I'm curious why nobody has figured this out or done it before. Imagine you're far away from the western world in some place untouchable by the Eula. You sell a hard drive with Leopard on it online, (shipping cost would be minimal) and a shopping list for compatible hardware. (The mb and video card are the important ones.) Your shopping list enables the North American or European user to buy cheap hardware so when he plugs in that hard drive - it just works. Psystar used Gigabyte so it must be pretty compatible. Then do what Psystar did and take the Apple updates and modify them so they are safe to install for your users by downloading from torrent sites that you have uploaded them to. There would be no other hardware markup (like Psystar's inflated prices) and you could just mark up the hard drive for your trouble. I would think people would gladly pay $100 over the typical hard drive cost, especially as they could use existing hardware they may have to lower the cost of their new overseas Hack Pro. Yes you could ship the mb/cpu/video card but then shipping would be a lot more and they would still have to assemble it into a case because shipping a case by air freight just wouldn't be economically viable. If you lived where the hardware was being built (China?) perhaps this would make more sense as you would probably then be able to buy parts a little cheaper than in the developed world. And that would offset the shipping costs. A hard drive, mb, cpu, ram and video card sure don't weigh much. But shipping a single Sata hard drive from Asia sure wouldn't cost much. And a hard drive is very easy to pack, plus its not even very fragile.

Or imagine doing the same with a DVD and a shopping list? Lower shipping even still and no hard drive to deal with! But it would have to really work 100%.

If you didn't want to piss Apple off completely, perhaps you could put the hacks onto a DVD and then encourage people to go out and by a legit Leopard DVD. Once again it comes with a 100% tested and proven shopping list.

For most nuubies, to wade through all their options here is just insurmountable.

That would be a logistics nightmare.

First off, just duping a "one-install fits-all" OSX installation is a lot easier said than done.

Beyond that, you'd quickly run smack into the one truism of the tech world: too many people simply are incapable of following even the simplest of directions. Even when you lay the information out for them on a silver platter.

Therefore, even if you had the most explicit set of instructions known to mankind: ONLY use this drive on THIS, THIS and THIS hardware- your BIOS MUST be set to THIS, THIS, and THIS... the drive must be selected as the startup disk... DO NOT do braindead things like REFORMAT IT... etc. etc....


You'd still have people that would expect it to work on hardware that's not even close to the right spec... and blame you for it. You'd have people with the correct hardware, that couldn't follow the set of instructions long enough to make anything work- and blame you for it.

Your customer base would probably only be people that are already tech-savvy enough to build a Hack for themselves- which then begs the question, how much of a premium would tech-savvy people pay for a HD with pre-installed OS X? My guess is, not enough to be very profitable.

Beyond even all that, you'd probably still have Apple shut you down. Even if you're located offshore, if you're earning profits in the US, you can be sued in the US (dunno about the EU).

The OpenComputer (nee OpenMac) is G31/ICH7 and is pretty compatible.

The OpenPro is P35/ICH9, and is less so.

The move to a "vanilla" kernel was a good one.

Exactly. This is why they buy the real deal. Mac "just works" -- Vista, Hackintosh, etc. have more issues than most because of not only INCAPABLE but INCOMPATIBLE. The average absolute noob isn't going to stumble upon a Mac clone site and purchase so he can take money from Steve Jobs' wallet. They only know the real brand. Smarter people know what they're realy paying for.

> Therefore, even if you had the most explicit set of instructions known to mankind: ONLY use this drive on THIS, THIS and
> THIS hardware- your BIOS MUST be set to THIS, THIS, and THIS... the drive must be selected as the startup disk... DO NOT > do braindead things like REFORMAT IT... etc. etc....

Actually, beyond setting up their Bios, there wouldn't be much of any instructions to follow. It would be far easier than installing Windows. So its a vast improvement. That is if they weren't shipping the hard drive. But if they were shipping the hard drive with Leopard installed there is little to go wrong. There would be no install at all. Just assembly of the hardware. If it was a heavily discounted motherboard, there would be little incentive for people to try to use other motherboards, unless they already had them in their possesion. Maybe have on as Mini-ATX and the other full ATX. As long as it supports quad core processors there would be a huge range of CPU's that would be able to run on it enabling an immense range of performance. And offer 2 types of video cards perhaps. Or one. With the other option being the built on video of the motherboard for an even lower cost.

