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trav1085

Mac OS X 10.5 x86?

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I'm just wondering if Mac OS 10.5 for x86 is going to be released when it officialy releases from Apple. I know nobody know for sure but do you think it will happen? I'm wondering myself...

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No
Of course it will, but it won't work on your Hackintoshes without severe patching. It'll work just fine on official Apple products, of course, though.

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ahhhh i would like to think that a company would be able to fully protect their product. but in all reailty, it will never happen. where theres a will, theres a way. not saying that it will happen day2 after release, but eventually. :D

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I don't think it will work on our hackintosh. We are already having problems with 10.4.8 update!!

The only way it might work will be if we hack a newer kernel (and maybe the macefix86 project accomplishes thier target [mac efi runtime environment for our normal bios computers])

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if it can be built by man, it can be broken by man.

 

for every clever engineer apple has to protect its OS, there will be a clever hacker determined to break it. all it takes is time.

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They said the same thing about 10.4.x. Every, and I mean every kernel has been hacked. It will get hacked in 10.5 just a matter of time. The 10.4.8 hacked worked fine for me, everything works.

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Every, and I mean every kernel has been hacked.

No, we are still operating with the hacked 10.4.4 kernel. All of the current updates have to delete some files which don't work and those files are replaced with older versions. The kernel is one of those.

 

Neither of the 10.4.8 updates use ANY of the 10.4.8 kexts. And Rosetta from 10.4.8 had to be deleted. The one from 10.4.7 is being used. Hopefully, this is temporary. Also, the new multithreaded OpenGL had to be deleted from the 10.4.8 updates.

 

There are ongoing efforts to hack the 10.4.5 kernel. It is a difficult nut to crack and it hasn't been done successfully. The 10.4.7 kernel is even harder.

 

The 10.5 kernel is even more different than the 10.4.7 kernel.

 

I personally see the OSX updates moving farther and farther ahead while the efforts to hack them are lagging farther and farther behind.

 

We may run something we call 10.5, but it will have so many elements of 10.4.x in it that it will be 10.5 in name only.

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kinda like our old 10.4.1 to 10.4.3 userland patch?

(had to throw that one in there its almost a classic now. ;))

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so what are the barriers holding us back from installing leopard on a regular x86 pc? why is efi emulation required? why can't we just bypass it using a different bootloader like we did with tiger?

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i think the answer to that is that we HAD another bootloader, courtesy of darwin and the developer preview kit, which was compatible with BIOS-based machines.

 

we have no such thing for Leopard.

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No, we are still operating with the hacked 10.4.4 kernel. All of the current updates have to delete some files which don't work and those files are replaced with older versions. The kernel is one of those.

 

Neither of the 10.4.8 updates use ANY of the 10.4.8 kexts. And Rosetta from 10.4.8 had to be deleted. The one from 10.4.7 is being used. Hopefully, this is temporary. Also, the new multithreaded OpenGL had to be deleted from the 10.4.8 updates.

 

There are ongoing efforts to hack the 10.4.5 kernel. It is a difficult nut to crack and it hasn't been done successfully. The 10.4.7 kernel is even harder.

 

The 10.5 kernel is even more different than the 10.4.7 kernel.

 

I personally see the OSX updates moving farther and farther ahead while the efforts to hack them are lagging farther and farther behind.

 

We may run something we call 10.5, but it will have so many elements of 10.4.x in it that it will be 10.5 in name only.

 

Apple has had all of Tiger to try and keep us out. This is exactly what they want, no mac on machines that aren't theirs. When 10.5 is hacked and we can do what we want, like 10.4, it will be to are own demise. That will just push them to build 10.6 to be even harder to crack :2cents: Tiger came when we had just started to hack it out and now 10.5 is on the horizon with stuff left to finish in 10.4. At that pace it will be 10.7 before 10.5 is cracked :thumbsdown_anim:

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what makes the darwin bootloader compatible with Bios-based machines and incompatible with efi-based machines?

and why is efi emulation required, what has efi got to do with booting os x? why can't we just bypass it?

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what makes the darwin bootloader compatible with Bios-based machines and incompatible with efi-based machines?

and why is efi emulation required, what has efi got to do with booting os x? why can't we just bypass it?

 

Booting is just one of the things that depends on EFI. There are many other things that depend on EFI like device drivers.

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Just my :) , I think development might get a bit accelerated if we cut our losses and simply said if your motherboard doesn't support EFI then frankly you are SOL. If Roga and his brethern concentrated on simply "flashing" the Mac EFI environment onto say an Intel 945 board, we might be able to make quicker work on the kernel.

Maybe I am wrong here and the EFI on BIOS project is a necessary part of the eventual hackintosh EFI implementation, but if it is not it seems that his group are wasting a lot of time and resources simply so the folks with older non-EFI hardware can be kept on par with the rest of us. While trust me I feel for those folks (still running the red-headed step child that is the ATI x200 chipset), I think it is much more important for us to play catch up and work on getting the 10.4.5+ kernels working (which EFI plays a huge part in).

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Well, I am thinking Trav is asking wether it's going to be released from apple, and in that case, RichardFanning has the best answer here.

 

However-I agree with Munky-

if it can be built by man, it can be broken by man.

