Freedom Haters Beware

[rollcage]

@killbot: The one thing that really bothers me about 9/11 being an inside job is the argument that the towers falling looked like a demolition. If the government really wanted the attack to look authentic (making sure no one would think it might be a demolition), why would try to make sure the towers fell straight down? Why take all the extra planning and man power to make sure they didn't just fall over?

 

Aren't the 7 people that are still alive people that were going to hijack other planes but failed?

 

To the WWII argument, it was a team effort, everyone played their part. The United States eventually contributed with their mass production and in keeping Japan off Russia's back. Both Britain and Russia were in it from the beginning, Germany had to fight a war on two different fronts. And without France...................the location of D-day would not have been Normandy?

[Running With Scissors]

Britain and her Allies were also fighting wars on two different fronts. North Africa and Western Europe. Plus the Battle of Britain

 

Russia didn't enter the war until Germany broke an agreement with them by invading further east.

[rollcage]

Britain and her Allies were also fighting wars on two different fronts. North Africa and Western Europe. Plus the Battle of Britain

 

Britain did have it pretty tough, they even had to fight France

[Running With Scissors]

Thats just a forgotten hobby of ours that needs resurrecting.

Old habits die hard.

Beating them at Rugby just doesn't cut it anymore.

[mac_cute]

Britain did have it pretty tough, they even had to fight France

 

 

[killbot1000]

I used to follow the whole 9/11 truth thing too killbot. But then I stopped cause I realized we're too into the New World Order already. There's no point in trudging on with the movement. And there's another difference between us, I hate the country, you don't.

 

I Hate our country's policies, I hate our leaders, I hate the corporate interests that have taken control of our country, don't get me wrong, but I don't necessarily hate the people, I think there are a lot of good, thoughtful people in this country...maybe there's just more in WA state or something? I don't know. hehe.

[Alessandro17]

I Hate our country's policies, I hate our leaders, I hate the corporate interests that have taken control of our country, don't get me wrong, but I don't necessarily hate the people, I think there are a lot of good, thoughtful people in this country...maybe there's just more in WA state or something? I don't know. hehe.

 

Funny, I am not American but I feel almost exactly like you.

It seems to me that the majority of people in the USA are decent, nice, helpful.

[JonTheSavage]

I love Jericho, its a great great show, but its a work of fiction.No, the evidence I am referring to has a lot to do with the physical buildings themselves.1. 7 of the Hijackers are still alive2. No steel building either before or after 9/11 has ever collapsed from fire3. The buildings imploded, in exactly the same way, they did not fall over, etc. They fell strait down. This indicates demolition4. The steel supports for the buildings were sheared at a diagonal angle, this was discovered after the collapse, steel beams like these are only sheared diagonally when a building is going to be demolished.5. After the collapse there was still molten steel at the site, steel does not become molten from the temperature of burning jet fuel, it needs the heat of magnesium (which was also found at the scene) to actually melt through the steel beams, this material is used to actually cut/melt the steel beams on other demolition projects.6. Building 7 collapsed from misc falling debris from the two buildings, its also a steel building that collapsed from fire? Gimme a break!I'm not just some whack-job dude. I have {censored} to back up what I think.In regards to Japan, I have been there, I lived there for a few months, and I loved it. The way they organized police was amazing, and I think its a lot better than the system we have. (Not that Japan doesn't have its own problems, racism being the biggest one I saw while over there, not toward me, but toward Koreans).I think my societal organization argument speaks for itself.I am not bringing up a conspiracy, I am not telling you what's true, I am only stating that this evidence is there, and that nobody (especially the government) has had anything to say about it. And some of these pieces of evidence are quite compelling, if there was an alternative explanation to these I might be compelled to change my point of view, but so far the evidence would indicate what I am saying.Not to mention, this has been done before and how quickly we forget...World War 2. FDR a full year before the war started would not have anything to do with negotiations or talking with Japan, when Japan would send Envoys, FDR would send them back, we froze Japanese Bank accounts here, cut off 100% of their oil supply. Before Pearl Harbor the people in the US were greatly opposed to joining the war. Days before Pearl Harbor, FDR got an intelligence report that a Japanese fleet was moving in the South Pacific, he ignored the intelligence, all of this was used as a convenient excuse to get into the war. FDR was also part of the banking elite of this country so I wouldn't put it past him to do such a think for some "greater purpose".We are merely the empire of choice at the moment, all empires fall. (if people think I hate my country, they are wrong, I love my country more than anybody, but we need to not be an empire, this is the only way our country will last in the long run)

Wow Killbot. Welcome to 9/11 truth.

