Forceman Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Vladimir Vukicevic of the Firefox team stumbled on some questionable practices from Apple while trying to improve the performance of Firefox. Apparently, Apple is using some undocumented APIs that give Safari a 500% performance advantage over other browsers. Of course, "undocumented" means that non-Apple developers have to try and reverse-engineer these interfaces to get the same level of performance. You really have to wonder what Apple is thinking, considering the kind of retaliation Microsoft has gotten for similar practices. (Anyone remember "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run"?) http://blog.vlad1.com/2008/02/28/finding-t...x-turbo-button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.nub Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 If you're going to post things like that, at least get it right... Edit: Slashdot seems to have picked up on this, and in typical style, has completely misunderstood the post. To be clear, I do not think that Apple is in any way trying to purposely "cripple" non-Apple software. I also do not think that undocumented APIs give Safari any kind of "significant performance advantage" (as Firefox 3 should show!). However, as I said, the undocumented functionality could be useful for Firefox and other apps to implement things in an simpler (and potentially more efficient) manner. I don't think this is malicious, it's just an unfortunate cutting of corners that is way too easy for a company that's not fully open to do. Try reading the whole article next time. ~mac.nub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forceman Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 Thats why it's news, other people need to read it and make their own views about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Nonny Moose Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 How is releasing the underpinning of the OS for for to develop applications "crippling software"? This means every application has their own chance to make their software work and work fast under OS X. The FACT that Firefox for Mac is stupidly slow only shows off their own ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLiDE FTW!!1 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 How is releasing the underpinning of the OS for for to develop applications "crippling software"? This means every application has their own chance to make their software work and work fast under OS X. The FACT that Firefox for Mac is stupidly slow only shows off their own ignorance. That first sentence makes absolutely no sense. The whole point of the post was to point out that there are undocumented API's that engineers have to backwards engineer in order to achieve speeds like Safari. If true, this is very snake-ish on Apple's behalf. This is something like what Microsoft would do. Consider reading http://blog.vlad1.com/2008/02/28/finding-t...x-turbo-button/ for more information regarding this (it was included in the original post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forceman Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 Just to be clear what mac.nub quoted, it's their view that they dont think anything malicious is going on, but it's upto you to judge for yourself. Personally I tried Firefox3 Beta3 and it IS slow on OS X, scrolling on some pages is very laggy and smooth scroll is too, thats not to say that this article is right, it could purely be coincidental or just Mozilla haven't done a very good job as yet in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLiDE FTW!!1 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Personally I tried Firefox3 Beta3 and it IS slow on OS X, scrolling on some pages is very laggy and smooth scroll is too, thats not to say that this article is right, it could purely be coincidental or just Mozilla haven't done a very good job as yet in that regard. Depends on how you look at it -- FF on Windows and Linux are great. Either the Firefox team doesn't like Macs (highly unlikely) or there's something going on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superhai Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 One should read this comment as well http://blog.vlad1.com/2008/02/28/finding-t...on/#comment-573 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Nonny Moose Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 The whole point of the post was to point out that there are undocumented API's that engineers have to backwards engineer in order to achieve speeds like Safari. There's most likely undocumented stuff on every OS, except for probably Linux. The FACT that the Firefox team cannot code for a faster Firefox on OS X compared to other OS-es means either they fess up and say they can't do it or they come up with an excuse. I'm not trying to sound fanboy-ish here, but something else has to be going on here. As the ultimate example of this, Opera for Mac is faster feeling than Firefox for Mac. Why is this, as it would be logical to say that Opera has to do the exact same thing Firefox is crying about to get those faster speeds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ongeloof Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Strange... Buy if Apple does do that, being a major Apple fan, i support them. It is the software equaling of what MS supposedly does. Buying out small competitive companies so they keep market share. Think Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forceman Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 It maybe because Firefox 3 is fully native and you will need access to all the API's. As I understand it you dont need access to all the API's if it's a non native app. I think it's the same as Firefox with Linux and GTK, it's only till now version 3 is Firefox native and uses cairo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLiDE FTW!!1 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 There's most likely undocumented stuff on every OS, except for probably Linux. The FACT that the Firefox team cannot code for a faster Firefox on OS X compared to other OS-es means either they fess up and say they can't do it or they come up with an excuse. I'm not trying to sound fanboy-ish here, but something else has to be going on here. As the ultimate example of this, Opera for Mac is faster feeling than Firefox for Mac. Why is this, as it would be logical to say that Opera has to do the exact same thing Firefox is crying about to get those faster speeds? I disagree -- firefox 2.0 boots (cold/warm), loads web pages and flash quicker than Opera on my fresh install of 10.5.2... I don't see where you're getting at. I'm a Safari guy myself, but if both Opera and Firefox are slow, doesn't this support the cause of the thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forceman Posted March 4, 2008 Author Share Posted March 4, 2008 From what I've read it seems to be more that crossplatform apps may never be as good as native apps(some may wonder why I use the term native). Just take Camino, it's a native OS X app and seems to run better than Firefox, but I think it's not as smooth as Safari because Safari uses Apples own webkit. Some say it's down to the somewhat restrictive nature of OS X development and tools, I really can't see Apple crippling Firefox and it maybe down to a mix of their OS X devs and it no porting well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Oh no! Apple tries to make their own software work good on their own OS. This is terrible news.