I have yet to meet an individual who has actually purchased Adobe Photoshop. Why is that?

Today’s Great Debate focuses on the question of software piracy in all its various forms. Is it wrong? Is it analogous to stealing physical goods?

Many people claim that piracy is acceptable and, in some cases, ethical. I know of one Mac developer who has frequently been accused of stealing from open source projects. Is it ethical to steal from an (alleged) thief? What about Microsoft? Why is it that so few people buy copies of Windows? Is it a problem with the user or the product?

Others claim that software piracy is just like any other forms of stealing - it’s theft. Those who shoplift are the same as those who take from the latest Serial Box. Is stealing 1’s and 0’s the same as stealing a physical product? How does piracy affect developers?

Some don't even think about it any more. For them, piracy is the only way to get software.

What say you?

There is one other class of piracy as well : piracy of software that can no longer be bought, even if you want to. I'm referring to older versions of software that a user might prefer, but can no longer purchase because the developer no longer sells it or is no longer in business. Where do you (and other here) stand on that?

I think the main thing is just that its fast, easy and cheap. I have just got my new MacBook and I have to say I am in the process of filling it up with apps and Piracy is just plain tempting! But, ethics aside, why pay for something when you can get it for free!!
I dont support it and I dont do it often (I cant say I never do it), but it is very tempting.
One thing I always support however is small Shareware software/freeware developers - Donate people!!

Here's what i have to say, and by no means do i declare it ethical. I have never, will never, and hope no one else here shoplifts from stores. I do find it a lot worse to steal physically from stores for a couple reasons, which i don't have time to explain now. I find that stealing via torrent or whatever else is not exactly going out of your way and it is too tempting to pass up. Stealing in general is not right but I'd much rather be known as an internet pirate than a office max thief or something to that idea. As a young person without a job i do believe there is a bigger temtation to do this. I have told myself that once i have an actual full time job i will begin to stop piracy all together. All in all i don't feel good about torrenting stuff but there arent a whole lot of other options. It's hard to take a stance on something you disagree with but go ahead and do it.

But i do agree with small shareware stuff like dtm said.

EDIT: I do know one person who has bought CS2 and i personally have bought Adpbe Elements.

I'm less torn than others, but there is a little tear. I dislike it period and wish it just wouldn't happen. There are many kinds of software piracy (and this came from Micrososft's pages):

End-User Copying: When users copy software without appropriate licensing for each copy. I think we've all been guilty of this at some time or another. Most of the time, though, companies don't want to try and find someone who made a copy for the desktop and one for the laptop (it's only when you install like 23895670245 copies that someone will find you). This is one of the biggest arguments that will present itself here in terms of how much is really tolerable to the software industry and to end users.

Hard-Disk Loading: Practiced by dishonest computer system builders who sell PCs with illicit software preinstalled. Dealers use one legally acquired copy illegally for installation on many machines. Much worse than End-User, and I think we can all agree this shouldn't be tolerated.

Counterfeiting: Software piracy on a grand scale, in which software and its packaging is illegally duplicated, often by organized crime rings, then redistributed as supposedly legal products. Again, bad bad bad, and I think we can all agree on this one too.

Online: This form of piracy occurs when copyrighted software is downloaded by a user connected via a modem to the Internet without the express permission of the copyright owner. This would cover warez sites also, and it presents itself with a problem also. As we all know full screen in QuickTime is only available as a Pro ($29.95) option. Most users only want that one feature, as video editing is done in iMovie or Final Cut. Why pay for just one feature when poor, innocent Dawn M. Fredette gave away her QuickTime Pro serial number for everyone to use? This is especially sticky when you're only using one feature of said software.

License Misuse: Software distributed under special discount licenses, either to high-volume customers, computer manufacturers, or academic institutions, that is then redistributed to others who do not hold or qualify for these licenses. This one has a lot of subsets and is well opened to debate also.

I resent that! I purchased it for work

Unfortunately... I admit that I have fallen down the cracks of piracy on occasion. Mostly without knowing it, but a few times I knew what I was doing. Here's somthing to mull over. Just think about how many people are burning in hell over pirated software and software licences. Well? Thats why I try to stick with open-source alternatives as much as possible.

I'm not perfect by any means though... EVERYONE deserves payment for their wares whether they be intellectual or physical property of the author.



Guru

It would be terribly hypocritical of me to make any sort of stand against software piracy, given the forums I frequent and the actions I take. However, I have paid for two excellent pieces of software, Path Finder and OmniWeb, not because I couldn't pirate them, but because I enjoy using them so much that I had to give thanks. I really wish to extrapolate more and give reasons for anything I've done, but it's quite difficult to type without the use of my left hand.

