The government loves you!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

"b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;"
"i. (S) Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;"
"h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;"

"The US loves Dick Cheney and his wacky and crazy shenanigans! What's he gonna do next?!"

Jon, I don't condone torture, but before blowing the Alarm Bell, have you thought about what if you're whole family was killed by a bomb set by a terrorist. Would you want that person to have a simple conversation with someone that could not use any bit of tools to get the murderer to talk? Try to put it into perspective a little.

Look at it this way.
A terrorist attack happens and even though you know your innocent your arrested. You are then taken some where and tortured even though your innocent you can not take the pain any more and admit to the crimes you didn't commit.
Not only is your life over for no reason, the real terrorist is free to terrorize again.

True, but what if say one of the terrorists from 9/11 somehow got caught (like an actual flyer). You think he would really talk if you sat down and talked with him over a cup o' tea?

Once again, I do not condone torture, I just don't like it when people see "evil" and jump on the "that's bad" bandwagon before thinking, "Hmm, maybe there's another part to this that I don't see."

Now I do this all the time, I'm just trying to point it out.

What happens with torture is that you get them to say what you want them to say, which might not be the truth.

To put it in a "hmm, there's another part..." way. What if your family was wacked by a terrorist, but the police believes you did it. Then they torture you so that you "confess". After that they take down your family for false allegations, and maybe are able to connect them with other crimes. Now they torture them and they also say "ok, ok, we did it" because they don't know any other way.

Now tell me, what happened to the real criminals, and what about your family...

Absolutely and this has been proven many times.

But there is a another major concern with torture. And that is it breeds more hate towards the torturers and ultimately puts the torturer in more danger. For example if one of the guys in Guantanamo Bay got tortured. Then they later released him because it was found he was innocent. Isn't it likely he would return home and spread the new deeper hate he now hs for the US creating new 20 fighters against the US?

That's something to think about.

Guys...it doesn't matter if there are good reasons to torture them, or something to be gained. Of course you might get information out of them, sure. But the whole argument against america torturing its prisoners(I can hardly believe I'm saying that) is that we have laws etc that ban any kind of torturing, no ifs ands or buts.


Laws are laws, and you don't disobey them just because you can. Plus, if the can break that law, where is it going to stop? They can use the "its more important" and "the ends justifies the means" argument for anything. Especially when it's already been done and gotten away with.

Thats also a very valid point. I visited Pakistan two years ago, and most people just love when foreigners visit. But when it is talk about guantanamo and other things the americans does obviously i felt that the tensions raised. I also read it in various publications local and international english like newsweek and time magazine. And I am sure that the prison camp in guantanamo and how they treat prisoners is the number one fertilizer for justifying terrorism against USA.

And what if they caught the actual terrorist?

I do not think it is ANY way right for the U.S. to torture, it's against the law and it is inhumane. I'm just trying to make sure people (including myself) understand the other side of the debate.

(Wouldn't be a good discussion if everyone agreed.)

may anyone one may me that question?
since a lot of time they tried to control you through pc industry do you remember, why nobody controlled mohammed hatta, first on any terrorist headlining list?
dubai refused him entry.
in a country where security services killed president, traded weapons illegaly with iran through israel to finace terrorism in central america and finaced south american regimes is possible to accept that they have done or let it done by financed people?
Bin laden was under cia protection in mid luly 2001 in Dubai, do you know that or no?
any torture is doubely illegal.
they let you believe that mullah omar escaped in afganistan desert on little motorcycle.
No it's a joke
They destroyed world economy with that.

Please don't repeat government propaganda to me. I can see right through it.

If "al-CIA-da" attacks you because they "want to take away your freedom", then bush takes away your freedom, then that makes him "al-CIA-da", and the "terrorists" have already won. So whos the terrorist? It certainly isn't some guy with a towel on his head defending his family.

It doesn't matter what who believes about torture. It is ILLEGAL. period. And those who committed the crime should be held accountable, and put on trial for their war crimes. Just a reminder that the Nazis used to torture. I am sure they said that they could obtain information from those "communist jews" through those gas chambers. Although, I don't think that even Hitler did things as evil as what Bush is doing. Go google Hitler's speeches.