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InorganicMatter Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 The title is horribly misleading. It makes this situation sound like what Microsoft did to Lotus back in the day (for you young'uns: Microsoft was sued for intentionally breaking Lotus on certain versions of DOS). That is not in the least what's happening. Mac OS X has simply got some undocumented speed-boosting shortcuts available only to Apple. Safari uses them to appear faster, Firefox does not have access to them. It's not like Apple is sabotaging Opera and Firefox, and they are certainly not "crippling non-Apple software." It's more like they are speeding up native Apple Mac OS X apps, as is to be expected. Apple has a close hardware/software platform, and when you have a platform like that, it's very easy to make heavy application-specific optimizations. It's why video game consoles look as good as PCs with much lower processing power. I say Firefox is to blame here, as is expected. Multiplatform software cannot be optimized for one particular OS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLiDE FTW!!1 Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 The title is horribly misleading. It makes this situation sound like what Microsoft did to Lotus back in the day (for you young'uns: Microsoft was sued for intentionally breaking Lotus on certain versions of DOS). That is not in the least what's happening. Mac OS X has simply got some undocumented speed-boosting shortcuts available only to Apple. Safari uses them to appear faster, Firefox does not have access to them. It's not like Apple is sabotaging Opera and Firefox, and they are certainly not "crippling non-Apple software." It's more like they are speeding up native Apple Mac OS X apps, as is to be expected. Apple has a close hardware/software platform, and when you have a platform like that, it's very easy to make heavy application-specific optimizations. It's why video game consoles look as good as PCs with much lower processing power. I say Firefox is to blame here, as is expected. Multiplatform software cannot be optimized for one particular OS. Your post contradicts itself. You say: Apple has undocumented speed-boosting code. and then: It's Firefox's fault for not being able to implement the code that's unavailable to them. Apple is the one at fault because they're not providing the tools necessary to developers to offer the best user experience possible. Apple is being selfish, and is choking out the competition. The point is, I want to use Firefox for various reasons (plugins, etc) -- but to have the fastest browser possible, I have to use Safari, because Apple is a nazi corporation and doesn't play nice with healthy competition. Yes, Microsoft did something similar (RE: Netscape), but a few lawsuits later, Firefox 2 is faster and better than IE7. I'm not saying that Firefox or Opera should be faster than Safari, but the speed is so noticeable that it's pathetic. Where's the choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxintosh Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Apple is the one at fault More Apple bashing from the microsoft crowd. How surprising Like any company Apple does things wrong from time to time, but this isn't one of them. So you're saying that when a company, ANY company, optimizes one of their products to work with another one of their products, that's their fault? Perhaps you missed the part where InorganicMatter clearly pointed out that "Apple has a close hardware/software platform, and when you have a platform like that, it's very easy to make heavy application-specific optimizations." This is INHERENTLY one reason why buying a Mac is better than building a kit computer and running windows on it. The Mac is more tightly integrated and thus, can be tweaked to perform better. No surprise there Microsoft did something similar No they didn't Microsoft literally went to war with Netscape. They had a meeting with Netscape and basically told them "we will buy your company for pennies and if you resist we will crush you". Microsoft then made it impossible for independent vendors to offer competing products like Netscape. This is highly illegal and the courts put a stop to it. Apple is doing no such thing, not even close. What Apple is doing is simply tweaking their OWN products. Companies do this all the time, and while it does give them an advantage, it is not illegal in any way. In fact many company mergers result from this practice. Nokia just bought Navteq, and now they will use Navteq so that they can offer special GPS programs on their phones that their competitors cannot. That is NOT illegal, but it is smart on the companies part, business wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLiDE FTW!!1 Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 More Apple bashing from the microsoft crowd. How surprising Like any company Apple does things wrong from time to time, but this isn't one of them. So you're saying that when a company, ANY company, optimizes one of their products to work with another one of their products, that's their fault? Perhaps you missed the part where InorganicMatter clearly pointed out that "Apple has a close hardware/software platform, and when you have a platform like that, it's very easy to make heavy application-specific optimizations." This is INHERENTLY one reason why buying a Mac is better than building a kit computer and running windows on it. The Mac is more tightly integrated and thus, can be tweaked to perform better. No surprise there No they didn't Microsoft literally went to