Due to consultation with the EFF, we believe it prudent to remove any threads and/or posts that pertain to the downloading of leaked versions of Leopard.

As you all know, we don't support the sharing of copyrighted materials - we simply open this forum for you to talk about the things you like. When those things interfere with Apple's intellectual property, however, we have to act.

What does this mean? Well, it means that for the time being, everyone is free to discuss what they want about Leopard. Due to the recent court rulings regarding ThinkSecret et al, we believe that Apple will allow discussion of upcoming features by those not bound by a non-disclosure agreement.

The bottomline is this: we want to keep this forum a friendly and free place for you to discuss the things that matter to you the most. In order for us to do this, we have to take the common sense measures to protect you and ourselves.

Thanks for your understanding in this matter.

-Mash

Good call.

at least they got a good 90+ pages in

THAT'S where the thread went. I thought I had gone NUTTS! Sure was nice while it lasted

Yep, nice from the perspective of being HIGHLY illegal due to the nazi-esque legal system in place in the United States... Sure makes me proud to be a Canadian, where atleast I know I'm free... (and yada, yada, yada.)

Bwhaha, that's a good one.

...

Am I the only one with a legal copy of Leopard?

You probably are... I don't know how many people are paying registred developers and went to WWDC. I'm assuming your a developer though...

Yeah, I went, I wasn't too happy with the Keynote, like most people, but, unlike most people, I got to fool around with Core Animation, so that's good.

Im glad to see that insanelymac is allowing us to discuss leopard, despite where we obtained it.

Nice one.

great for not getting shut down mash i always like to hear that a forum i like hasnt been shut down

I do wonder if we will see a crackdown by Apple when this new leaked build will come down to the average bittorrent trackers. Previous Select (non-WWDC) builds were always pretty heavily hunted.

I HATE piracy!

Me too ...

fascists.

thiefs ...

wow that was random...

why? does it hurt anyone ? it is providing you software and other stuff.

Really simple
1) You like the software so you think it worth its money and you pay for it (because they have made a good job).
2) You think the software is too expensive for what you get so don't use it, and use alternatives (like linux).

When you want to buy a car, you don't STEAL a lamborghini, you just buy a car that fit your budget.
When you want to buy some food but you think it's too expensive, you don't STEAL it, you just buy another one.

What happens if everybody use piracy software ?
How the new release of Mac OS X you are all crying for will be out with no money for developpers dude ?

I think its a bit stupid to suddenly sound of about piracy months after the thread effectively closed - esspecially on this forum.

and yeah your right, I should really shell out for that £3000 copy of 2003 server or whatever it is for Tiger Server so I can learn how these things work for my course - like hell.

hence your both fascists and I dont really care if you think I'm a thief. Microsoft is worse than any of us. :-D

Heh, im going to use software whether or not i pay for it , if i cant find a crack, i'll patch it myself, freedom of knowledge, so all you whiners, go suck on a fat one

Usually you call people facist when you have no argument (some reading for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law).

Anyway, Microsoft is providing 180 days trial 2003 server for evaluation (if you need more than 180 days to learn how is working windows then you are stupid). So, yes, you are a thief.

Another thing, why learn a tool that Apple or Microsoft want to charge for even for an educational purpose ?
Just learn something else (*BSD, Solaris 10, Linux) and let them die with their stupidity.

And if it's really for your course, they should give you all the tools you need and not rely on piracy.

But can you download a Lamborghini?

Exactly, if its there, take it

a bit off-topic, but if a supermodel was available to download, who wouldn't download her?

Yes, but I am speaking about being honest or not.
You are just proving that if you was able to steal what you want, you would do so...
What a beautiful education ...

preferring Kiko's argument there

in reference to Godwin's law - perhaps you would prefer to be compared more to Musolini? I understand your point with the 180 day trial of 2003 server, but my course is 3 years long. And they dont give us the tools we need as you put it. For example, the other day we learned about AD in Windows 2000 Server and that night I decided to go over it again, luckily I had a disc and code available.

As for learning Solaris/BSD/Linux instead I really wish I could combine my hobby and my uni course like that.