See, if you can get a society to accept something as evil as toture in this manner, you can get them to accept anything.

This is one of the most bone-headed posts I've ever read. I'm sorry but it is.



Yeah, I guess those terrorists were defending their families when they flew planes into our buildings.....
or wait, it's a conspiracy theory! My bad.....



Oh really...... tell that to one of the jews that went through the holocaust.... 10 MILLION people died Jon. Now Bush has done a lot of boneheaded things (all presidents do.... Bush probably more than all of them) but he has not committed genocide, and PLEASE don't post some thing about how Bush did something that allowed another leader somewhere to kill people. Bush did NOT condemn massive numbers of people to their deaths. It's a shame to the Jewish community to compare the two.

Now I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN TORTURE! I'm just trying to show why it was used.

This is such a divisive topic but one worth discussing. History has a tendency to repeat itself. Perhaps the words of Edward R. Murrow would be most appropriate:

He was a far more articulate and intelligent a man than I. I would just add that there is something far greater than ourselves in peril here. For those who think the price we've paid in our global war on terror is warranted and required, I would argue you haven't kept yourself adequately informed. You must certainly entertain a very limited view on what has transpired. The very foundation on which freedom and democracy relies has been rocked to its core. The rule of law has been subverted. Constitutional principles have been misappropriated, contorted, and abused. Transparency of governance has been severely curtailed. You might argue that these were done for all the right reasons but the precedence is beyond frightening. We have abandoned many of those principles for which so many have fought and died. There was a time when these principles were revolutionary and unproven but the people had faith they would lead to a better way of life. Are we turning our backs on that faith?

Fearful men without the stomach for any true conviction have usurped the national interest. We might understand the motives and pressures that lead to such actions but that does not excuse them. The ends do not always justify the means.

Fact shows that they don´t. If they did it is more luck than anything else. I believe that you will get just as much response by professional police work, and the chances are that you will get "him/her on your side" instead. There are simply too few cases where torture really show to give any results.

And also common law has the the principle "ten guilty free than one innocent convicted". Of course, if your wish is to live in a police state you would rather believe "ten innocent convicted than one guilty free". You just dont apply law and methods to please your thirst for revenge and hatred. You do it to protect the society, meaning the entire society necessarily also those you don´t feel you identify with or have different opinions.

Whitness the body count little one, It is over 1.4 million so far, and climbing, just keep waiting.

So you believe the gobber-mint's official fairy tale? I suppose you believe in UFOs, and bigfoot too don't you? Don't get me started on your childish conspiracy theories about men with towels on their heads that are under your bed, and in your closet at night. I suppose you believe that the Gulf of Tonkin wasn't staged either do you?

The CIA has been running those people since Reagan. Bin Laden was, and still is, a CIA tactition. Grow up. You weren't even a live back then, so pick another topic before you decide to open your mouth, and spew bullshit from your entertainment tube, when you know nothing about what you speak of.

Stop parroting your boob tube.

Was this you?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2206749/Bo...st-attacks.html

I am not a George Bush fan....

But the fact that you consider his atrocities as evil is Hitler's shows how much of a fool you truly are.

You're telling me to grow up? How about you use your head for once and stop believing that everytime something goes "bad" for you, it's because some government politician is intentionally trying to cause it. Have you ever thought that maybe it's your fault and not other people's for once? You blame every bad thing that happens in the US on the government.

I also find it funny that you're defending the terrorists here, but keep on disrespecting them by saying they are "men with towels on their heads."

Now we're both in a heated discussion throwing ad hominem around and neither of us have any hope to convince the other that what we think is right, nothing left to just get our view across..... shall we continue?