I pirate software because I simply can't afford half of the stuff out there. If it's a single person who's asking for something like $5 for their handy utility, I've got no problem paying for it.
Companies claim that when people pirate their software they're losing money, because they reason that those people would have otherwise bought the software. The reality is this simply isn't true. People don't pirate Photoshop so they don't have to buy it, they pirate it because they can't buy it. People just don't have the cash lying around to put down $700. I do, however, have a problem with people pirating just to be cheap, assuming that they can afford the software.
I should note that I'm against stealing. However, my definition of stealing doesn't include software piracy, because of my above reasons. I see stealing as taking from one party and giving to another. People see this as wrong because it's taking from the first party; they no longer have it. This isn't the case with software piracy--the first party still keeps the original, but the second party gets it as well. And, again, they're HARDLY losing potential sales, as I said.
If you could magically clone your brand new car and give one to your best friend, wouldn't everybody do it?

well... i own photoshop legit, but like alot of the keys i distribute to/from friends, and torrents/warez is fun too, its just more convenient for me to do that then to drive to a store...

I buy games to support the coders (and they are cheap), but do infrequently torrent apps because they are so expensive (geared to industry). I tend to torrent tv shows and books/audio reqularly.

Incidentally try adobe darkroom in windows, its a free beta download, awesome (so far!)

well really everything has already been said, I don't do it to be cheap, its just not having the cash.

I support the little developers, even if its freeware, if they have got a donation button, i will most likely use it if i use there app enough. But there is no way I could afford to shell out $700 for a peace of software, $30 is my limit really.

Hi;

There are several ways to look at this matter, and this is mine.

I did at part of my life do it, but that was when I was a student, I can't afford to buy the software I wanted and I had to gain the knowledge, I don't know how to crack a software and go into the code to override registration information or generate a key, the DARK SIDE of the computer has it's charm, BUT, I was always busy learning or working to pay the bills.

In my current Job, I learned allot about what are the benefits of buying a legal copy, including support, and taking part in having a better next version of the software you use, since it's your favored software.

But really, let's look at it this way, people use pirated software because they are a free copy of a good programmes, and this is harmful for them, and they don't realize it, by doing so, they are eliminating the necessity, and this will not push other companies or talented programmers to create alternatives, these that can be either in lower price, OR even free, this is how I see the piracy harming people.

Companies they know people use pirated copies of their product, and they are happy with it, actually, I bet that they supply hints about how to do it, this is a marketing strategy, let people get used to our product, and they will buy it when we realse one and delay the cracks , yes this is true for allot of people.

Is this good or bad? well, hay, they want you to use their product, this is their right, they spent money and time building this, and they want you to buy it, it's you who used piracy, eliminated the necessity, and created the monopoly, and increased the price, it's your fault, and they are right, we did do this to ourselves.

I'm switching to Mac, after a BIG disappointment trying to switch to Linux (from bigger disappointments in windows, or so I wish to think ), So I'm checking the list of software that I will be using, and it turn out that I'm going to spend some money on this, but the good news is, I'm going to spend money on software that will get me money, and I'm going to use an OS that has almost all the essential stuff (still checking ) that I used to pay or ..., and they are free

Long post, Sorry for that, it's just another boring day in the office, the good news is that alternatives for some are coming, which means lower price in the future (hopefully for those who don't switch).

Why should one feel guilty when he "pirates" his own OEM copy of Windows XP to run it on his new shiny Macbook? As long as I know each OEM copy of Windows is legally bound to the system you bought it with, but why suold one pay for the same thing over and over again just because he decided to change the hardware it runs on?

Think of the difference in pricing between the various versions of Windows or Microsoft Office. Isn't that plain stolen money, considering that probably no real "different versions" exist until the developement process is almost over? Don't you feel you have the RIGHT to obtain the latest version of a particular software without paying for it, expecially when the only differences are bug corrections? Why should one pay an extra to have an error free app? If I buy something I expect it to work just as it is advertised to and in the majority of cases I know I can return it and have it changed with something functional if it isn't working out of the box. With software you often have to pay if you want buggy software to become functional... Doesn't it make you feel robbed of your money?

Software should be licensed on a per user basis not a per machine basis. If you are not using the software at the same time you should be allowed to install on as many PC's as you like.
Also tying a license to a specific computer in the case of OEM licenses is wholely unfair. There is no justification for it - if i sell my old pc why shouldn't i be allowed to remove XP from it and install on my new PC.
License agreements are far too restrictive - i mean you wouldn't buy cd on the basis that you could only listen to it in your house - if you want to listen in the car or on your MP3 you need to buy another copy. Nor do you get some discount DVD's when you buy your DVD player to be told you can only use those DVD's in that player. Software Licensing is just one big money spinner.