The best things in life are free!

Theres a difference here, and varied degrees of how legal or illegal things are.

1. You can steal a lamborghini or a lada.
2. You can steal a copied lamborghini or lada
3. You can make your own copied lamborghini or lada
4. You can put a lamborghini tag on your lada or lada tag on your lamborghini
5. You can buy yourself a lamborghini or lada

Piracy of 'intellectual property' is more vague but,

1. It is not possible to steal it
2. It is possible to steal a copy of it (and to get closer to 1. you have to eliminate the originator)
3. It is possible to make your own copy of it
4. It is possible to call somthing else for the same
5. It is possible to buy 'rights'

And finally, if you sing a song someone else has composed (be it in your lamborghini or lada or in your shower) you are stealing according to the music industry, unless you have acquired the rights to do so (which in most cases you haven't as they are all 'all rights reserved').

The most dangerous too.

some free stuff have consequences...

I think the whole issue of software piracy is more complicated than people think. Yes, it's illegal, and yes you should not do it. I do think that people should be paid for their work. I am pro-business. An individual or a company should be free to work hard, and be paid for their work, and get a good income/profit from it. If a company makes a billion dollars profit, I say: "Well done!".
But it's not a perfect world. Many large corporations make profits that can cause direct or indirect harm to people, the environment, and other companies. These companies can become world-spanning monopolies, or near monopolies with more power and influence than that of large States.
Drug companies, oil companies, and IT companies like Microsoft can lie, cheat, break the law, and cause great harm. They can become dangerous parasites and public enemies. They can, and will, become the new totalitarian state if we are no very careful. They face little effective opposition. The Linux and Open Source movement is one grass-roots alternative. Some governments are wising-up, and using solar power, or open source. But there are many defeats. The US department of Justice tried..several times to moderate Microsoft's anti-trust behaviour to a reasonable level IMHO, they failed utterly. People were too afraid of what would happen to blue-chip IT shares.
So some people fight back, with warez. If a large corporation cheats, it has a 1000 lawyers, and a billion dollar budget for legal defence. If a poor individual cheats, then they go to jail. Neither is "right".
So while I don't condone software piracy, I can't really condemn it either. Some are criminals, and maybe some are heros, it depends on the intent, more than anything.
I think that the vast majority of people will be honest and obey the law, if there is some sort of fairness in our legal and business world. But the fact of the matter, is that there is no reasonable fairness or justice in our capitalist economy. This is hurting honest businesses, people, and governments everywhere. The stock market has become corrupt, and our master. What used to be an efficient way of allocating resources for the common good is now a burden round all our necks. We are ruining the planet, and letting people die. Our freedoms are dying too, because if just a few big meg-corporations have control, then where is the free market???
It's like the terrorism debate. Terrorists are immoral, but that does not mean that some of them may have legitimate grievences. Most people do not strap explosives to their chests and blow themselves up for no good reason. Yes, a lot are crazy fanatics, but you have to ask how they got that way.
I think that society better start to take a long, hard look at itself, before we doom ourselves to perpetual war and slavery.

@pengy: Not bad for your 2nd post! ;-)

No, just joking. In my opinion the context on this matter couldn't be explained any better!

they should have just pulled the Leopard threads all together, there is no useful content.

I rather read about what Leopard has or does not have to offer me from someone who is using it pirated or not, instead I get a batch of worthless dribble about stealing software.

What a complete waste of energy here.

@pengy,
very informative and objectiv post.

I look at it this way, download the software and see if you like, try it out... If you do like it then buy it and you can bet that I will be purchasing a copy of leopard off of store shelves the day it comes out... Until then -

@pengy

Don't know in which country you are located but you are a shining example of the product of
an educational system infested by Marxists.
YOU ARE 180 DEGREES WRONG !!

