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Education - Where are we going wrong?


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I was in class 3 weeks ago (a sociology Class) and a student worker came in to ask us a survey, she asked us various questions about the world (where Afghanistan is, where the PACIFIC OCEAN is, what percentage of the population of the US was poor, etc.). More than half the class failed this simple test. I have always had a bit of difficulty with school (mostly from not trying hard enough). I had no problem answering these basic questions. My question is: Is there something wrong when the educated can write 25 page essays with ease yet fail to understand where the Pacific ocean is?

 

Thoughts, concerns, etc.?

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That's a good question. I'd be hard-pressed to answer the question about poor. If poor is someone who lives under the poverty line, I'd imagine about 35-40% (Poverty line is 29k IIRC, average household is 45k).

 

A lot of people are incredibly ignorant. It's sad.

 

Everyone should have a basic level of competence to graduate highschool. In fact, if the GED were required to graduate highschool, only about 45% of all 12th graders would graduate.

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One of the issues of the Civil War was Education. The south had private schools, and private education. The north wanted to force the union government funded Public School System on the south. Other than taxes, this was one of the main points of the war.

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Private has more than its fair share of problems too, let's face it, if all schools were private right now, we'd have 1/3 of the population actually going to school, which would be even more disastrous.

 

 

I think that the problem lies in teaching style. It seems like people think that if the work is harder that that means one will learn more....

 

 

I couldn't disagree more with this, I think that if the teaching style was more focused on the material, rather than trying to trick you, or trying to make ones life difficult that we would be in a much better position.

 

Let's say for example, one is taking history 101, well then why doesn't the teacher make sure that the students understand the general concepts, rather than trying to trick them on the details, many of the details frankly don't matter. What kind of wood was the Brown Bess made out of? When was the date that explorers first came to the Americas, Who cares? Instead, questions such as Why was Caesar able to take power in Rome? That is a much more important question. What social strains led to the French Revolution? These general questions are far more important than nitty gritty detail questions.

 

But in my experience, community colleges have their act together and universities need to catch up, I am going to a University right now, and I have to say, I am not impressed, I am in retrospect quite impressed with my community college (I learned more, it was easier, it was cheaper - Win win win)

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Im agree with you killbot.

I think its the way that education has been given over the last decades thats is wrong , education now is based in: more hours at school ,study hard (wich is based in not to learn but to repeat more and go over and over again in a subject) .Thats not learning thats "to repeat" and it is very unusefull when it comes to think by your own or otherwise we should talk quoting "great mans" of the history when we talk.Because "they" teach us to know what others have thinked in the past but not to have thoughts of your own.

At least thats the way i see it.

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Im agree with you killbot.

I think its the way that education has been given over the last decades thats is wrong , education now is based in: more hours at school ,study hard (wich is based in not to learn but to repeat more and go over and over again in a subject) .Thats not learning thats "to repeat" and it is very unusefull when it comes to think by your own or otherwise we should talk quoting "great mans" of the history when we talk.Because "they" teach us to know what others have thinked in the past but not to have thoughts of your own.

At least thats the way i see it.

 

I completely agree. I also see a frightening trend toward highschool and college being "job training". I tel people I am getting a degree in Sociology, philosophy, and history, and that I am going into computers as my career, and they look at me like I'm a loser, or a misguided youth. But seriously, education isnt about job training, you can learn that in 3 months at your future job. Education is about learning how to think, providing a base on which you can build your future knowledge. I think many people have lost sight of that...and it makes me sad...

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The problem is monopolies.

 

I assume you're talking about America, and in America we have a government monopoly on education. People are taxed to pay for a public education system that has no incentive to excel. Why do Apple and Microsoft constantly go toe to toe on who's got a better OS? Each one has an incentive to outdo the other-- money and popularity. Take competition out of the picture and development stagnates. As a general rule, people will only do as good as they need to keep their jobs unless you give them a reason to do great.

 

DISCLAIMER: I know their are shining stars who like to do great just because they love what they do, however these people are very, very rare. Kudos to you people.

 

Schools aren't competing for popularity or money. The government gives them both. No, MORE money is not a solution either. Per-pupil spending has doubled (accounting for inflation) in the last thirty years. And most people can't afford to send their children to private schools so they're stuck with whatever the local state offering is.

 

There was an excellent short documentary on ABC a while back by John Stossel called "Stupid In America" that illustrates this point very clearly and gives a solution: attach the money to the children to use on whichever school their parents choose. This would force public schools to compete with private schools for students, and force them to constantly reevaulate themselves.

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Education - Where are we going wrong?