Im happy with it, im not gonna stop as i wont get caught (wifi).

Maybe if i had more oeny i would buy software, but as im a poor kid, not today.

You can split it up into two parts: Stealing from software companies that turn over millions, if not billions each year. Stealing from software companies (or authors) that are lucky to turn over $100 in a year.

Obviously stealing from the first lot is great. Do it all the time. Everyday. And encourage everyone you know to do it as well. Burn this software onto CD's and DVD's and distribute it to all of your friends. It is your duty as a software pirate to share this software.

Stealing from the later is kind of nasty. These guys charge like $10, $20 for software, that often times is really quite ingenious. Don't steal from these people, wait until their companies become massive, then steal from 'em.

Not to say that I don't. I steal everything, I'm a thief. But at least I know it's wrong, right?

I'm kind of the same with physical theft. Don't theive from your local newsagent, or corner store. But if you walk into a wallmart or whatever, bring you biggest jacket and get as much of their {censored} as you can - obviously you can actually get caught for physical stealing, unlike piracy (FOR WHICH YOU WILL NOT!!!), so I would only advise to those that are under 15, or very, very good at it.

Seriously, if you make a lot of money from a cerain piece of software (say... photoshop...) then you should pay for it. If your a home user, the software company should be making it free to you anyway. So theive away!!

Obviously I am a big believer in the distribution of wealth.

Right...

Yes if its cheap i'll buy it if its liek 2 K for photoshop, bah

I've always regarded piracy as an unofficial "try before you buy" none of the big packages would have their marketshare & reputation today without it. Just think: how many home users would have & know photoshop without an illicit copy?..

The line for me has always been commercial use. Once the program is being used to make money, some of that needs to go back into buying the software.

In the meantime, hobbyists have the choice of using a free package which may or may not be inferior to the commercial one, or using a "bogus" copy of a commercial package, which potentially gains the software company a skilled user in the employment market, the further spread of their reputation and, once the chips are down, their market share.

I don't know... this all seems too flakey to me. There are so many ways to violate licence agreements it's not even funny. I, for one, am for free enterprise. However, it seems that nobody puts themselves into the shoes of the programmers, though. Just think, how are the programmers going to make a living if they don't get paid for their work?



Guru

Here's how I put it...

1. Music- Don't care

I use iTunes though... I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

2. Games- Don't care

I do hope people realize the potential consequences of massive piracy which include no updates, no incentive to make another...

3. As a businessman, I will never support the piracy of industrial software for profit. However, I think it's perfectly acceptable to acquire these softwares (be it, Adobe, UGS, Logic Pro) with strict intentions to learn. In these fields, I think it's VERY safe to say that consumer-end market is minimal to begin with.

I think anyone in a computer based industry is familiar with the demands that candidates be familiar with software being used. Unfortunately, in here we use VERY little software worth acquiring a license for personal use.

Just to give an idea:
My marketer(s) use the entire Adobe suite, plus Final Cut/Keynote.
My engineer(s) use Pro/E Wildfire 3.0 or UGS NX4
My PCB designer(s) use Cadence plus some others...

Not exactly things you can go to the store and get......

For me I stand buy the try before you buy method, for the most part. For the last three years I've been working alongside a computer genius(well really an everything genius) but anyways, my line of work is in Technical Design(Theatre, Concerts, TV, etc..) and I'm a huge computer geek. So naturally there are some applications that are industry standard. Specifically, Cast's WYSIWYG, Vectorworks, AutoCAD. But I'm also a composer, journalist, and photographer. So I use CS2 and Finale. And being an ex-pc user(though I do dual boot alot still) I had to have microsoft office.

The first piece of software I ever pirated was Vectorworks 9, which was a few years old at the time, but I recieved it from the genius I reffered to, who had already recieved a pirated copy. Now this is one of the harder apps to crack, because it requires a dongle to start(or atleast it does now). Years went by, now they realesed a new version I needed(lost the copy of 9.0) so I looked on the popualar places and I found it. I tested it out and everything. even used it for a while(this was well I was on a OSx86 box btw), but then I got a real mac and decided that I liked the software enough to buy it. So I did, I bought the full educational package for $150. Same with Finale(though I only bought Allegro, because it's all I needed. I still haven't bought CS2 though, simply because I don't have the money, and I don't use it that much, but I will be buying lightroom once it's out of beta. I haven't bought WYSIWYG yet either because its $1000+ and it doesn't run on a mac(yet), but I still use my old copy.