> You'd still have people that would expect it to work on hardware that's not even close to the right spec... and
> blame you for it. You'd have people with the correct hardware, that couldn't follow the set of instructions long enough
> to make anything work- and blame you for it.

Hopefully there really wouldn't be any instructions to follow. The software would install everything per spec. You'd pick a
heavily discounted motherboard as the core of your system. But if you are shipping the hard drive, then all this is irrelevant. There is not software install.

> Beyond even all that, you'd probably still have Apple shut you down. Even if you're located offshore, if you're earning
> profits in the US, you can be sued in the US (dunno about the EU).

If you were located in a country where Apple has no relationship with, and your money deposit location was out of the US, what could they do? Why do you think millions of items of knockoffs are sold out of China every year? Because its hard to stop.
The beginning would be slow but as your reputation grew, so would your business. Treating your customer well would be the key like always.

Now understand. I'm not advocating this. I'm just wondering why it hasn't happened yet. Imagine living in China and being able to buy OSX86 compatble motherboards and video cards at a discount. Then shipping this very lightweight package with a hard drive that has the OS ALREADY INSTALLED anywhere in the world. Upon arrival, the buyer goes out to his local discount computer store and buys a heavily discounted CPU, DVD burner, power supply and case to complete the picture.

International law is not so simple.

If you are set up in Canada or Mexico and just shipping into the USA, I suspect that you could largely get away with ignoring the US Courts. They have limited jurisdiction at best and more importantly, their orders have no direct force in other countries.

For example, UK-based Spamhaus has successfully ignored the default judgment of a US Federal Court: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spamhaus_...ct#e360_Lawsuit

If I was setting up an OSx86/Mac-cloning shop, I would probably do it Canada on the border.

Can anyone show me a Chinese or other company with a knockoff Mac for sale in the US? A Canadian company with a Mac clone for sale in the US?? (!!!)

Please point me to them, because I'd like to buy one.

Something tells me Apple would find some way to stop anyone from selling a Mac clone in the US, no matter what degree of hiding behind some other location they were trying to pull. They could probably seize whatever assets the company was making here.


Again, you're approaching this from a standpoint of already understanding and knowing technology. If you were doing ANY kind of volume to be in the least bit profitable, you'd be dealing with a LOT of people (probably a majority!) with the tech knowledge of a GNAT. BIOS settings? Please. You'd find yourself dealing with people with an AMD socket 7, Biostar motherboard from 2001, whining at you about they can't find the right settings ...that you set up for a Gigabyte INTEL 775 socket mobo from 2008! Mind-blowing things like that are common when dealing with hardware noobs, which you'd have to market to for any sort of profitable product.

It really IS why Apple's "It just works" approach works, and even most PC makers. Most people need something they don't have to deal with things like BIOS settings.



Which again, a huge majority of computer users actually can't do. Most people buy machines with Windows already installed, and never touch it until something hangs up beyond all use, and they take it to Geek Squad.


That's such a huge gulf of things to "go wrong" with average computer users that it's simply laughable, sorry. If you were selling to people with tech knowledge, it begs the question why they would need such an install. They can probably figure it out themselves. People without tech knowlege? Assemble hardware? That's a mix like oil and water.

Believe me, I build and sell computers to people as a side business, simply because so many people just simply can't do the things you and I find bone-simple. A lot of people would see whatever advertising about "Buy a Hard drive, install it, and Voila! You have Mac OSX!" and order it without reading a WORD of any requirements. Many who did read , wouldn't really know what motherboard type, chipset, RAM, graphic card, or processor was inside their machine if you slapped them upside the head with each part hard enough to imprint the info in thier forehead.

With tech products, you really do have to make things that either work for hardware enthusiasts (like most of us here probably are) or prebuilt and hand-held for complete tech-noobs (the majority of people, quite frankly.) I can't see why hardware enthusiasts (the types that buy motherboards and procs outside of a pre-built system anyway) would want something like a pre-installed OS.