Now it all makes sense! lol

If another country invaded my town today, I would fight back, and yes, I would kill every one of them. Thats what happens when another country invades your home. People are not going to bend over and play dead for you. They are going to fight back, and more power to them. Don't sit there and tell me that if some demon blew your mother's head off, shot your brother in front of you, then laughed about it, that you wouldn't go after them. You would be the lowest form of human being if you didn't. Iraq was INVADED. YES, they are going to fight back.

http://www.toxicjunction.com/get.asp?i=V4132
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASz-iKOOnyI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl2VBaWt50A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8AzUni4Mhk
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...videoid=7114811
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...;videoid=292091


Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Clinton, Mau, Lee Chang, Lincoln, King George III, King George II, King George I, Saul, Che Guevero, Fidel Castro, the list goes on, and on, and on. Warlords, thugs, and those that profit from war. Put yourself in the list, and join their ranks since you support them.

We should add the Colonel from KFC, him being a "Colonel" and all! x150


SticMAN
+1

I find it quite sick that liberals are backing mass murderers these days.

Well, what was good enough for your Grandmother, is good enough for me!

SticMAN

djet and Jon lets just keep things civil here please. This discussion isn't actually going so badly but less getting angry with one another because of their views and more arguing against it.

Also djet I actually appreciate that you've actually brought up the try and see the other end of the discussion here because to have a proper discussion someone needs to.

Now I'm not sure if Hitler and Bush are in the same boat but one thing about Hitler was he was open about it all. Bush isn't. He cleverly discusses the murders he commits as an attempt to liberate and bring freedom and at the same time not lifting a finger to help places which need it (Darfur, Zimbabwe,...) because they have no oil or any strategic interests. Now I'm not clearly saying Bush is the worst of the two but he's laid down the seeds of a way of thinking in the US government that is extremely worrying for future generations and is likely to cause further suffering around the world in at home.

SticMAN, if I see one more bs post from you your account will be temporarily suspended. This forum isn't the place for childish comments so grow up.

At least you're not deleting them anymore!

@Mebster:
I love it when people leave things public! It's all that "transparency" I like! My question would then be, who decides what is BS or not? If I find your comments on this not only bordering on ridiculous but completely ill informed, just how do you know that nothing is being done to help Zimbabwe?! I have first hand knowledge on aid being diverted from companies in the USA to help the opposition in Zim! Not only are you i'll informed, but misguided in your responses! Which is what my point is, If anyone cannot substantiate anything with facts, one should be set right!

Also:
".... liberals are backing mass murderers these days"
I don't mind being called a mass murderer, but a Liberal! Please i find this a insult!

If you bothered to check my D.O.B and you bothered check my personal background before the attacks began, you will realize that these comments are far from childish! They merely remind everybody of how ridiculous and unfounded most of JohnnydaSewage's topics are!

Or

Is it a "I am GOD and I will do what I feel fit?"

SticMAN
"I have seen things, and done things, that will make your heart jump!"

We are torturing people, we are playing with words and definitions to make it seem like were not (the US). We are keeping prisoners off American soil so that they don't have the same rights any other prisoner would have. 9/11 was an inside job. The war on Terror is fake. Its a war on democracy and civil liberties.

President George W. Bush is allowed to do anything he wants, all under the pretext of 9/11.

Wake up people, this isn't our country anymore (if you hail from the US), it has been stolen from us.

Our government should just come out and say "were evil", I bet people still wouldn't do anything about it as long as they can get their "US weekly" and celebrity gossip.

Most Americans are ignorant, uninformed masses, who fear any kind of change. We did this to ourselves, are we really surprised this is the way its turned out?

Quit the lies, quit the denial, quit the fake sense of "patriotism". Wake up, realize your government, your company, and your leaders are corrupt. Do something about it! Boycott, protest, march, quit paying taxes. Collective action will bring all these people to their knees.

Banks get multi-billion dollar bailouts in less than a day, but we have to fight for years to get anything meaningful for ourselves as American citizens who don't really ask for much to be quite honest. Our system is corrupt, its time for a change.

I ran across this last night. Its good information about the upcoming crisis, and how it is a true "conspiracy" of ideas among those in power.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eBqwtRubyJM

Great video!