On to microsoft, XP really made me mad, I may have installed my license of pro 25+(which was the limit before WGA was made bad) But guess what it was on 2 machines, and at different times, which is what the license says(yes I read it). So I didn't feel I should have to buy ANOTHER $300 copy of it, so I got a new copy. Same with MS office I paid for the student version for windows, I'm not shelling out another $200 to use it on my mac, its only installed on 1 computer. So I got a copy of that too.

Of course that's not the end of my priacy because I'm also a programmer, and I have the Ration Rose discs as well. IBM doesn't even advertise the price on those... And there's the Macromedia suite, and about 40 or so other apps and 4-5 games I play three times a year.

If I like and use a program, and the price isn't to far out of my budget(for a highschool kid, Vectorworks and Allegro were pushing it) then I will buy it. Hell I bought a mac after I fell in love with OSx86 didn't I.

I'm with Hagar on this (funny, I usually agree with Hagar...). Being able to test software without having to pay for it is very, very useful. If you use it for anything other than personal pleasure, you should pay for it.

There is an interesting article here on crytpo products, which is off-topic as far as piracy goes, but makes some very pertinent observations on software in general. I like the car analogy - you can fulfill your desire to buy a red car by looking at it before you buy it and making sure it's red. You have to guess at the manufacturer's claims that its fuel consumption is what you want, and you can't be sure until you've bought it, but at least you can test the claims after the sale. You probably will never know if the airbags work, and even if you are in an accident that deploys them, you won't be sure that they saved your life like they were supposed to since you may have survived for a dozen other reasons.

As the article says, software is like that car. You can buy a package that claims it does something, but find that it doesn't live up to those claims. You probably never know how well it does the job unless you have special equipment and skills to really test it. Does Photoshop produce better quality jpg files than Corel? Is Bestcrypt really secure? The question for me is "Do I want to spend $$$ on something just to have it sit on the shelf?"

I've downloaded pirated versions of many DVD authoring programs in an attempt to find one that does what I want in the way I want to do it. Most just haven't cut the mustard, and they were ditched. Many were not available as trials, and those that were often came crippled so you couldn't really try them properly. I found a product from a small company, at a sensible price, and I bought it. I don't feel bad that I used pirate software during the assessment.

One of the common justifications for piracy is that the user would never buy the package anyway, so the company hasn't lost anything. That holds fairly true in the case of the student with Photoshop who otherwise might have to settle for a cheap imitation. Where it falls down is the point at which the use becomes an everyday thing, or the output goes to other people. If you use something seriously, you should pay for it.

Like most things in life which are declared 'bad' by society, you can rationalise and justify endlessly. Piracy is wrong, but then, so is exceeding the speed limit - and I probably do that every day. It comes down to your own conscience and your view of the extent to which you are prepared to break the law. Generally we view the impact our actions will have on others. That doesn't change the reality that wrong is, well, just wrong.

Oh, and yes, I do have a genuine copy of Photoshop. Fortunately my company paid for it...

I own Photoshop, several versions too. All purchased as full EDU copies for my work at a University. Accademic copy is cheap, so why not?

I see piracy like this: If you are just messing with it, it's fine. If you are using it frequently you should pay for it, and if you are using it to make money for your company... then you should go straight to jail.

Ethics regarding piracy vary depending on the circumstances surrounding it's occurance. If I'm just some guy who wasn't going to buy it anyway, and it's a tinker toy once in a while (Painter IX for example) then I just consider it as a long trial version because that's how I use it anyway. Now if I start to use it more and begin to sell prints that I make with it then I will buy it, because I can't support a product that I'm not financially supporting myself.

I'm not working for free.. and neither are these programmers.

=)

im not sure if i have ever pirated something other than a few songs. i like to own my stuff, because i dont want to risk anything. i dont have a problem with piracy for personal use, but the people who pirate photoshop to use in business are assholes. i choose open source alternatives instead of getting the pro suites. Also, my dad has a bunch of copies of pro software for work so i might use some of his stuff.

i think microsoft can go straight to hell if they told me i could only install my (legal) copy of xp on one machine. thats just stupid. I bought the damn software, i own the damn software. they can't tell me what to do with it.

i have yet to pay for shareware because i havent found any that i truly needed. also, i dont have paypal or anything...
but yeah. i see no problem at all in pirating for personal use as long as its for learning how to use it. if you can buy it, you should.

