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Leopard = Vista?


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Alright, hear me out here....


We have two operating systems, Mac OS 10.4 (Tiger), and Windows XP. Both of these OSs were standards for their respective platforms. Both OSs had delayed successors. Vista was delayed by problems creating it. Leo was delayed by the iPhone, and Tiger was kept around longer because of the Intel transition.


One one hand, we have a new OS for Windows. It has much needed updates in security. It packs a lot of new features (some of them needed, many of them rip offs, but they're there). It wasn't perfect. It was rushed by MS because they felt it needed to be out as soon as it could. It even went through one the biggest public betas I've seen.


On the other hand, we have a new OS for Mac. It has new features that really up the ante for MS and Linux. It has a lot of new features (some of them amazing like quick look, some of them rip offs like Spaces). It's far from perfect. It has a self-imposed deadline.


Neither of them were/are ready for their initial release.



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I think when Leopard is released it will have far more polish than it does now. Obviously there will be problems but I don't think they'll be nearly as bad as the problems with Vista. I think Spaces is a good idea to integrate into the operating system and I'm glad they took the idea from Linux.

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In terms of interface changes, Leopard seems more "evolutionary" than "revolutionary". On the other hand, I really like Tiger's (10.4) interface so "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Coverflow is a nice addition to the Finder along with Stacks.


Time Machine looks absolutely beautiful in terms of form and function. As for the delay, I feel it is OK as long as the product is solid after it ships.


As for Vista, the interface changes is more dramatic compared to its predecessor (Windows XP).


--danyel :(

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so "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".


That's my whole point on both.


Each company created a standard with their respective OSs. In my opinion, they should have worked on their standardized OSs instead of creating new ones.

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Vista and its drivers were NOT ready for prime time when it was released. Leopard might be the same way. After all, it is an Apple product, which generally have quite a few bugs until a few updates later. However, Vista is getting better, and I'm sure Leopard will too if it does have some issues.

Regarding features, I think Vista was more of a major release. Most of the things that are new in it don't stand out, such as the new Per-app audio mixer and the better networking. Leopard I see two things, Backup and Multiple desktops. The finder seems to be more of a layout change then anything else, besides quick look which is pretty cool. And of course there are little tweaks everywhere just like you see in any OS.

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Yeah...that's what I'm getting at.


I'm surprised that with as big of a public beta as Vista was, it wasn't as ready as it should have been....


Then again, I'm sure we'll see a slew of issues where Leo won't work correctly with older machines....

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I think that any machine that Apple said that it would work with, it will work with. This means that any machine with an 867MHz G4 processor will run fine on Leopard. My old 1GHz iBook still runs Leopard just fine.

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I still have a feeling that Apple might change the minimum requirements to 1GHz G4 or something like that. Anything less than 1GHz will either run Leopard too slowly or won't run Leopard at all.



Vista's minimum is 800mhz.

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Apple is not MS. Leopard's latest build has very less bugs. Though microsoft released CTP every month, they failed to understand the needs & how far it fits with people. I really dont understand what is the need of a basic back, when it can't perform more than 2or 3 tasks. When a OS is available for free. Sounds stupid isn't it.


I have seen Spaces in old unix boxes, they are effective. I wish leopard is very stable when it is out.

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I haven't had a chance to use Leopard yet, but i'm sure that there will be some bugs when it is released. Once the masses start using it they will find new bugs that they didn't while testing. I'm sure there will be some apps that won't run correctly, just like when Vista came out and and just like when XP first came out. Granted the bugs maynot be as big but they will be there. I run Vista on 2 work Laptops and I think it great. It's been very stable and i haven't had any problems yet, just one or 2 apps that aren't supported.


I'm excited to see Time Machine, from the previews it reminds me of Microsoft Volume Shadow Services where you can store upto 64 versions of a file for restoration.



@Ayanami I see what you mean, why don't they slowly evolve the OSs. I guess for lack of a better term they should release "Service Packs" or "Feature Packs" that will add these new features and they can keep securing the OS and making it better. Its almost like they take one step forward with the possibility of taking two steps back.

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I think that would make sense, the OSs would just get better, more secure, more stream lined. They would introduce new features slowly so they there would hopefully be less bugs and and would give them more time to maximize each feature set.