As for the legal stuff, I've little doubt there are gazillions of Chinese companies that would love to make ripoff Apple products (rip off iPhone running the actual software and behaving exactly like the real one only jailbroken, anyone?) - but I don't see where anyone really does that. There must be a reason for it- my guess is, no amount of "hiding" would allow a company to actually market such a product with impunity. Sure, they can make 'knock off' MP3 players that look a little like iPods and sell them in the US, but one running the ACTUAL iPod software? Whatever way they collected thier money from US sales, Apple could probably demand it seized. Maybe you could hide your company behind some border, but I don't see how you're going to conduct any monetary transactions from out of a vaccum.

I'd love to be wrong though. Forget desktops, I want my knock-off iPhone for half the price, please!

[quote name='Zaap' date='Aug 19 2008, 06:46 AM' post='861105']
> Can anyone show me a Chinese or other company with a knockoff Mac for sale in the US? A Canadian company with a Mac clone for sale in the US?? (!!!)

Sorry you misunderstood me. I never said any such thing. I originally said I wondered why it hasn't been done yet.

> Something tells me Apple would find some way to stop anyone from selling a Mac clone in the US, no matter what degree of hiding behind some other location they were trying to pull. They could probably seize whatever assets the company was making here.

Again you misunderstood. Nobody would be making anything here. You ship a hard drive from another country. Or a hard drive with a motherboard and video card. You are exporting. Just like China and other countries export billions of knockoffs a year.

> Again, you're approaching this from a standpoint of already understanding and knowing technology. If you were doing ANY kind of volume to be in the least bit profitable, you'd be dealing with a LOT of people (probably a majority!) with the tech knowledge of a GNAT. BIOS settings? Please. You'd find yourself dealing with people with an AMD socket 7, Biostar motherboard from 2001, whining at you about they can't find the right settings ...that you set up for a Gigabyte INTEL 775 socket mobo from 2008! Mind-blowing things like that are common when dealing with hardware noobs, which you'd have to market to for any sort of profitable product.

Again you didn't read what I wrote. The company ships a hard drive. Or a hard drive with a motherboard and video card. There are no installations required. The OS is installed on the hard drive.

> It really IS why Apple's "It just works" approach works, and even most PC makers. Most people need something they don't have to deal with things like BIOS settings.

Well I have to disagree with "It just works". Because often "it just doesn't". Yes its better than Windows but it still needs a lot of work. And almost all of Apple's apps are mediocre at best compared to the competition. I'd prefer they make their portable devices as they do know because they are good profit for the company, and focus on the OS and getting it really good. Offer a Windows skin so when Window's users try it, they don't have to learn Apple's different commands. Then they would see the difference between the 2 and realize the superiority of OS X, without the distraction of the navigation and shortcut differences.

> Believe me, I build and sell computers to people as a side business, simply because so many people just simply can't do the things you and I find bone-simple. A lot of people would see whatever advertising about "Buy a Hard drive, install it, and Voila! You have Mac OSX!" and order it without reading a WORD of any requirements. Many who did read , wouldn't really know what motherboard type, chipset, RAM, graphic card, or processor was inside their machine if you slapped them upside the head with each part hard enough to imprint the info in thier forehead.

Then those people should buy the hard drive, motherboard and video card combo. Then they can pay their nephew to install it into a case with a power supply, cpu and DVD burner.

> As for the legal stuff, I've little doubt there are gazillions of Chinese companies that would love to make ripoff Apple products (rip off iPhone running the actual software and behaving exactly like the real one only jailbroken, anyone?) - but I don't see where anyone really does that.

This is a lot easier than making a cell phone! Its already being done by Psystar and thousands of OSX86 enthusiasts all over the world. All someone has to do is to ship it preinstalled.

> There must be a reason for it- my guess is, no amount of "hiding" would allow a company to actually market such a product with impunity.

Well how do the knockoff companies get paid now?
If somoene had a bank account in Nigeria (to pick the most horrendeous example) what's to stop Joe Blow in the US from wiring him some money? And how is Apple going to control what goes into that Nigerian account? Remember it would be slow in the beginning, but people would order the products. When the word got out that it "just worked" with no OS install worries, a lot of people would order it when faced with the $600 cost for a pathetic Mac Mini, or the ludicrous price for a Mac Pro.