Quoting the bible?I thought your sources were bad, but this is a step too far

You quote a bunch of rich sicko elitist scum. I figured I would throw in an equal opposition to your ignorance, and lack of common damned sense. Guns will never be banned, because gun owners will never give them up.HEY BUDDY. Im gonna give you a fack of life. Someone breaks into my house without my permission, I blow them away. Its plain and simple. Don't care what you are, or who you are, or who you represent. Step on my property without my permission, its endgame.

"Definitely not in my country. We respect the police much more than we respect our politicians.

The Jews respected the Guestapo in Nazi Germany too.

[Special-K]

I Hate our country's policies, I hate our leaders, I hate the corporate interests that have taken control of our country, don't get me wrong, but I don't necessarily hate the people, I think there are a lot of good, thoughtful people in this country...maybe there's just more in WA state or something? I don't know. hehe.

I hate all of that too. I utterly despise it. As for the people, there might be alot where you live, but not on my side of the country (east coast). All the people here make me ashamed to be white. That's why whenever anyone asks my heritage, first thing I say is Columbian. Basically it's like watching an MTV show.

 

Funny, I am not American but I feel almost exactly like you.

It seems to me that the majority of people in the USA are decent, nice, helpful.

Depends where you live here.

 

Im gonna give you a fack of life. Someone breaks into my house without my permission, I blow them away. Its plain and simple. Don't care what you are, or who you are, or who you represent. Step on my property without my permission, its endgame.

We can tell that your from Texas.

(Plus you spelled fact wrong. Your definitely from the south.)

[Superhai]

Im gonna give you a fack of life. Someone breaks into my house without my permission, I blow them away. Its plain and simple. Don't care what you are, or who you are, or who you represent.

 

I give you fact of life. As long as there are guns there will always be someone which are faster than you and have bigger gun than you and care even more less than you...

[socal swimmer]

ugh. more 9/11 "truth" {censored}. We've already been through this. THERE IS NO GOOD EVIDENCE!

 

at least not from reputable sources. which means there is no good evidence.

 

But lets not rehash that here. go back and search the other two threads on it.

 

 

 

and carrying a gun does nothing more than make you more likely to get shot.

[Ongeloof]

/Dumbest argument anywhere.

This whole website is for Apple, Macs & OSx86. Just because their is a forum we you can post this stuff, doesn't mean you should. We have has countless threads on this before and they all end up turning south...

 

 

Think Mark

[mac_cute]

"...and carrying a gun does nothing more than make you more likely to get shot."

 

Good Thinking...

[killbot1000]

This whole website is for Apple, Macs & OSx86. Just because their is a forum we you can post this stuff, doesn't mean you should. We have has countless threads on this before and they all end up turning south...

Think Mark

 

Yeah, so lets just not talk about it, that would make the world's problems a lot better...(sarcasm).

 

Honestly, this section is for this, we can talk about the "Big Issues [Real Life]". If that's a problem, you don't have to post here.

[Numberzz]

This whole website is for Apple, Macs & OSx86. Just because their is a forum we you can post this stuff, doesn't mean you should. We have has countless threads on this before and they all end up turning south...

Think Mark

I didn't say the thread was dumb, I said that that the argument that was in the original post. It explained how taking away guns from a society could cause more people to die. Learn2Post.

[mac_cute]

Yeah, so lets just not talk about it, that would make the world's problems a lot better...(sarcasm).

 

Honestly, this section is for this, we can talk about the "Big Issues [Real Life]". If that's a problem, you don't have to post here.

 

 

Sure,this place is to discuss "Big issues [Real Life]".If in your world there is no a "Real Life" then skip this thread

 

@Numberzz

 

Do not worry:your idea was clear from the begining...

 

"I didn't say the thread was dumb, I said that that the argument that was in the original post. It explained how taking away guns from a society could cause more people to die. Learn2Post."

 

If you let me add this: Readb4Post and then Learn2Post

[capt_cope]

I've got to be honest, I only made it to the end of the first page. Most of the posts were mind searingly stupid by that point. And I do love how the little forum "gods" step into threads they don't enjoy and spread their wisdom on how this is a *insert item here* forum, so don't post this real life {censored} in the section marked "real life."