war with Netscape. They had a meeting with Netscape and basically told them "we will buy your company for pennies and if you resist we will crush you". Microsoft then made it impossible for independent vendors to offer competing products like Netscape. This is highly illegal and the courts put a stop to it. Apple is doing no such thing, not even close. What Apple is doing is simply tweaking their OWN products. Companies do this all the time, and while it does give them an advantage, it is not illegal in any way. In fact many company mergers result from this practice. Nokia just bought Navteq, and now they will use Navteq so that they can offer special GPS programs on their phones that their competitors cannot. That is NOT illegal, but it is smart on the companies part, business wise. Apple makes Safari and OS X (just incase you forgot). Apple is accused of implementing "speed enhancing code" into it's OS that is only available to Apple developers who are working on Safari -- ultimately leaving competitors unable to compete. No competition = bad for consumers. Of course it's not illegal -- but is it fair? Going from Windows to OS X is like going from one type of monopoly to another. No body wants to use Firefox (or Opera for that matter) on OS X because it's sluggish compared to Safari. You must be on drugs if you don't see something wrong with this. Well, you're an Apple fanboy, so I guess delusion is the drug that Apple feeds it's fanboys. But of course, if you actually think Apple's ways of eliminating open-source choices benefits you, you're Apple's #1 customer. Plus you're free advertisement! Apple must love you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Software Updater Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 I don't think it is crippling software, all it is doing is giving their own software a better advantage which I am fine with, if I am gonna spend a few thousand dollars on Final Cut Studio I wan't it to {censored} scream! Or spend 2000+ on a Mac Pro I want it to fly. I think it is a pity that Firefox makes them feel better by pointing out competitive features in an operating system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxintosh Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 No competition = bad for consumers. There IS competition! Just because one company isn't bending over backwards to help their competition doesn't mean it's bad for consumers, in fact it's just the opposite. Of course it's not illegal -- but is it fair? Absolutely, and as mentioned before, it happens almost everyday by pretty much every company. It's the reason why one company will often times buy another. No body wants to use Firefox (or Opera for that matter) on OS X because it's sluggish compared to Safari. So then quit your whining and don't use it. It's NOT Apples fault that Firefox software developers can't figure out a way around this. Other companies have tried to block their competitors before but were unsuccessful. If Firefox developers are good then they will find a way around it, if they're not then they don't. If Firefox had an operating system I'm sure they'd be doing the same thing. It's part of everyday business. you're an Apple fanboy Always love it when you publicly prove how ignorant, narrow-minded and clueless you are Apparently you have to resort to false name calling because your argument has dried up. Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLiDE FTW!!1 Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 There IS competition! Just because one company isn't bending over backwards to help their competition doesn't mean it's bad for consumers, in fact it's just the opposite. Absolutely, and as mentioned before, it happens almost everyday by pretty much every company. It's the reason why one company will often times buy another. So then quit your whining and don't use it. It's NOT Apples fault that Firefox software developers can't figure out a way around this. Other companies have tried to block their competitors before but were unsuccessful. If Firefox developers are good then they will find a way around it, if they're not then they don't. If Firefox had an operating system I'm sure they'd be doing the same thing. It's part of everyday business. Always love it when you publicly prove how ignorant, narrow-minded and clueless you are Apparently you have to resort to false name calling because your argument has dried up. Weird. Your post had no point... you just defend Apple until your face turns blue. All you said was: Firefox would do the same if it had an OS. Firefox is open source -- and open source developers make Linux... which doesn't have hidden API's to make certain programs run faster. Can you contribute to the topic at least? Or does Apple pay you to say generic comments that compliment them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Nonny Moose Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 It still isn't Apple's fault that Firefox can't code for OS X. I mean, they can make it run fast on Windows (super closed) and Linux (super open). Why can't they get it right on OS X? It most likely isn't because of "secret Apple things." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxintosh Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Your post had no point... That's funny, all the educated people here seemed to understand our point just fine. Weird. you just defend Apple until your face turns blue. Well I'd rather have an Apple blue face, than a microsoft brown nose like you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forceman Posted March 6, 2008 Author Share Posted March 6, 2008 You've got to remember that Apple uses it's own version of webkit so it's bound to be faster or simply just a case of Firefox dev not doing a quiet as good job as Linux/Windows for the port. Camion is a nice alternative to Firefox if you want a gecko engine browser but again that was made specifically for OS X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocent Devil Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 consider some exaple to clarify the THINGS u made some APIs in the OS which directly accss the kernel and do some smart things makes apps run faster u not telling me about those APIs, i use generic APIs which are less effective. we both compiling some apps , u r using those APIs i dont know about what will be the result.? u r app will be faster than my app. everybody blame me for making slow app. the same happened here too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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