Hi guys n girls, my opinion about Software piracy: (music and movies are to much I could write about *g*, but they are the ones with the biggest disprofit)

You really can't say that "all" companies are really hurt when using and not paying for their software.
A big software company here in south-west Germany, that makes a burning software for windows for example, does it most of its overturn with OEM licenses. Think about **** Express, that is shipped with the PC's from the supermarket, if you buy a new CD/DVD Writer, or a DVD-Player that supports **** Digital. The Retail licenses you can personally purchace by stockists and retailers does only a few percent of their business volume. And they don't really care about chasing people using their software for free. But a good thing here is, that they share a 30 day trial for use.

Software, that is programmed by only one or a few persons (mostly shareware) and is not paid for, could ruin the programmers, cause they invest time and sweat and get their money by the purchase of every license. No insurance, ammortisation and subsidations. They really should be paid.

Also, this little programs do a good job and are cheap. But no normal person (I'm a student) could afford to buy a license of Rational Rose, Navision, or best example, the Adobe CS3 Design edition. I think as long as you don't use pirated sofware to make money it's okay. Well, when you make your apprenticeship or study, you don't have money for that, of course.

So why don't use Freeware? Most companies (here in Germany) use common software because they can set it off against tax liability and people that are newly employed can use more resources to learn commercial programs. And if they come from other companies, they are used to the software.

When I think about 5 years ago, (when I wasn't full of age) I went to a vocational college for commercial information technology, almost everybody had notebooks or HDD's to copy fresh pirated stuff in the breaks. It was just common.

So to concise: I do, and for me it's okay, as long I don't use it for commercial purpose only for educational one.
Btw. Germany is under the Top10 software pirating countries which I'm not proud about.

Here the statistics: hxxp://www.bsa.org/germany/presse/newsreleases/upload/Piracy%20Study%20FINAL%20REPORT.pdf

Greetz
eNZO

I think a few of us are under the category of I'll try it before I buy it. That's why I have 10.5 right now. Same with the CS3 stuff I've tried.
I wonder though....Is it considered piracy to continually use trial software? I seem to find some new OS to try and dislike, or am re-arranging partitions enough that if I run out of time on a trial, I just install it on a new partition w/ a new OS.

I don't buy that for beta packages. "I'm testing a known buggy product that might change before release so I can decide whether to buy it."
Now if you did the same once the final was released, OK.


You never know with some of the ridiculous things they throw in those user agreements that none of us read but all accept.

Poor girl... she couldn't survive after all you guys There is another question. Do you need, as a student, Rational Rose or Adobe CS3 Design edition?Short answer is "NO" :)Can't say too much about CS3, but Rational products are expencive because not so many users *really* needs that and will spend their money on.

well this was an bullsh*t attack.I am from romania, an ex-communist country.i know from deep inside what communism was.u are from us.my grandfather was waiting for u americans after ww2 , but stalin come to us.sorry , but is enought to hear from you and others the same inacurate speech.my income is 500euros per months.and i am middle class.calculate yourself.think about that...i am willing to pay licenses or attend to conferences but simply can't afford that.

hey guys i just wanted to ask if anyone here knows:

If someone is an apple developer can he install Leopard on a pc or is it still illegal?
Any links that clear things up on the subject?

Anyone?

It's still illegal. When tiger was released on Intel, there were developer boxes that were ordinary pc's, sent out by Apple, with OS X on. Those were legal. They're no longer necessary because there are lots of Intel macs around...

There are different types of reasons I pirate certain things.
If it's Leopard, I'd rather pirate it than pay x1.5 the price my country sells instead of the normal $129. They're full of {censored}, I'm not paying extra for nothing, that's illogical. The DMG copy is so conveniently everywhere on the internet.
If it's Photoshop, it's because I thinks it's upward scam. The price is not justifying it, not when I'm not some super artist with 20 years of experience and life depending on it. If I go to a restaurant which arrogantly serves me disgusting food, of course I'd rather walk away if I could.
And finally, if it's normal everyday shareware, I don't think I can go through all the trouble paying mere $20 given I'm underaged and in a country where I can't pay from on the internet.

Still, not justifying piracy because so far no one's I've seen had the same reasons as me. Always the same "because I can."

Again, everyone needs to understand the difference between
A. Breach of contract
B. Illegality

An action can be either, none, or both.

All of this is determined by your jurisdiction so there is no general statement one can make.