 

On to the matter at hand. *Those of you in other countries, (meaning those of you who aren't Citizens of the US)really should can it. Not trying to be rude, but you're opinion doesn't really mean much when talking about gun control in the US. It's about as pointless as me commenting on file sharing in the UK.*

First and foremost it states fairly clearly in our bill of rights (you know that document that lists the rights given to us by our creator, held self evident, so on and so forth? Ringing any bells?) that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Now a whole lot of people want to say "AHA! Got ya! Look it says guns are only for the forming of a well regulated militia, and there isn't any need for a militia now that we've got the National Guard!" But, they're just plain wrong. Look at the wording, and notice it states "...right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." It did not say "right of the militia to keep and bear Arms..." Rather they are speaking of the right of the PEOPLE. It is the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and our duty, as free men and women, to maintain a well regulated Militia (aka the National Guard.) And yes, it's a right, which is something the government has no business meddling with. Our government is supposed to do one thing: protect our rights. And militia or no, it is the right of the people to keep and bear arms. End of story.

 

 

And to be honest, all the libs whining about how there are lots of crazy people and criminals with guns does is make me want MORE. I mean really now, if there are that many armed, homicidal, crazy dudes wandering the streets, I want a glock in each hand, and my mossberg in the trunk. That said, I live in one of two states so liberal that concealed carry is outlawed. And while I can strap my glock on (in plain sight) and be well within the law, I choose not to. I don't feel particularly threatened in the areas I frequent, and I recall reading somewhere that the vast majority of the people shot aren't just random strangers shot on a whim. They are usually victims of a drug deal gone bad, or something domestic. Since I don't have someone living with me who's going to shoot me, and I don't buy drugs, I think I'll be ok.

And if that's not enough for you, keep in mind: a gun is nothing more than a tool, just like a car. Just like a car it is capable of killing many people if handled in-correctly. And just like a car, if one guy's lost control with one, you had better hope you are better with yours than he is with his.

[Running With Scissors]

And to be honest, all the libs whining about how there are lots of crazy people and criminals with guns does is make me want MORE. I mean really now, if there are that many armed, homicidal, crazy dudes wandering the streets, I want a glock in each hand, and my mossberg in the trunk.

 

Sorry didnt know we had Rambo on our hands.

 

On to the matter at hand. *Those of you in other countries, (meaning those of you who aren't Citizens of the US)really should can it. Not trying to be rude, but you're opinion doesn't really mean much when talking about gun control in the US. It's about as pointless as me commenting on file sharing in the UK.*

 

Those of us in other countries are simply telling you our thoughts from a different POV and trying to explain despite most guns being outlawed we are still here and hav'nt all been murdered. Why because the are less guns and the guns that are here are that expensive your average crackpot wouldn't afford one. Thanks to gun control

[capt_cope]

Right your point of view is all well and good, but it's pointless in a discussion about gun control in the US. Might as well start discussing apples having eaten nothing but oranges.

[Running With Scissors]

I'm simply saying in the UK we have very few guns and even less gun crime.

Where as in the US you have a lot more guns and a lot more gun crime.

[Superhai]

Right your point of view is all well and good, but it's pointless in a discussion about gun control in the US. Might as well start discussing apples having eaten nothing but oranges.

 

Why wouldn't others point of view matter? Most of your bill of rights are made after looking at what other countries made right or wrong at that time. And it is possible to change it if it is not suiting the current opinion of the the citizens of the US (I presume you still live in a democratic country). It is of course you who will eventually vote for changes, but not listening to what others have experienced or have knowledge about... is at best -- american...

[daskog]

Don't argue with fools, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

[capt_cope]

While you are correct, that you have fewer guns in the uk, and less crime, it doesn't follow that less guns equals less crime in the US. Personally I think the violence and crime problems go far beyond guns here in the US, but since this isn't a thread about societal problems I'll save my thoughts on that.

 

The Bill of Rights was created from rights that were found to be self-evident. That's an important phrase, "we find these truths to be self-evident." It implies that they are beyond reproach. They cannot be argued against any more than you can argue against the fact that a pen rolled off the edge of a desk will hit the ground if nothing stops its fall. And it should be noted that the Declaration of Independence states that the GOVERNMENT may be altered or abolished if it doesn't protect these rights for the people. It does not say that the rights can be altered if it suits the government.

And while the expeirence of others is a valuable tool for guiding actions, it needs to be taken in context. I just read an article the other day about the Intuit, and how they have far fewer health problems related to their diet (which is traditionally mostly meat and fat, with a small amount of vegetables.) And while it was interesting, it doesn't mean that their diet would do me much good here in Wisconsin. If I tried to apply their diet to my lifestyle here, with the meats available here, I'd likely die an obese man.

I live in a different society than people living in the UK. And while their experiences with gun control are interesting, they aren't terribly valid for me or the society I'm a part of. Their experiences are completely different, and are set in a completely different cultural context. Which is why I really don't hold much merit to any arguments for or against gun control from people living in a different country.