But if they did that, something tells me their marketing department would be very angry lol

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Once you start changing so much of the framework behind an OS, it only makes sense to make it a whole new version. They added Core Animation, made the whole OS 64-bit, improved multi-core support, Time Machine, new versions of Mail, Safari, iCal, iChat, Finder, etc. Once you start adding so much a download just isn't practical, and that's a lot of bandwidth to pay for everyone to download.

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It really depends on how important interface is to each person. Because let's get right down to it, that's what both updates are. You could stay with the "if it ain't broke..." business model, but that's not profitable and it doesn't always please a lot of people. Vista was a much-needed graphical update to the childish-looking XP. Leopard was a much-needed graphical update to the outdated brushed metal and overzealous scanlines. Sure both OSes provided "new" features, but most were just readily-available technologies that were integrated into the operating system. These updates make life slightly easier and increase efficiency a bit, but again there's nothing groundbreaking here. Overall, it comes down to whether you're willing to stick with an old, outdated interface, or whether you prefer an updated interface with a few new features. Personally, I am an interface whore, and Vista and Leopard are amazing for me. Surprisingly, Time Machine is absolutely great and Quick Look is very convenient, so I get these nice little efficiencies with the updated interface, a win-win for me :)

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I wouldn't say that Leopard added lots of "readily available" technologies. The changes to spotlight, the addition of quickook, and the coming age of animated UIs are f'ing revolutions in this industry. Even the way that Time Machine works is a really innovative approach to backups.

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Honestly, I don't think vista was a "mistake".


The only way MS was going to convince some manufacturers and developers to release Vista drivers/applications was to release it. Period. Look at all the printer companies. They all had plenty of time, but waited until the last minute to scramble together some hacky drivers; leading to a bunch of printers that had no vista support out of box.


If MS made a mistake, it was making vista too backwards compatible. The massive changes in the security system were too severe for many programs, creating odd and often destructive results when people forcefully installed some of their old software (epson drivers broke IE, Kaspersky AV causes your HDD to fill itself with error reports in under 10 minutes, etc). This could have been avoided by simply forcing vendors to compile in a change to their binaries that flags them "vista ready", otherwise warning the user that the program isn't vista ready, and automagically running it in compatibility mode. However, this would have probably further agitated the vista-bad-omg movement.


However, 10.5 is hardly "another Vista". A better example would be a "another Windows ME", but I'll make that call when I see it.

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You have to understand that incremental changes to Windows is something Microsoft has done for a while now. Vista being a major release is nothing new or frightening.

- Windows 95 - Major release

- Windows 95 OSR2 - minor update

- Windows NT 4 - Evolutionary

- Windows 98 - Interim release

- Windows ME - minor release


- Windows 2000 (5.0) - Major update, added improvements to stability, Active Directory (no need for Netware or other Directory services), Easier to deploy, DirectX support, security, support for laptops and so on.

- Windows XP (5.1) - Evolutionary update, merged the ease of use Windows 9x with stability of Windows 2000. Added improved functionality such as built in CD burning, working better with multimedia, visually attractive and inviting.


As for minor releases:

- Windows XP Media Center - 2002 - added TV functionality

- Windows XP Tablet PC - 2002 - added Tablet PC hand writing functionality

- Windows XP Media Center - 2003 - improvements MCE with support for more TV tuners and stability

- Windows XP SP2 - 2004 - Improved the operating systems security greatly, firewall improved and turned on by default, IE 6 SP2 with pop up blocker

- Windows XP MCE and Tablet PC 2005 - 2004 - improved stability, support more TV tuners, improved functionality for Tablet PCs

- Windows XP Professional x64 - 2005 - Added 64 bit computing for 64 processors, support for more than 4 GBs of RAM.


So, Microsoft has been incremental with releases and adding features to Windows over the years.


