Intel-iMac.

 

In the context of platform firmware, "using standard Intel chips" does not mean the same thing as "using a standard Intel motherboard".

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I don't know for sure that this is so, but I believe TianoCore's EFI package has a legacyboot.efi file.

 

If someone has access to one of those Gateway PCs: could you please extract all EFI modules and post a list of them?

Could you please post a list of these EFI modules in the forum?

I don't have the list handy, unfortunately. There's a lot of stuff for console initialization and all that jazz.

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