[socal swimmer]

While you are correct, that you have fewer guns in the uk, and less crime, it doesn't follow that less guns equals less crime in the US. Personally I think the violence and crime problems go far beyond guns here in the US, but since this isn't a thread about societal problems I'll save my thoughts on that.

 

The Bill of Rights was created from rights that were found to be self-evident. That's an important phrase, "we find these truths to be self-evident." It implies that they are beyond reproach. They cannot be argued against any more than you can argue against the fact that a pen rolled off the edge of a desk will hit the ground if nothing stops its fall. And it should be noted that the Declaration of Independence states that the GOVERNMENT may be altered or abolished if it doesn't protect these rights for the people. It does not say that the rights can be altered if it suits the government.

And while the expeirence of others is a valuable tool for guiding actions, it needs to be taken in context. I just read an article the other day about the Intuit, and how they have far fewer health problems related to their diet (which is traditionally mostly meat and fat, with a small amount of vegetables.) And while it was interesting, it doesn't mean that their diet would do me much good here in Wisconsin. If I tried to apply their diet to my lifestyle here, with the meats available here, I'd likely die an obese man.

I live in a different society than people living in the UK. And while their experiences with gun control are interesting, they aren't terribly valid for me or the society I'm a part of. Their experiences are completely different, and are set in a completely different cultural context. Which is why I really don't hold much merit to any arguments for or against gun control from people living in a different country.

 

The constitution includes a clause for making amendments. If we think something is wrong, or should be changed, we can change it. Even the Bill of Rights (including that famous 2nd amendment) was itself a collection of amendments. While it is the current law of the land, we can argue that it should be changed without being "mind-searingly stupid".

 

Carrying a weapon in public actually increases your chances of being a victim of murder or other violent crime. so you can walk around with a glock in each hand, but you are really just causing yourself more danger.

 

now lets go back to at least pretending to respect other viewpoints. kthx.

[killbot1000]

I'm simply saying in the UK we have very few guns and even less gun crime.

Where as in the US you have a lot more guns and a lot more gun crime.

 

You are 100% correct, but there are other reasons for this violence that the UK doesn't have to deal with.

 

In the US, race is still a big issue to a lot of people (including a lot of police officers) there are lots of neighborhoods that are self-segregated, because the people who live there cant afford to live anywhere else, meaning we have a big class gap in the US too.

 

The government so far in our country has been very pro-big business, what this means is we have a lot of guns, weapons, tanks, etc. but we fail to give our citizens healthcare, adequate social programs, education, etc.

 

This lack of education, coupled with desperation due to an unequal class and race structure, in a lot of ways drives people to be violent.

 

We also have a lot of illegal immigration, which, while I do not personally feel strongly about, generates a lot of racism within this country, you will often here people and even some politicians say "we should round up all the Mexicans and kick them out of this country, make them go home!"

 

Little do these people realize that these "Mexicans" are vital to the US economy, they are part of the vestiges of Slavery that still exist in this country. That institution did not go away, it only changed into very cheap, unfair labor that allows us to have the kind of low food costs that we enjoy so much in this country, which is why everybody is so fat hehe.

 

Also the US is big, if you are near the coast, in a bigger city, you will generally find that the people are more enlightened, reason being, they have to deal with and learn how to interact with many different kinds of people (Even here in WA we have the whole spectrum: Indians, Asians, Africans (from Africa), Mexicans, poor people, rich people, etc.) This gives people who live in these big metropolitan areas a different and more accepting view of the world.

 

The people who live in the middle of the US (not the Coasts) have a heightened fear of these kinds of people, because you see these people grew up with a bunch of people exactly like themselves, and they like it, they don't want, and don't think they have to deal with a change in the way they behave, etc. This is where much of the fear mongering comes from.

 

The average American citizen isn't very smart as well, this also helps contribute to meaningless violence, people feel there is no way out when in reality there are options available to them, people in the US being dumb is not their fault, its in reality their own leaders who have failed them. Who can blame the average US citizen?:

 

We get a very substandard education

We get fed absolute {censored} from the media

90% of our publications talk about shoes, celebrities, drinking, blank blank blank, etc.

This leads to a lot of people talking about "America's next top model" rather than "Hey did you hear about that {censored}ed up law that just got passed?"

This prevents the American people from organizing, and protesting and keeping the government in check when it fails its own citizens. People here don't complain about the government, most of the time the thing I hear is "oh well theres absolutely nothing we can do about it though...oh well...oh did you hear about [insert something superficial here]"

 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so far the only squeaky wheel left in the US are the evangelical Christians, so far they are getting what they want, the rest of us need to stand up and fight for what we want.

 

Thats all.