The mission of our soldiers is to be "warriors, builders, and peacemakers" (as ordered by Gen. Petraeus).And as Gen. James Mattis ordered his Marines in Anbar "First of all, do no harm.".Plenty of folks thought Gens. Mattis and Petreaus were mistaken in issuing these orders. And perhaps Gen. Mattis' order "First of all, do no harm" sounds kinda wimpy.The embrace of torture is wholly against the orders of Gens. Petraeus.That is why the embrace of waterboarding by our politicians back home is morally shameful, and is a disastrous strategic mistake, that has gravely harmed the mission of our Soldiers and Marines."Never participate in torture" is a very wise code-of-conduct .America's top military leaders live by the
code.America's politicians should live by it too.
I am NOTadvocating coddling these men. They deserve to be treated as prisoners, no better, no worse.They've given up their right to be in free society, but WE, our military, are specifically PROHIBITED from mistreatment of prisoners. It is illegal, immoral and unethical. It is specifically enumerated in the laws of our land, the treaties that we have agreed to in the international community, and the rules that we hold our troops accountable with under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The very act of mistreatment of prisoners is degrading to our own troops and turns them into something we would rather they not be.

Laws aren't just written for us to follow, they are the structure and foundation of our entire society. The very thing that each of us active duty or retired has sworn to protect, uphold, and defend as servants of the government, and the People of the United States.

If anyone thinks the enemies of America are laughing at us now, just wait until they see us turn into a land without the rule of law and freedom. Our liberty is what they hate most about us. Every freedom, every Liberty that we flush down the toilet in response to these barbaric, illiterate thugs, is a victory for them. That's exactly what AQ wants to happen.

Maybe I'm naive, but I trust George Bush, to a certain extent. I truly believe that he is doing these things to actually fight a threat that he actually believes exists.

Here's my problem with Bush: he isn't following the rules. While I can have a little respect for the man who bends the rules or steps outside them for what he sees to be benign purposes, when the leader of a country does this he leads the whole land on a short road to chaos. The rules and laws that bind the government are what keep us free. While I can appreciate that sometimes the law keep us from catching the bad guy, the law also protects me. Not always directly, but indirectly, because the government must sooner or later start to think that maybe none of the laws apply to it.

Here's one of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite movies. It illustrates exactly what I'm trying to say.

That video clip was PERFECT! HAA HAA!

Unfortunately I do not trust Bush. I find him to be a short-sighted, cowardly, fool who is easily manipulated into performing the will of his minders. He might have all the best intentions in the world but what good are those when our actions have destroyed the public trust, obliterated our reputation amongst our neighbors, and weakened the democratic protections for which so many fought and died. No sir. He is not to be trusted. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Equally unfortunate is the fact that even after he leaves office, the worst could be yet to come! International law allows any member country to file charges for crimes against humanity/war crimes and petition for extradition... as we have seen with Spain and Chile's Augusto Pinochet. Even if Bush does grant a pardon to all involved, and it is believed he will, if they ever leave the country, they will be subject to possible arrest and trial. While the reputation of the U.S. is battered and bruised, it hasn't completely vanished! Countries on friendly terms with the U.S., or merely wishing to be, will be reluctant to do so. Our enemies will not be so hesitant. What will happen to the credibility of the International Court should they ignore such requests? The U.S. has been a long time supporter of the courts especially in the cases of Balkan war crimes. The U.N. is already weakened by various divisions. It is quite possible this issue could bring to an end this international experiment should the next president not handle it in a decisive and reassuring manner.

I know many of you would be overjoyed with the prospects of a world without a United Nations. I have mixed feelings myself. It is rife with corruption and its ambitions tower over its meager effectiveness in colossal fashion. Maybe the world WOULD be better off but as we have seen with the political collapse of Iraq in relation to the Middle East, there might be unforeseen consequences.

If I could ask anything of our new president, it would be to fully investigate all allegations under the observance of an internationally appointed advisory committee and have any found culpable stand trial domestically or, if we really wanted to put our money where our mouths are, extradite them to The Hague to stand trial just like we have demanded of so many others. I guess we could argue against such oversight with claims of sovereignty and in that I believe we would be marginally justified. However, why deny the international community the benefit of Ronald Reagan's use of that now famous Russian proverb, "Doveryai, no proveryai?" "Trust, but verify!"