Hrm,
Well Mash, Apparently theres only one reason that people don't "Buy" Adobe Photoshop and other said products is simply because they are too high in price. For real...paying $400-700 for software is outrageous. Just like OSx86 $140 for an OS is a hefty price to pay, but since its Apple and its "reliable." I "steal" programs that barely do the job that i want them too. Now "GOOD" programs like Lineform and REALbasic I did purchase legally, cost me $140 for both. Basically, it has its right and wrong times to do it. If you can resist try not to, but if you are really broke and have to make a logo that's awesome by next week By all means "Borrow"

For me...I couldn't pirate software. Just couldn't do it. My father's a programmer and so I grew up with respect for the long, hard hours programmers put into their work. Now I work in his office as a protocols author and seeing the guys who work under him go at it day after day, I'd just feel waaay too guilty pirating software because I know the effort that goes into it.

Just my 2 cents

I agree (at least partly) with a lot of previous posts, but the simple bottom line I personally follow and beleive in is:

* If you are testing it, just mucking about with it, eager to learn or simply having fun with it: You shouldn't pay the hundreds of £ or $ that most programs cost.

* If you use an app often enough or it is your primary app (eg. Office, or for me OmniGraffle), you have a moral obbligation to buy it. If you can afford it, pay for it.

* If you are using it as a productivity tool, that you are actually making money off (ie CS2 or Logic or whatever). You MUST pay for it, if not it is stealing! Not learning!!

* If you can afford it (ie shareware or donationware) and you use it regularly (ie Cocktail), you have a moral obbligation to pay, or at least contribute to it. Support independent creativity!

I am a programmer, and have been in the business for over 3 Years now... I don't feel that people that want to learn or experiment from my work are stealing, on the contrary... They make me kind of proud... guess you could call it peer recognition... BUT, If you are making money out of anything I have even helped create, you must pay... You have to pay for what you get, simple really...

Sorry for the ramble...

J

Throw in my thoughts here, not that they're all that much different than the others before me.

Music and Movies
I personally download the vast majority of these. I suggest everyone do the same. I want the RIAA and MPAA business model so trashed that the industry collapses and they have to face the reality of the 21st century. I do own over 1000 DVDs, all purchased legally (either new or used from a discount store). However, I do download pre-release movies because I'm a movie buff, and I'll probably buy it if it was at least half-way decent. Furthermore, being an audiophile, I've been invited to several private sites for the distribution of music content. Technically, this is piracy because the license on the music has not gone public-domain yet. However, the majority of the titles I'm downloading are out-of-print or otherwise un-attainable by ordinary means. So I think it's a bit short-sighted of the industry to make it illegal to get the content that was once available and is no longer available due to their poor estimation of demand.

Shareware and Freeware
As a general rule of thumb I support the authors of good shareware and freeware. I think their contributions to communities of enthusiasts (be it DVD users, or Home and Garden experts, or the next Emeril) are often overlooked and are stolen more often because of their easier (or non-existant) copy-protection schemes. This is a real shame, because these are the geniuses that can create free-form and without the support of an entire industry. Give them their due and let them take their projects to the next level.

Here's the back-half of my "general rule of thumb." If an independant author has a software title that is in "somewhat functional" state. That is to say some features work and others don't, or there's a timed release at which this feature will be available, then this feature is available at the next release, then I feel the author shouldn't be asking $50 or more for the software. I understand his/her right to ask whatever he/she wants for the code, as it is a product born of their own creativity. Yet, to ask everyday people to contribute a figure that is close to average retail price for many software titles is unjustified. Deliver all the pieces first, then maybe you can command the larger figure.

Industry Standard Apps
These are your photoshop, CAD, professional Database, etc. The number one problem is the "student discount" programs. Generally, the student prices are not that great when compared to the discount for other programs. The companies should understand the benefit of getting students involved with their software at an early age (since they'll be used to the software, they'll be more apt to use it in their careers, and more apt to ask their managers to buy the software for their businesses). It's really simple, give the software at very cheap prices to students who can verify their status. As for people who want personal use licenses at discount rates. I can see the industry point of view. It's very difficult to get people to buy business class licenses when there is a personal use license available. It's also harder to monitor these people to ensure they're using the correct version for their tasks. I say, call a spade a spade and either pony up for the business license, or don't use it.

Here is my problem with software that is say $400. You spend that amount in only get $20 worth of the software. I think pay per use would be better. For every minute it is say $1. After you reach the retail value of the product you own it.

As for the Second post. I think any software that has been discontinued should go into Public Domain, pending there are no other owners. For example a classic game called "Lode Runner" came out by Broderbund. You can't buy it anymore. However the creator is still around and still owns rights to the game, at least the trademark.

It seems there is a general consensus here -

* A lot of commercial software, aimed at big companies wth deep pockets, is overpriced for the average home user;

* Mostly people don't want to steal software, but feel justified if the price is ridiculous, they will make only personal use of it and the big company who produces it probably won't suffer;

* We support the small software houses and individual developers where we can reasonably afford to do so, and we will buy software which has given us real value or pleasure, even when we could pirate it.