Well, from what I've experienced during my couple of years living and working in the US, there does not seem to be a strong focus and priority on education among the 'general' population. There also still seems to be a strong consensus of 'educate who can afford it' and 'I don't want my tax money to be spent on good public education for people I don't even know'. As long as there is a high tolerance for the proliferation of so many potential 'losers' it will remain exceedingly difficult to have education anchored in society as a basis for cultural, social and economic balance. In other words, as long as high quality education remains rooted in people's minds as a quasi-elitist concept instead of a means for defining collective cultural identity, it will be difficult to implement any convincing strategy to improve the situation.

 

I reckon it's in the best interest of every civilised country to keep their people educated.

 

Then again on the other hand, history has shown that uneducated people are generally easier to manipulate...

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Which is why their country usually always ends up getting destroyed.

If you're referring to physical destruction, I wouldn't assume a direct correlation short-term but well, in the long run, the risk is certainly higher...

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If you're referring to physical destruction, I wouldn't assume a direct correlation short-term but well, in the long run, the risk is certainly higher...

 

 

Oh I am sorry for not being clear, I always think in long term when I talk about these things, short term doesn't even enter into my mind heheh.

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I was in class 3 weeks ago (a sociology Class) and a student worker came in to ask us a survey, she asked us various questions about the world (where Afghanistan is, where the PACIFIC OCEAN is, what percentage of the population of the US was poor, etc.). More than half the class failed this simple test. I have always had a bit of difficulty with school (mostly from not trying hard enough). I had no problem answering these basic questions. My question is: Is there something wrong when the educated can write 25 page essays with ease yet fail to understand where the Pacific ocean is?

 

Thoughts, concerns, etc.?

 

In the civil war public education was force on the south after the end of the war. If it was up to me we would have private education.

You would simply be AMAZED that a 5 year old can answer those questions, and tell you every bordering state of every state in the US.

However, a 10 year old attending a public school couldn't answer those if he tried. He would be playing video games all day.

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In the civil war public education was force on the south after the end of the war. If it was up to me we would have private education.

You would simply be AMAZED that a 5 year old can answer those questions, and tell you every bordering state of every state in the US.

However, a 10 year old attending a public school couldn't answer those if he tried. He would be playing video games all day.

 

I was able to answer those questions as a 10 year old...but sadly...it wasn't because of school, it was because I had the internet and curiosity on my side heheh

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It's an excellent point for a number of reasons (if I do say so myself). If public school was disbanded tomorrow, what would happen? Assuming there are enough private schools to support the influx of students (there arent), you would have a situation where most students would be unable to afford to go to school. Private school costs at least as much to provide as public school and has less stringent standards of excellence as a whole. Now, granted, public school isnt all that good, but neither are low-rent religious schools (the vast majority of public schools), and those run between 4000 and 8000 a year. Private school for the average person just isnt a good idea. Unless you want the government to pay for it, and then it's an even worse idea.

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There is this huge problem with the education system (and this is coming from a teacher) in that the system itself tends to accept every "new" idea and wants to try it out. For instance, block scheduling failed miserably in Canada, yet the system in the US went ahead and did it, despite warnings this system has failed.

 

With that being said, there are several ideas that are good, like differentiated instruction (this is using several levels so students can show they understand the subject on their own level--some can't write an essay, but they are able to do a PowerPoint presentation on it).

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An alarming trend that I have been noticing, and again, this is not scientific in the slightest, just observations of the people around me. Some of the most intelligent, hard working people I know are either dropping out of college or just going through the motions (like me), while dumbasses are staying in college...I am just curious as to why, I have no idea...

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  • 3 weeks later...
I was in class 3 weeks ago (a sociology Class) and a student worker came in to ask us a survey, she asked us various questions about the world (where Afghanistan is, where the PACIFIC OCEAN is, what percentage of the population of the US was poor, etc.). More than half the class failed this simple test. I have always had a bit of difficulty with school (mostly from not trying hard enough). I had no problem answering these basic questions. My question is: Is there something wrong when the educated can write 25 page essays with ease yet fail to understand where the Pacific ocean is?

 

Thoughts, concerns, etc.?

 

I'm a New Zealander born-and-bred and being an island nation of only 4 million people, we make a point of expanding our horizons. I remember doing social studies projects in school about all sorts of countries and subjects. Sometimes when we had a new immigrant in our class, we did a project about their country. Consequently, I have a fairly good understanding of the world around me and outside our borders.