> I'd love to be wrong though. Forget desktops, I want my knock-off iPhone for half the price, please!

At $199 the iPhone is not expensive. And anybody with a paper route can buy an iPod. But a Mac computer: that is where there is a huge hole in the market. No thinking person would ever buy an iMac because when the screen dies or motherboard dies, you're dead. The replacement cost for those pieces is just prohibitive thanks to Apple's calous view of its buyers. The Mini is not a serious computer without replacing the hard drive with a full size one. And you're limiited buy it video. Otherwise it can limp along. And the Mac Pro is insanely expensive for its performance. When you see Windows users buying Mac Pros for running Windows then the Mac people can say their top of the line model is not overpriced. But you don't - because Windows users aren't that stupid when they buy.

But hey, maybe someone will start this and force Apple to come up with a midrange machine. That would be wonderful. A dual core machine that has a reasonably priced video card, in a normal case with eSata, Raid 0, provisions for PCI cards, etc. Then Apple can also sell upgrades to it, which is not so easy with machines like the iMac.

It hasn't been done yet, because actually no one could really get away with it. What you call 'knock offs' are actually clever re-engineered models that are completely different. IE: there is a knock off iPhone- but it doesn't run the Apple software. Do you really think a company could get away with selling an ACTUAL iPhone?

What makes you think the same forces that prevent that, wouldn't prevent some hard-drive scheme?


Hey, go ahead and try it. You'd very quickly realize exactly the logistics of what I'm talking about, and do a forehead slap! Again, Chinese knock-offs aren't really exact product duplicates. When companies DO actually knock off a product (take, Rayban sunglasses for example, I remember when Chinese firms were busted shipping them in) then law enforcement CAN and DOES act. Even if they can get away with making the exact knock-off in China, actually shipping and selling it here is another thing entirely.




I understand that. What you're failing to understand is that MOST people don't know how to INSTALL a hard drive and make it work, nor a motherboard, nor a graphic card. Even with explicit instructions, noobs would screw it up. People that actually buy computers as parts, could already figure this sort of thing out. The market you think exists, really doesn't. But I'd love to see someone give this a go. It would be entertaining to see what happens. Despite what you may think, profitablity would be virtually non-existant.



You're just talking about a barebones computer- the profits on barebones computers are just that- barebones. They are marketed to tech-entusiasts, not computer noobs. Also, when you ship an OS with a system, it's no longer barebones, wheter its pre-installed or not. You have no idea the minefeild of legal issues you'd run smack into in reality, but like I say, give it a try. If you really think Apple would have no recourse against you, or would just ignore yet another OEM trying to be clever in how they ship an installed Mac OS with a machine, why not give it a shot? Nothing they could do, right?


Psystar is being sued, and OS x86 enthusiasts are mostly just that- DIY enthusiasts. The whole point with most of this crowd is they don't need MacOS pre-installed, and can assemble and install systems themselves.



First off, once again, a true pirated 'knockoff' that crosses a border isn't beyond reach of the law, not by any stretch of the imagination, and not from any location. Just making something that looks a little like something else, but is different, isn't really the same thing.

What you're talking about from Nigeria or elsewhere, would be massive criminal enterprises. Sure, I suppose some crime ring could pull of something, until even that were broken up. It's not exactly any kind of viable business model, however. You would actually need quite a bit of clout in whatever country you were in to pull that sort of thing off anyway.

Whats to stop Joe Blow from wiring him some money? Ummm.. common sense? Not being completely gullible? A billion and one horror stories of other people getting ripped off?

Sorry, no, I don't believe most consumers will just order from some shady mail order company in Timbuktu, compared to paying $600 for an Apple product they can actually trust to a: actually arrive at their door, and b: arrive in working condition, and c: get support for.

Sounds like a nice fantasy, but I don't believe there's any viable business model in what you're thinking of. The real world logistics of it are far beyond what you seem to have thought through. Your customers would all have to be tech savvy, eerily trusting, more than a little bit naive and gullible (to trust what boils down to a crime ring as provider of their computer). Frankly, I don't think such a demographic really exists in profitable numbers.