In Europe, installing Leopard would probably be ruled fair use provided you own the license (i.e. own a copy), and thus
not breach of contract nor illegal. Though, the violating the pre-release developer's license would most likely constitute a breach
of contract.

Obtaining a copy from the internet is licit in some European jurisdictions (e.g. Sweden, Switzerland)--this
doesn't make it moral though.

In the USA, it would constitute breach of contract in any case. It would be "illegal" if you told others how to do it or obtained it
from the internet without owning a copy of the original disc and uploading to others.

So any questions of legality should be coupled with the Statement:


I LIVE IN JURISDICTION X

For example, if you live in Syria, none of this would apply (Apple products aren't sold there).

There are a lot of opinions on the matter.. but i go with one..

You are allowed to have one copy of something you own..

You are some kind allowed to have a copy if you are not making money by using it or by selling it and such.. if it stays to personal and not to gain you are some what ok..

That's what i think, thats what i'm stick on to..

e.g. you may have copied windows at home..
you may not have copied windows at work.. cause you produce and make money of'em..

There is some kind of law about it, but i'm not so "in" to it.. i know enough not to hurt my self!

I'm from Romania, too, and i agree with you on some level.
In Romania, the piracy level is quite high. Some afford to buy software (usually businesses because they can be fined), some don't want to buy software, if they can spend that money on something more practical...non essential stuff like...food, clothing, paying the bills and stuff like that...
I earn as much as you and if i had to pay for all the software I use or used throughout the time, I should work for no money for about 1 year, at least....
But, stupid me, I chose to use cracked software and buy myself some parts for my PC...
As for apples, in Europe, the price for any Apple product is calculated like this:

in the States... MacBook Pro ---> $2000 more or less...
in Europe (Romania for example)---> take the $ sign and convert it into Euro sign, and after that add VAT tax (19% of the product value)
now the MacBook pro costs 2380 Euro (that is $3673)..... affordable...isn't it? ($1=0.647 Euro)

My laws of Piracy:

1..Piracy is ok, provided you pay for the pirated material that you find useful afterwords.

That's the most important rule.

We "must" financially support the things in our life that help us succeed and enjoy living.

Otherwise, those things will go away.

Our dollars are votes for things we want, things we approve of, and things that actually
help us to succeed. If we don't vote, the opposition wins.



2. Pirate only tools. Don't pirate movies, music, games, and other "end products"
that are just consumables, because these things are "enjoyed" and then cast away.

They are not inputs into some creative output. When you pirate a tool, if that tool
turns out to be useless, then only time and effort learning the tool is wasted, you
save the cash investment, so this is the wisest decision you could make. If the tool
turns out to be useful, and especially if you're making money using the tool, then
you must buy the tool, as soon as you can afford to. Consider the tool a loan from
the software developer, to help your business get started, just as if you took out
a bank loan to buy the tool when venturing out on the new project. Treat piracy the
same way. All piracy should be considered "loans" from developers to producers
that just exclude the usual intermediary "banks", and full payment on the software
is expected at some point in the future, unless your business goes bankrupt etc..i.e.
some of these "loans" turn out to be bad loans, and are written off as such by the
software house. These loans are "interest free" loans. That's because they are
also "risk free" loans. There's no risk involved. Because, neither the one lending, nor
the one borrowing, has any actual cash at risk. The lender is "creating" his own money,
i.e. "duplicating his software tool" by pushing the "copy" button on his computer. So
no cash is actually lost in the "loan origination", i.e "software copy", process.

Therefore, these are better than bank loans.

A bank loan adds "debt" to the economy, and has lots of bad consequences when
they accumulate, like the sub-prime deboccle. i.e. they encourage people to lie,
to cheat on their loan application, to get approval for their loans, etc..A pirate doesn't
have to lie to anybody to get a loan for his software tool. He just has to keep quiet.

A piracy loan adds no monetary debt to the economy, does not defraud any investors,
does not create any false expectations, and yet it empowers startups to get going,
and initiates productivity in many instances where otherwise nothing would get done !

Long live the good pirate.