That video clip was great!

Anyway, Bush is not the one to blame for the limitations of our civil rights. It's our fault for electing him and then continuing to support him because we were too afraid to stand up to the "patriotism" that flourished after 9-11.

Amen!

Bush and his neo-con's have given the country an i'll conceived, ILL planed long-term conflict, that will take endless amounts of money, hocking oursoul to China... The critical mistake made was the neocons believed we wouldn't need many troops(rumsfedt's you go to war with the Army you have) to secure the place and everything has flowed from that bad decision. We went into a war in Iraq without a clue as to the potential consequences, or in the worst case, a defiance of intelligence estimates and recommendations of Sr officers. Not enough planning, poor strategy for the end-game, not enough resources. We were undermanned and the full burden was put on the troops on the ground to extend their time in country, shorten their time at home and continue beyond their ETS date.

IMO Bush, Rumsfeldt, and the merry band of neo-cons should all be thrown in Levenworth for dereliction of duty.
There was the factor of trying to fight the war on the cheap and without tasking our people to play a role in it. That's a huge miscalculation for which we will suffer for decades to come. The number of troop strength allowed to participate was a political decision in line with the overall strategic goal of not inconveniencing the 99% of America who are NOT the military and their familes, too much in this war.

on Sept. 12, 2001. The whole nation was pizzed and poised to kick someone's azz. Remember the entire United States Congress signing "God Bless America" on the Capitol steps? Remember the universal support given to the President in the aftermath of that dreadful day? Remember the yellow ribbons, the flags?

That's gone now and The fault for that lies at the feet of the Commander in Chief who failed to call us to the task, who failed to challenge our young people to serve, who declined to give our people a role to play in the war, who decided not to pay for the war, but to borrow the money while refusing to expand the military to a level sufficient to guarantee victory in the shortest possible time.Bush and his neo-cons opted to fight a low-key, extended series of small wars for decades, rather than a whole-hog, Katy-bar-the-door . They were clueless in COIN operations.


We strayed from our Constitutional principles when we invaded Iraq. And, when confronted with facts that told us that our primary reasons for our offensive were false, we opted to "stay the course". This is a "save face" decision.

I can care less what side of the isle you fall on,there are a-holes, idiots and reprobates in both camps (and, in great numbers). What IS important is the fact that we are the ruled, and there are those who rule us. The reasons for their decisions are beyond us in all reality. But, we often have opinions based upon what they tell us. Well, I believe about 0% of what this admin tells me. So, suffice it to say, anything that is said to me in regard to Iraq, I say this... I will believe it when I see it!!! a result-driven thing, I guess.

I AM a result-driven person. And, thus far, I have seen great stride and effort on the part of my brothers and sisters in the US Army and US Marine corps.

But, I have not seen anything near proficient results from this admin in this regard. For 4 3/4 years This administration was substandard in choice, planning and execution and refused to impliment the correct Strategy as called for in the new Army/USMC COIN manual. Mistakes were made” in Iraq ---fair enough, that's going to happen. To remain silent, while a war is mishandled, is dereliction of duty. Rumsfeld's silence, in his letter of resignation , was one last dereliction of his duty. Donald Rumsfeld claimed no responsibility or credit for the cluster frock .This wasn't the way Rumford’s "Shock and Awe" strategy was supposed to work.
Hence Rumsfeld's terse letter of resignation, which should have been even shorter, and submitted much sooner: "I was wrong, therefore, I resign."Rumsfeld should have done us ALL a favor and resigned the summer of 2003 when it was clear there was ZERO post-war plan.
I believe history will place Rumsfeld alongside MacNamara as the two worst SecDefs in American history. MacNamara was a brilliant liar who was wrong and admitted it. Rummy will still be laying the shine on the Lord God Jehovah.