Sorry, but now you're just off the charts. Regardless if you or I thinks the iMac is a good computer or not, people do buy them, even prefer them, and sales of Macs are insanely profitable for Apple. You're assiging to people the traits of hardware techies, when most people simply aren't. They don't care about the motherboard inside their iMac. And the customer base for iMacs simply don't even want to deal with assembling computers themselves. No matter what, someone's customers for their "assemble it yourself barebones Mac that *maybe* ships to you from some hellhole across the globe" would NOT be Apple's mainstream iMac or Mini customers.

Desktop and barebones sales have razor thin profit margins. The 'huge hole in the market' isn't really as huge as many people mistake it to be. Yes, there would be a market there for Apple itself to exploit, but Joe Knockoff? Successfully and sustained? Not really.

I don't care much for Apple's hardware and pricing myself, but I see exactly why they can get away with it. There really isn't a viable way to challenge them, not using their own OS without a legitimate OK from Apple.

Apple IS a global company. The idea that they are stuck in Cupportino without resources to protect their billions of dollars in intrests around the globe, is more than just a little naive, don't you think?

All I can say is you need to take some reading comprehension courses. I have rarely been so immensely misunderstood. No offense intended, but I discuss things on forums all the time. And the difference is obvious. You have barely grasped any of my points. Your response is so far off the mark - I don't expect people to agree with me - just say something that shows they have grasped the concepts discussed.

You keep on talking about knockoffs, and I have repeatedly shown that if someone were to do this, it bears no relation to a knockoff in the traditional sense of the word.

> What you're failing to understand is that MOST people don't know how to INSTALL a hard drive.....

To say most people don't know how to install a hard drive is just so bizarre. Why would they buy it then? Makes no sense. I sell off my old computer parts and almost every person I know would go for this if the company had a good reputation - which would take a few months to develop. You must be dealing with some majorly retarded people.

So would Psystar be sued if they are in Siberia? I think not.
One could ship parts from anyplace in the world where they are obtainable at a reasonable price (without heavy import taxes).

> > Whats to stop Joe Blow from wiring him some money?
> Ummm.. common sense? Not being completely gullible? A billion and one horror stories of other people getting ripped off?

Here's a perfect example of how you completely lost the meaning of the orignal statement.
If the company develops a good reputation - uses components with a high reliability record and good OSX86 compatilbiity - and ships promptly without overcharging - gee - do you think that company will get a good reputation after a few months when they are selling a computer at almost the level of a Mac Pro (yet with a far easier expandability and upgrading capability at a reasonable cost) for a 1/4 of the cost? I think so. Yes it would take a few months. But if they sold a good product for a reasonable cost it would happen. Just like any business. Then people wouldn't care where they are sending their money. The reputation of the company would carry them. Psystar was doing fairly well I think. Now imagine if they had lowered their price a bit. They would have sold tons. They didn't heven have a reputation yet they were doing well. Granted their US location helped, but time would have proven me right I think. If you're out of the country, it just takes a little longer.

You seem to think I want to do this counterfeit operation. Yet I have repeatedly said I'm neither advocating or condoning this. I'm just curious why others haven't done it yet - I said that before but you missed it. I could go on and on but to talk with someone who doesn't comprehend you and is incapable of submitting a relevant response is pointless. You seem incapable of grasping the most simple economic and entrepreneurial concepts.

Anyway, enjoy your Mac, whatever you use.

You haven't said much that shows you understand basic business concepts, so it's hard to discuss this with you when your outlook isn't truly reality-based. No offense, but for me, the realities of the business world trump fantasy (which, when real money is involved, is all that matters- wishing for or imagining things to be otherwise than how they really are doesn't count for much)


Huh? YOU brought up knockoffs in an attempt to justify the hard drive idea! Go back and read. You made the comparison yourself. I merely pointed out to you that what you were calling knockoffs, actually don't involve pirating someone else's commercial operating system, which IS what you are proposing.