 

That will always be the case, like it or not, Jobs. If you don't want people running your OS on non-first-party systems, you shouldn't have moved to intel. That was your choice. Because everybody's first thought is going to be "can I run this on my computer" and people are going to say "yes."

 

If Apple was smart, they would make it uncrackable, like Logic Pro. Logic Pro just seems to not be able to crack, because of the dongle. Apple doesn't need a "dongle" for Leopard, just include it in the new Apple systems.

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@errandwolf -

i sort of agree. i think that this "efi on bios motherboards" stuff has slowed the osx86 leopard process down, but i think there are a lot more people with bios motherboards than efi motherboards so it would be pointless hacking 10.5 just for the efi ppl... plus, people aren't just going to go out and buy a whole new hackintosh mobo after they have already built one that is running tiger perfectly. we should find a way of making leopard bootable on bios computers and work on hacking the kernel at the same time.

 

@ahmad -

we can't just use the drivers we are using now and forget about efi loading and just patch the kernel?

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IMO, a Boot Loader shud be used like that of the BCD which is used by Microsoft for Windows Vista..

and the EFI calls shud be mapped thru that Loader from the EFI shell...i mean the image of the EFI firmware that Apple uses...

also those info shud be stored in some space reserved for this stuff which shud be created..on the HDD itself..to store the loader and the EFI image...

 

PS: Dont take it offensively..but these r my opinion...i might be wrong...but still..

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Dragon, I somewhat agree with your comments. People with legacy (BIOS) mobo's most likely will not go out and buy a new mobo just to run 10.5....so keep running 10.4. I think as time progresses and the Core CPU's go down in price people will need to upgrade their mobo's anyway. I mean I have what is considered the ideal board (Intel 945), but even I can not run a Core CPU. Bottom line is these boards are fairly cheap ($100-$150) and let's face it 10.5 will likely require some of the power from the Core CPU's. Over the next year or so as people upgrade most boards (at least from Intel) will have the EFI built in.

 

I think we are going to start seeing economy of scale on the Intel end just like we have seen on PPC's. Just about every G3/4/5 out there can run some version of OS X. That said though, you don't see many beige G3's running 10.4 but many are out there running 10.2 very happily. I think we will start seeing the same thing with hackintoshes. Those with older legacy hardware (BIOS based) will keep running 10.4 and be perfectly happy. But I really think to run 10.5 you are going to need an EFI equipped mobo.

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so your saying let the bootloader handle all of the efi calls and store the efi image on the harddrive?

 

errandwolf, you are assuming that efi will replace the bios? what if it doesn't? and what about the amd users? if efi is for intel motherboards then that would mean that it will be impossible to get leopard working on a non intel motherboard?

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so your saying let the bootloader handle all of the efi calls and store the efi image on the harddrive?

 

errandwolf, you are assuming that efi will replace the bios? what if it doesn't? and what about the amd users? if efi is for intel motherboards then that would mean that it will be impossible to get leopard working on a non intel motherboard?

I am not assuming, EFI HAS replaced BIOS on the actual Intel Macs. Current line Intel boards (945, 946, 965, 975) all use EFI w/ a legacy BIOS layer so it can work with current OS'. This will be phased out over the next few years and only EFI will remain. It is my understanding that Vista also works much better with EFI based boards rather then BIOS base.

 

I am not too familiar on how EFI and AMD interoperate, but I believe just like the SSE2/3 instruction code set you will see their own implementation of the EFI framework.

 

As things stand, you are 100% right. Getting 10.5 to work on non-Intel boards (or clones with EFI, think Gigabyte and a few other have rolled them out) is about impossible.

 

Let me make something clear. The only reason their currently IS a hackintosh community was because Apple released their Development systems without full EFI implementation. We have ALL been using bits and pieces from that original system. That is why no one has been able to get any kernel higher then 10.4.4 working. Everything beyond 10.4.4 requires EFI and a host of features that go along with it.

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Guest goodtime

It sounds like alot of work to get 10.5 running. I am seriously considering in throwing in the Hackintosh bit and eventually just get a Mac Pro. :thumbsdown_anim:

 

Many people have asked me to build them a Hacktintosh. My response to them is that a Hackintosh is like fixing up a really old car and you have to enjoy working under the hood when software updates comes up. I like it and it is a challenge, but I wouldn't want a normal Macintosh user to have a Hackintosh system in their hands. It's a support nightmare. I recommend to anyone who wants a Mac to buy a Mac. That's where I'll be headed once all my sh*t is paid off. I might mess around with 10.5 is a crack does become available, but I'd still would rather spend my future Mac dollars on a Mac Pro.

 

I just hope Apple doesn't get too greedy on their future systems and don't sell current Mac Pro users down the river when newer technology comes out.

 

GT

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osx86 project is about running os x on regular pcs. EFI is just a restriction that is turning ordinary PCs BACK into real macs.

apple WAS a hardware company and made the *mistake* of switching to intel processors and are now using efi to make their hardware exclusive again. slowly mac will be adding more restrictions to their motherboards until they have a completely "apple" board. also, all of the people who will buy an efi board just to run leopard, why don't they just BUY A MAC. the aim of osx86 is to get os x working on a standard computer. atm most computers are bios-based.

 

just my opinion,

Dragon

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