 

In response to your question, I can't say what's wrong because I personally haven't experienced the US school system. However, I have a cousin who studied in high school over there for a few years. He wanted to be a vet and he did well in science here in NZ. Unfortunately, he found that after a few years of US school science, he was well behind his peers in NZ. Consequently, he had to rethink his ambitions because he was basically back to square one. The thing is, he didn't KNOW he was slipping behind because everyone else around him was going the same speed.

 

To extrapolate my cousin's experience to US school pupils as a whole, it's no wonder that they don't know where the Pacific Ocean is when nobody else does either. Nor do they care.

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High school students are teenagers, and teenagers don't need school because they know everything! (:( - think they do)

 

Regardless of how we define, value, or determine the thoroughness of our education, I believe there is never a truly "wrong" way. One might say your behind, you might say they're ahead. Personally, I define "educated" as "socially aware." I don't care if someone doesn't know where Burma or Colombia is because that why maps were invented. Why try to waste valuable brain capacity familiarizing oneself with a globe when such a reference is available when it's needed? I value an individual's depth in thought, one who can truly understand politics and its ties to industry. Perhaps argue the role of technology in institutionalized discrimination or its role in the separations of class. People who can grasps generally abstract concepts like these (in my experiences) are good at taking in information in things more concrete, like physics.

 

I'm not going to lie; I attended DeAnza Community College and graduated from a California State University (San Jose). For those of you who don't know, niether are the most prestigous of school systems. Despite having what many people call a "sub-par" education as it fares against the output of Stanford, MIT, or UC Berkeley, I've still managed to successfully create and sustain a small development company. So either I'm an exception, or the true value of any education is dependent on the hands it lays in. I choose the latter. Just to give an example; My staff consists of two sales representatives. One doesn't have a degree, and another studied in Oxford. One can write an perfect composition, the other can sway a sale. Who makes more money? Who makes me more money? Who's educated? Who's taking better advantage their knowledge?

 

I find any institution of education to be largely bogus. In general, it creates like-minded people which I believe hinders creativity and various approaches to a given problem. I believe it's a reign of not only intellectual conformity, but social conformity giving in to the demand of today's largely automated business structure. I say this because in reality people who have completed their 4 year degrees are seldomly prepared for a real world position. This is why new grads are called "entry-level." What they have is "dependent" thought process that is easily moldable to cater to a company's specifics needs. You give any "uneducated" person 4 years time at any job, I can almost garuantee you that after 4 years, he'll/she'll will know what the **** he's/she's doing and be a valuable asset. Unfortunately, many are spared the chance due to todays readily available "educated" workforce.

 

I believe the success of any community is in the power of expliotation found in its members. This is why the United States carries itself the way we do. We're lower than many in education, but at the same time economically and militarily on top of everyone (at least for the time being). Hell, the most profitable industry in the U.S.A is financial services... the industry whos purpose is to take advantage of its customer's money.

 

(end rant)

 

Just a thought...

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Schools, public education is were we went wrong.

Seriously, the greatest peoples were taught by the parents, who were taught by their parents, etc.

Then, they set off with this knowledge, and learned everything from THEIR point of view, they learned what they needed to know, they learned about themselves.

 

Now, we herd our kids off like cows into some big building were someone teaches them the same freaking facts day in and day out, they teach them random stuff that 80% will never need to know (Math 12 anyone?) excpet to get into college and learn what they actually want to learn.

 

People now, instead of learning about themselves, learning what they need to know, learning what they want to know, are now taught the same thing as everyone else. They are taught useless {censored} about supposely "Great" people, who could just as easily be the biggest {censored}bag of them all.

 

I hate schools with a near passion, if I wasn't spending half my day in interesting classes (Entrepreurship, Photography, Digital Imaging etc) I'd have probably lost all hope by now. These days I sit in english with the book in front of me (That I fully read before the rest of my class got to act 2 in, The Crucible) listen to music, and jot down philosophical thoughts, and sit back and invision photos I want to take.

 

Schools breed ignorance, schools breed a "pack mentality", school breed exactly what the government wants.

 

Just my few cents.

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I'm a New Zealander born-and-bred and being an island nation of only 4 million people, we make a point of expanding our horizons. I remember doing social studies projects in school about all sorts of countries and subjects. Sometimes when we had a new immigrant in our class, we did a project about their country. Consequently, I have a fairly good understanding of the world around me and outside our borders.

 

In response to your question, I can't say what's wrong because I personally haven't experienced the US school system. However, I have a cousin who studied in high school over there for a few years. He wanted to be a vet and he did well in science here in NZ. Unfortunately, he found that after a few years of US school science, he was well behind his peers in NZ. Consequently, he had to rethink his ambitions because he was basically back to square one. The thing is, he didn't KNOW he was slipping behind because everyone else around him was going the same speed.