You should merely consider why companies that are bold enough to knock things off, even they, brazen as they are, don't DARE go to the extreme of actually pirating operating systems on thier knockoff devices. WHY do you think that is? What makes you beleive it would be any different because we're talking a desktop computer rather than any other device?



You pretty much, in a round-about way, answered your own question. WHY would someone buy a hard drive with Leopard pre-installed (forget that it's supposed to be shipping from some far corner of the globe) that they have to know how to install (in a computer) themselves? If they are tech savvy enough to assemble a computer, then installing an OS isn't hard for them either. You've actually made not one thing easier for this person- heck, they'd probably have to wait two weeks for an overpriced hard drive (shipped from Siberia! HA!) when he can get one from newegg in a few days, with a legitimate RMA option, and install the OS himself.

WHY would someone buy it? Easy: They wouldn't.

Also, as I said, if you're shipping an installed OS, you can no longer pretend that it's just a barebones system with no OS licence needed. You DO need one, otherwise, you will be subject to legal action.

There's nowhere in the world that really fits the criteria of what you're wishing for IE: LAWLESS enough escape legal action, and also TRUSTED enough by consumers to send their money to, expecting to see a product shipped to them. The two things just don't jibe in reality.


In business, you don't sell just to people you know, and you have to count on the least common denomonator being the customers that will make you yank your hair out if you don't anticipate their needs, and the fact that most aren't tech-savvy.


You wax over the real world nightmare logistics of both obtaining the parts in some weird location, and "just shipping from anywhere in the world". Who said there wouldn't be import/export taxes? And heck, try customs BRIBES! In the type of hellhole you're imagining someone doing this, that's exactly the sort of thing that would be dealt with.

I know Siberia is just a laughably silly example (at least I hope you weren't serious), but it begs the question, where is your REAL example supposed to be?

Psystar or any other legit company would never be located in Siberia, for a multitude of reasons, but most importantly- NO ONE would order from a company located in Siberia, or Outer Oshkosh, or Fookedupistan!



There's no reputation to be developed, because the very enterprise any such company would be trying to delve into, is itself, disreputable. Having some crazy, disreputable location would just be another fatal nail in the coffin.

By the way, this is to say nothing of just the realities of actually trying to do business in any place that's bad enough to be anywhere you'd even imagine evading legal action. You'd likely be dealing with local corruption on such a scale that it'd make hiding from lawsuits the LEAST of your worries. There are REASONS people don't try to set up shop in disreputable corners of the world, in order to conduct legitimate business. Those that do, have costly connections.



HA! My friend, you clearly think people are a lot dumber than I do!
When it comes to having someone ship you a physical product, people do indeed care where they send their money. I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.

By the way, what legitmate way would anyone advertise this?


Because it's not viable, and would be a complete logistics flustercluck. Try running even a legitimate business and do international sales, then get back to me on the logistics of a shady one that's doing little more than shipping a pirated OS across international borders.

Topic doesn't belong in Apple discussions, and has degenerated into a pointless exchange of flamery. moved to the thunderdome, next stop from there is deletion.

[quote name='Hagar' date='Aug 21 2008, 12:30 AM' post='863441']
Topic doesn't belong in Apple discussions, and has degenerated into a pointless exchange of flamery. moved to the thunderdome, next stop from there is deletion.

Wow Hagar, you're a little thin skinned today aren't you?

You know its rare that you can disagree with someone completely yet still there is no anger. It speaks very highly of Zaap. We don't see eye to eye on this in any dimension yet we can still discuss things with no ill will. I wish all forum discussers were as he. Enjoy your Mac, Zaap. As for my literary wanderings, we will see what the market unearths. I have not heard of anything that resembles my ideas that I put forth and probably won't if Psystar goes down in a hail of bullets which they probably will, lest some stroke of luck comes their way. They just postponed their response for another while yet. But on Aug 28th the bell will toll for them to do something in response to the big bad Apple.

BTW there is another company that is doing the offshore thing (nobody knows where they are from) but they are selling complete systems for rich dollars so it will be interesting to see how their location (or lack of one) hinders their startup inertia. Not this one in Florida (http://www.rsolpc.com/news/default.htm) but another one whose name escapes me at the moment. Not this one either (http://www.efi-x.com/index.php?language=english).