Gens. Petraeus and Mattis, who figured out over four years ago that our strategy was fubar'd; devised a better strategy; that strategy "in plain sight" as FM 3-24 COIN manual (while the clueless neocon politicians never realized that those Army/USMC field manuals actually mean something); then the useless Rumsfeld, Rove, and Gonzales were pushed out .And so the war finally started running at least down a better track. I will say, that these fine generals, and their soldiers and Marines who are being required to do things no other American army has been asked to do (diplomat, nation builder, engineer, and counselor). have received disgracefully weak support, from the White House, from Congress, and from both political parties.



BUT , President George W. Bush (Chief Executive and Commander in Chief) has the burden of bearing full responsibility for all matters from the date of his induction. Sending men to death is something every combat commander must do. The plain truth is that buck ultimately stops on the President's desk. May time and history have mercy upon his decisions for our people and our nation.

This is old, but I just found it this morning. I'm going to have to admit that the US does indeed torture.

Read this article all the way to the bottom, where you'll see the victim give specific examples of the psychological torture he underwent at that Guantanamo hellhole.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6659585.stm

Read it, O Americans, and weep with me for the sad state of our country.

"j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;"

nice !

Seriously, all I can say is that alot of people will do whatever their sick little minds want if they can convince themselves they are righteous. Torture is illegal, and should not be tolerated, period. I can convince myself all day long that it would be ok for me to drive home after a few too many drinks, but it is illegal. If I get caught, I pay the price, period.

I got a simple question, maybe someone can answer it.

The US soldiers that have been photographed torturing "terrorists" seemed to enjoy what they were doing with a {censored} smile on their faces... but why torturing when you could use specific drugs to make them tell the truth. Huh ?

The soldiers in question probably think that the person that they are torturing IS CERTAINLY a terrorist and therefore gets a rise out of sucking the life out of this human being (revenge). On the drugs front I completely agree, however, we were told in the 80's (and before) to "just say no" to drugs. This has carried over to our military haha. Our military would rather do it the old fashioned way. Hell, lets just get a baseball bat out and start smashin' in some skulls.

Maybe some curb stomping would be good too...

F-u-c-k the military.

(this whole post was sarcasm)

Maybe we could just treat other people like we would like to be treated. It's not up to individuals to decide what happens to people, even if they justify it to themselves. Some people get a sick thrill from hurting others...I don't know, maybe they weren't held often enough when they were babies...

Or maybe the answer is much more simple than that. You get a 5 dogs from the pound, all 5 are the same type of dog yet for some reason all 5 have different habits, problems, personalities, etc.

Humans are no different. WE ARE ANIMALS. Some of us are kind, some of us are dicks. There is an incredible amount of variation within our own species when it comes to the mind. We are born with our base personality, it flows like a river. Life experiences are like throwing rocks into the river, damming it up, redirecting its flow, however, the river still flows in the same general direction. Thats the way we are. We have free will! However, its hard to hold onto, most of us our slaves to our base instincts and personalities. If you have a good personality, its not a problem. If you have a bad one, its bad for everyone hehe.

We should all promote peace regardless of whether we expect that peace to take place. If children grow up in a world where peace is valued, they will value it as well, even if at first, the peace is just a mask. Were the same way. If any of you guys are in your 20's, 30's or younger, you grew up in a world of diversity, multiculturalism, and new ideas. Even though it was based purely on the premise of "free" trade and globalization, that desire to help the whole, to understand the other side, is the unintended biproduct of this, and its a wonderful thing that this aspect of our world is changing.

how many of them do they really catch. Do oyu honestly expect me to believe that a young herdsman knows how to fly a 747 or even better can extact and aerosolise anthrax. you beleive in the governments propaganda. Look if I'm smart enough to say weaponize anthrax I AINT GON GET CAUGHT.

I'm HOPING you're joking about this. "Truth" drugs only exist in movies and tv shows. No such thing exists in real life.

As I am reading this, I am finding this kind of funny but sadly...

I hate living in the United States, I miss Holland.

I live in a state full of Republicans (middle of no where Kansas) and a lot of them talk about Guantanamo... It sickens me. Bush would fit in here....

Bush = Stalin.