 

To extrapolate my cousin's experience to US school pupils as a whole, it's no wonder that they don't know where the Pacific Ocean is when nobody else does either. Nor do they care.

Interesting you mention it because I know a couple of stories from European students with very similar experiences in US schools.

On the other hand they also mentioned that when you're really bright in a certain domain (and lucky or wealthy enough to get in) you have more technical possibilities in certain US schools than elsewhere, for instance better equipped labs, better infrastucture etc. A prime example is MIT. Also the US peers and professors who are bright are supposedly bloody geniuses - at least I was told so. Then again, there seems to be a larger rift between those 'super nerds' and the average, more than elsewhere. The nerds are supposedly looked down upon and harrassed/bullied by their (sub)average peers more than anywhere else (which also says a bit about how much knowledge is valued).

 

Are good schools in NZ mostly public or private?

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Who makes more money? Who makes me more money?

It's actually quite scary if that's all what it all boils down to.

 

I don't have time right now to elaborate on that but I might get back on it. Just as a quick point, measuring the value of education on a scale of monetary "return on investment" alone is a very scary concept IMHO.

 

BTW there is no direct correlation between having a commercial sense/sales talent and education. Not even necessarily between sales talent and intelligence. In other words, there are at least as many educated people who know how to make money as there are uneducated.

 

One of my favourite Albert Einstein quotes:

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction.

 

I reckon education helps a lot to not become 'the fool'.

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Schools, public education is were we went wrong.

Seriously, the greatest peoples were taught by the parents, who were taught by their parents, etc.

Then, they set off with this knowledge, and learned everything from THEIR point of view, they learned what they needed to know, they learned about themselves.

 

Now, we herd our kids off like cows into some big building were someone teaches them the same freaking facts day in and day out, they teach them random stuff that 80% will never need to know (Math 12 anyone?) excpet to get into college and learn what they actually want to learn.

 

People now, instead of learning about themselves, learning what they need to know, learning what they want to know, are now taught the same thing as everyone else. They are taught useless {censored} about supposely "Great" people, who could just as easily be the biggest {censored}bag of them all.

 

I hate schools with a near passion, if I wasn't spending half my day in interesting classes (Entrepreurship, Photography, Digital Imaging etc) I'd have probably lost all hope by now. These days I sit in english with the book in front of me (That I fully read before the rest of my class got to act 2 in, The Crucible) listen to music, and jot down philosophical thoughts, and sit back and invision photos I want to take.

 

Schools breed ignorance, schools breed a "pack mentality", school breed exactly what the government wants.

 

Just my few cents.

 

Wow, that's harsh. I respectfully disagree (and this is coming from somebody that has a negative view of college [me]). If we got rid of schools, we would suddenly have 90% of the population that couldn't read, and we would be surrounded by even more idiots than is already the case. The problem is that the school hasn't changed its format since its inception, it is still about sitting in a class room where the teacher talks down to you and talks about things that you are expected to sit there and listen to.

 

However, if we changed the teaching style to meet today's needs I feel like much would be accomplished, if there were more interaction between student and teacher, rather than more riddilin prescriptions, we would be doing a lot better.

 

The teaching STYLE is the problem, we are focusing more on formal tests, multiple choice, etc. So we have a bunch of students remembering useless definitions and irrelevant, subjective facts. If teachers focused on general concepts rather than petty details then we would have much smarter people out there in the world. Just my opinion anyway ;)

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From my perspective, the focus of the schooling system has been all wrong for decades now. Look at it. With the increased establishment of tenure, and the obviously failing public schools (in many degrees) there is more security for the teacher than there is for the student. I can guarantee you that it is 10 times easier to drop out of High School than it is for a tenured teacher to get fired. For a system that's supposedly focused on the student, the teacher is receiving a hell of a lot more benefits than they should.

 

Personally, I think we need to revamp the system entirely. Obviously, the cirriculum needs some sort of changes, but the system itself needs some shifts as well. Personally, I believe in the entire removal of the tenure system for teachers. Follow that with the voucher system of public education. This would essentially turn public schools into individual institutions, each competing for your tax voucher. With competition increasing, the level of education would have to increase in schools or they'd be shut down by pure economic necessity. With the removal of tenure, inefficient employees can be jettisoned, and good teachers can actually get what they're worth, monetarily speaking.

 

Without localized tenure, they have nothing stopping them from leaving one school for another, so increased wages become the new security of choice. In doing this, we kill three birds with one stone. We increase the quality of education, eliminated unnecessary employees, and pay good teachers good money.

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