Actually there's nothing new in the above, and a plea for software houses to take note would fall on chronically deaf ears. Adobe will always overprice Photoshop, because they know that large publishing companies can and do afford the $$$ asked. They make enough money this way not to have to worry too much about the home pirate, and they do sell 'Elements' at a lower price - and bundled 'light' versions have been around for years, free with various hardware. Their educational prices are aimed at institutions which generally can afford the goods.

Before ending this post, I will take a swipe at Sony for their unbelievable waste of time, money and consumer confidence in their protection schemes. ARccoSS protection on Sony DVDs infuriates me - my 5-year old Toshiba player can't play newer Sony DVDs at all because of this. Plus, I think region coding is a deplorable attempt to make money out of people like me who spend time in two regions and would theoretically have to buy two copies of everything just to watch in each place. I can overcome region coding and ARccoSS with AnyDVD (highly recommended) - and get rid of trailers and FBI warnings too - but that makes me a pirate. And then there was the Sony CD root-kit fiasco. Which of course supports some previous posts in this thread - if a big company is insensitive to the consumer or just plain arrogant, people feel infuriated by its policies and are even more likely to pirate its products.

I paid for AnyDVD even though I could get a crack off the internet. It's excellent, it's cheap, and the company is small. Another reinforcement of the views in this thread.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of support is there for legislating against DRM? Is it a good thing? Or is DRM needed? What do you think?

Personally I think DRM hurts the consumer too much to be justified.

In Sweden there is a "pirate party" that has won a lot of support thanks to its proposal to outlaw DRM.

Do you mean support in general, or support in this forum? I'd guess that almost all our members would like to see an end to DRM. I'm inclined to think that legislating against it will never happen, at least in the UK and US because politicians are prodded (and even bankrolled) by big companies, they think they know better than the consumer (too many examples to quote) and they play the 'law and order' card every time. Joe and Sally Public, who use their iPod or whatever just as the manufacturer intended, probably don't know about DRM and don't really care. Sad, eh?

I found that pirating is kind of a phase. When we are younger and dont have enough money to go out and spend $600-$700 on photoshop or what ever, you will pirate. But when you get older and have money, people usually have more morals and will actually go out and buy the software. Plus this doesnt make it right, but software companies make enough money where a couple hundred thousand people or how ever many doesnt really effect them.

Hmm... interesting. That reminds me of when I recently obtained WinZIP Self-Extractor 3.0 and cracked it because I needed it longer than 45 days. I wanted to use it for internal use and not to distribute the exes outside my base. Furthermore, If I ever do use this to make money off of it, I'll purchase it very first instant the money starts rolling in. Personally, I don't see the justification of a $50 price tag when it isn't any different from some of the other freeware variants out there. What REALLY chips my hide about this product is the fact that it costs $20 more than WinZIP itself! I mean come on! Do you really want to shell out that much dough for such a simple add-on tool?

Guru

Piracy is wrong but the MPAA & RIAA try and defend themselves in the wrong way.

They say that it's thieft because i'm not buying it and by not buying it the industry isn't getting my money.

I say WHAT MONEY? Im a penniless student? Either way downloading ot no downloading they are not getting my money so how can the industry be any better or worse off?

O.K I'm at uni and hope to have started my own media company sometime within the next ten years. If it's successful and I'm pretty well off I'll probably buy stuff then when i have the money to spend on these things I'll spend it. until then i shall obtain them the only way i can for free via torrents. If i movie is good. I'll go to the cinema to watch it but £15 for a film? I'd never watch any!

i don't see how by being a data pirate me personally am costing the industries anything?

Ok so don't touch what you can't afford. In my neighbourhood. I think by downloading films and music i was probably committing the most lesser crime in my town.

Just a thought - I wonder how many people have bought software because they couldn't find a crack for it? I mean, they've downloaded some obscure shareware tool and really liked it, but because it's not mainstream the cracking groups haven't fixed it. So they either delete it in a fit of annoyance, or they shell out the relatively small purchase price. I do know people who have bought stuff simply because they couldn't find a crack, but would have pirated it otherwise.

What I'm getting at is that the distinction between 'not being able to afford' and 'choosing not to afford' is rather blurred in some cases. It's often a case of "I'd rather spend that $50 on a new drive than on some software which I can get for free" - and that's where the software developers have a point.

All software should be free and easily distributable. However, one should pay it if one can realize profit from selling it or using it.

Not all companies support DRM. I read somewhere that even big companies like Microsoft are starting to get more cautious about implementing it everywhere.

And I know quite a few non-techicians who are really upset about the music they bought which can not be burnt to CD etc.