With Windows Vista, this is a release that is added fundamental changes to the system that will define Windows for the next 16 years. Functionality such as Windows Presentation, Communication Foundations. The new .NET framework. Windows defines how future applications for the Windows platform will be written. This cannot be done incrementally and requires critical changes to the OS and its various frameworks. In such cases it disrupts certain existing infrastructure in the system. This in result prepares existing users to prepare for the release because its a new version. Lets take a look at the new functionality in Vista, a lot of the features are based on the new plumbing and architecture which allows the developers to offer these features. Don't assume Microsoft could have disbanded and delivered them in incremental updates or Feature Packs:


Instant Search

Media Center

Windows Collaboration

Windows AERO Glass

Windows Photo Gallery

Bitlocker with Drive Encryption

Better file management and organization

Parental Controls

Windows DVD Maker

Windows Mobility Center

Way improved Speech recognition

Tablet and Touch Technology

Windows Backup and Windows Complete PC Backup

Memory diagnostics

Improved recovery tools

Better networking, connecting to Wi-Fi networks is breeze compared to XP

Faster and more stable sleep and resume.


Things like the Faster and more stable sleep and resume, required extensive changes to the kernel, another person mentioned per-app volume, thats a result of a completely re-written sound stack. So you don't get skips when doing intensive I/O task and listening to your music. A lot these changes and features can't simply be delivered over Windows or as a free download.


The same could be said for Apple, there has been no extensive changes to kernel since Mac OS 10.0 which was release in March of 2001, same year XP was RTMed (August 2001).


10.0 - New release started the transition from Classic to a modern, pre-emptive multi-tasking operating system

10.1 - Improved stability, added CD-Burning, iTunes support and third party developer support (Microsoft Office, Adobe, Macromedia)

10.2 - Improved functionality, features, better networking and Windows support, new applications and aesthetic changes to the UI, Inkwell, Quartz

10.3 - Incrimental changes to the system, better support for PowerMac G5s, improved performance and ended the transition from Classic for many users.

10.4 - Spotlight, updated applications, Intel support, 64 bit support through the command line, improved performance

10.5 - 64 bit everywhere, streamlined UI, updated built in applications, X-Code 3.0, Universal support, improved backup, Safari 3


Its just a necessary thing for developers such as Apple and Microsoft to have new releases that move not only users forward, but give third party developers and sign to move forward and innovate in new ways and probably can only be done through the disruptive changes these operating systems bring. Then again, Microsoft has done a fair amount of incremental improvements to the OS over years.

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I think Spaces is a good idea to integrate into the operating system and I'm glad they took the idea from Linux.
Not from Linux, from Unix dude...
The same could be said for Apple, there has been no extensive changes to kernel since Mac OS 10.0 which was release in March of 2001
No extensive changes to the kernel ?!

Rewritting the scheduler is not an extensive change?

Modifying the whole operating system (and heavily the kernel) for the dtrace integration is not an extensive change ?

Import the MAC framework in the kernel from trusted BSD is not an extensive change ?


Out of the kernel


Changing the way all unix daemons are launched is not an extensive change ?

Make the system to fit he UNIX certification is not an extensive change ?

Do you really know what you are talking about ? :angel:


It's not because there is no significant changes in the GUI from Tiger to Leopard that there is no 'extensive' changes in the background ...

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I cant name a single good thing about Vista, having been using it since early beta till retail. They change what was ok to bad. What was bad to worst. May be the only good thing about Vista is security. But with IE7 and SP3, XP is a lot more secure then the original XP without any SP.


However Leopard is not up to my expectation either. May be because people hype it too much. Having said that it is still a very good release with many improvement. And it looks even better by comparing to M$ release of Vista.

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Vista was, as described by one of the forummembers a complete rewrite of the Windows OS, they just released it too soon and therefore couldnt implement the promised functionalities that had to compete with OSX (winfs and others) Only the core of the system was rewritten and some stolen eyecandy was added. They didnt finish what they started = "damn we want to have an os as good and beautiful as Apple".


Apple on the other hand updated OSX in increments and Leopard isnt a rewrite of the OS, its just a needed bigger update with more functionalities and beatiful creative eyecandy. The core has remained the same.


So i dont think apple is making the same mistake as MS (if you didnt catch that in my little scrap above)





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i think ppl need to realize that just because leo took 2 years to be released instead of the normal 1 year apple cycle, it is not a major huge change like any of the windows releases. at the end of the day, it is still just a small update in the grand scheme of things, however i consider leopard to be one of the biggest OS releases from apple if you look a the back end (kernel/scheduler/bsd/services/64bit/libraries/etc).


the pretty stuff/changes that most ppl will look at is a new and unified theme, time machine/backup/spaces and some real nice speed.

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