Im a 14 year old kid, Im not going to pay for Photoshop/Dreamweaver/Flash/etc. Its simply dumb. I do however, plan on purchasing legal copies once I am older/can afford the, . There is no other way for to get them, and all the other "lite" versions and stuff like that suck, because you can't use the core things needed in the program. I know its wrong, and I do it. If I could afford it, I'd buy it. When I can afford it, I WILL buy it, most definatley. Movies and TV Shows- I download them a lot, but only movies in theatres that I have seen, and am sure I am going to buy, Same with TV shows, If I miss an episode, I'll download. And if its something I download, its something I want to buy, so I force my self the delete the stuff once it comes out so that I HAVE to buy it.

Yeah... I strongly agree. DRM is just another layer of dumbass beuracracy in the music industry.



Guru

That's a reasonable statement, and I hope that when the day comes that you can afford it, you will buy it. The problem is that it may prove difficult to justify buying something that you probably could afford but is already working fine on your system - when the mortgage needs paying, the baby is hungry and your car needs new brakes. Then you may be tempted to say "If I could afford it, but I can't right now..."

There was an interesting article this week in the NY Times on spy software and snooping on your kids, spouse and so on, and it touches on ethics in a way relevant to this thread.
Quoting from that text:

"For this latest generation, there's an obscure line between lawful
behavior and ethical behavior," Mr. Hong said.

Jan Goldman, who teaches ethics and intelligence at the Joint Military
Intelligence College in Washington, where real spies are trained, said
many people approach spying with 'applied situational ethics' - they
change the meaning of right and wrong to suit their advantage.

"And that's not ethical," he said. "When you're confronted with
something else that you feel is a greater priority, then you are able to
trump your ethics."

Software piracy is very simple to stop, just make it opensource and/or free!

There is many money in computer hardware, computers and stuff that you can't copy and pirate! There's money is webhosting and bandwidth, so why can't all software AND operating systems's be free?

Companies will save a lot of money if it was free, because there wouldn't be very expensive law suits and stuff like Microsoft sueing and people sueing Microsoft because they have some things that they aren't sussposed to use in vista, if it was opensource Windows and Mac would not compete, they could be written to have the same features and seucrity as eachother.

Yes, I don't know if anyone pays for Photoshop not to mention CS2! I don't know who really buys much software anymore either.

So it's the companies charing money for it, they need to pay their programmers but open source is volunteer and free!

I agree with Gaber, I would pay for software if I could afford it, but not many people can dish out 300 bucks for photoshop.

I would disagree. There is something to be said for the closed source and non free models as well.

And plenty of people pay for Photoshop and the like, else the companies would have long went out of business.

Going open source and charging for support only would actually hurt companies like Adobe.

MS could in fact go to a free (not open source) home user edition (read gimped) and only charge for support, oems and VLKs and still be very profitable. But the market has shown them that they have no need to do so. Unless that changes there is no need.

I'd just like to add one area in this topic that I feel should be discussed. Piracy remains to be a grey area in law where clearly even the ones in charge have no true idea where to stand on the matter in whole. This is exemplified by the differences in laws within states, countries, and global unions alike. The battle right now between a consumer's rights and the companie's control is by far the reason this situation is growing with extreme frustration and resentment towards each side. This is what has been discussed and I would like to add something different.

Now as for a new position from a business mind, let us take Apple and Microsoft into consideration. If you have followed Microsoft and their position on piracy, the company attacks corporations or larger interests when piracy is involved. With the amount of capital needed to sue someone, it's in their best interest to remain in this spectrum of illegal action. However, what about the everyday user....

Microsoft gained a large percentage of the market from Piracy as well. This does not just include countries around the world (unable to find this product originally) but also here at home. Now being Microsoft you can say you own XX% of the market, however how much of that is actually piracy? What you find in piracy is that with time it becomes a marketing position for the company and if countered correctly can cause increased market growth and capital. Simply put, anyone in piracy knows that even though you may have a version of the product, it's not always the exact thing. If the pirate continually uses the product and enjoys it, usually they will proceed with purchasing the real product and supporting the company (just like people with osx86 boxes). This has been a proven fact with piracy with the majority, which leaves only a small percentage that will remain pirates no matter what happens with a product.

Probably the best example would be the Xbox. The company when in fear of piracy only looked to protect online gaming from cheating. The fact that the machine was hacked really did not receive a large backlash with security updates. Many speculate this to be a safety precaution for Microsoft aiming their profits towards another sub-product of gaming: Online gaming. Without going too deep on this, we have all seen just how big Xbox Live is now.

With a little help from piracy (just a little), the machine quickly grew in market share and furthermore the company based a large collection of 360 features upon homebrew applications. This was even documented where Bill and other top heads would hack an xbox and view all the features to study the market. The key picture is that through piracy the company was able to grasp a full understanding of what a gamer would want in their machine. And in return gamers are pleasantly surprised so far with the 360.

With the position of Apple, this is where I find OSX86 to be a ground level change in the rest of Apple's future. Eventually, osx86 may become one of two things. First, Apple may finally release OSX to all PC's and fight Microsoft (I doubt it but I would love to see it). What people don't understand sometimes is the looking glass effect where Apple is using this forum and it's creators as two pieces of information. First and foremost, the company (just like the xbox homebrew) is being viewed and studied with their work on OSX and our "debugging" of the system with new CPUs, Vid Cards, MBoards...etc.

The amount of man hours spent on this site is actually helping Apple if they were planning on entering the PC market with a full spectrum of hardware specs.

Also, you will find that Apple FINALLY has a community that they were unable to achieve before... the modders. Unlike PC, Apple really could not afford to have PC modders and even upgrading was brought to a lower control with their product. However now Apple has found that they have gained a new market of die hard PC users that have built machines specifically to test out the limits of OSX. Not to mention it also shows market information on how more intelligent PC users are affected by switching over to Mac.


The other option with this situation is that the piracy will increase sales of Apple products. This is just created through patience and the lack of support released by the company. In time people will not want to patch and wait for issues to be resolved by one forum member. We all saw how JaS became overwhelmed by the greed and persistant annoyance of other users.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I am not held by these thoughts and do not enjoy getting into large heated debates. I only tend to play the "what if" card and throw a view or two from the business side of this disucssion.


I would like to thank everyone on this site for their help and hard work. Respect for your work never really shows up on this site and at least for me you will always know that I admire your talent and determination. Oh yea, go easy on me as I do not have a spell check handy.

Thanks again!



PS. I am still in need of a demonoid invite if anyone can PM me one. TIA

software piracy is certainly a crime and it's certainly a theft...there's no saying here, like photocopying a book is theft so is copying a program
the real thing here is that stealing money from somebody's pocket in our culture is seen as theft, immoral more than illegal and we've been told so since childhood, so most of us avoid doing that...but nobody has ever been said that software piracy is theft, our morals have been conceived way before software, so nobody could teach you not to download Windows off eMule...
and what's more, stealing a wallet you're stealing to some well determined individual, but when copying Windows your crime goes against an unknown and foggy Mr. Gates somewhere in the US whom you'll never ever meet in your life...
I guess that's what makes software piracy different from other forms of theft

Recent News:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2...tent_517377.htm

13 *MILLION* pirated discs seized and destroyed. Imaging that 100 CD-R spool in your head... 13 THOUSAND of those... yeah...

My favorite line: "If the government gets rid of pirated products and we provide cheaper legitimate ones, the future market will become more promising," said Chen."

Earlier in the article, some discs were sold for $1.25 US. So, CS2 for $1.25 scam or $800 retail... there's a LONG way to go to make that maybe pirate into a legit buyer...

I agree with this guy, I myself Pirate because I connot afford - I'm a student. If I continue pirating when im done, that will be a bad habit.

My personnal vision of software would be that you could go to Futureshop, Cirtcuit City, london drugs, EBGames or wereever, and buy photo shop and other programs for 5-10 and OS for around 2-50 dollars.

Why? Because if it was done that way, I would go to town once a month and load up, I would spend 25 dollars and get those 4-5 programs just because its not 250 + dollars (im thinking canadian money here)

I wouldnt be alone, I know most you you here feel guilty about it and do it too, to ease our guilt many of us would swng by the software store and pick up a few on the way home from work. The truth is, if it takes 5 +hours to DL MAC OS x off bittorrent (... purely hypothetical...). I would have no qualms about picking it up for a reasonable price when I happened to be pasing a store that sold it.

Photoshop is much the same way. Its worth hundreds of dollars. as a student I would pay 5-10 dollars to play around with it. there is no way in a million years I would pay over 100.

"I Pirate because I cannot afford" I cannot afford aFerrari, so should I steal it?
A total different thing is to make changes to software I have bought, the agreements I have to sign when for istance I buy Os/x DO violate the most basical and common sense civil rights on property. I pay a lot a Euros for an OS and than I cannot tamper with It? what about if mercedes wil make you sign an agreement to park your car only in some places they like before selling it? Anyway all this stuff has absolutly NOTHING to do with ethics and moral. Big software houses DO NOT rely on ethics and moral, the rely on Laws and tribunals and they have the power and money to have goverments make the laws they like. How can anyone defend his civil rights on property against microsoft or apple or IBM when they can sue you at costs you'll never be able to match?