Will I be able to install Leopard on SAS drive?

[AlexeySob]

Hello guys,

 

I want to buy one of those 15000 RPM HDDs. They're use SAS interface. I wonder, will I be able to install Leopard on such HDD? If it'spossible, what controller should I use and will it work out of box (it will be my first hackintish)?

[AlexeySob]

Anyone please?

[vaporATX]

Why? You gonna run an enterprise server on leopard?

 

Save yourself some money and buy some Raptors. You won't see any benifits running SAS on a desktop.

[badeavasile]

Hello guys,

 

I want to buy one of those 15000 RPM HDDs. They're use SAS interface. I wonder, will I be able to install Leopard on such HDD? If it'spossible, what controller should I use and will it work out of box (it will be my first hackintish)?

 

 

@AlexeySob

 

I don't see why not, as long as you plug your drive into the SATA SAS/SATA interface. After all, SAS technology was designed for serious OSs, like Linux, and Apple integrates it into the Mac Pro range with a RAID card... Apple even looks forward to the Solid State Drive tech by the way! And after all, OSX apps quite use the HDD for cache...

 

Go to to the "apple approved SATA/RAID controller" section (or something like that) on the official site (for an approved card)!

For the SATA options I recomand you a single brand: HighPoint Onboard SATA controllers on some mobos are well-known for their issues with OSX... And one more thing: I'm a long-time user of SCSI drives (on Win, Linux). In this respect I can tell the difference between a pro HDD made in Japan and one made in Taiwan... If you really need a SAS HDD, make sure it's made in Japan! Mine is and it works just fine since 2001 almost full-time (it's a 10k SCSI drive).

 

your first Hackintosh you say? Take it easy, son! It won't be your last one! There's no point to take it right from the top if don't need it!

[AlexeySob]

Why? You gonna run an enterprise server on leopard?

 

Save yourself some money and buy some Raptors. You won't see any benifits running SAS on a desktop.

I'm not a pro here, but these "workstation" tests are showing impressive difference between 7200 and 15000 RPM:

7200 and 10000

15000

 

@AlexeySob

I don't see why not, as long as you plug your drive into the SATA interface.

Thanks.

 

Do you mean I can plugin that 15000 RPM SAS drive into usual SATA?

 

Go to to the "apple approved SATA/RAID controller" section (or something like that) on the official site (for an approved card)!

I wasn't able to find anything like that on Apple.com. I also used Google to find SAS controllers HCL, but found nothing interesting.

[matcy]

Why? You gonna run an enterprise server on leopard?

 

Save yourself some money and buy some Raptors. You won't see any benifits running SAS on a desktop.

this is simply {censored}

differences are enormous.

have you ever used a raid of 15k discs?

raptors are {censored} if compared to a old U320 10k HDD discs, especially if you own a good controller.

I personally used raptors and now I daily use U320 10k/15k discs with a LSI 320-2e controller.

I also use a MacPro with 2x250GB 7k2 SATA in RAID0 + other single discs every day ==> I WANT SAS!!!!!!

 

 

I suggest to control wich chipset uses the apple controller

[vaporATX]

this is simply {censored}

differences are enormous.

have you ever used a raid of 15k discs?

raptors are {censored} if compared to a old U320 10k HDD discs, especially if you own a good controller.

I personally used raptors and now I daily use U320 10k/15k discs with a LSI 320-2e controller.

I also use a MacPro with 2x250GB 7k2 SATA in RAID0 + other single discs every day ==> I WANT SAS!!!!!!

 

 

I suggest to control wich chipset uses the apple controller

 

Yes, I work with 15k drives in servers for customers all the time. I can even get cards and drives cheap. Would I use them in my home desktop machine? No, I don't do anything that would warrant putting up with the heat and noise. Unless you are doing something that needs that kinda performance I just don't think it's worth the expense. I went to a lot of trouble making a dead quiet liquid cooled machine. Of course, this is just my opinion. Do what you want. I just think it's kinda silly unless you REALLY need it.

[matcy]

...... I don't do anything that would warrant putting up with the heat and noise. Unless you are doing something that needs that kinda performance I just don't think it's worth the expense. I went to a lot of trouble making a dead quiet liquid cooled machine. Of course, this is just my opinion. Do what you want. I just think it's kinda silly unless you REALLY need it.

OK we need different things

I consider 15k disks built last few years sufficiently quiet.

I also consider normal 7k2 sata discs too slow, especially in seek.

Obviously I laugh thinking of 15k on a Internet kiosk

[vaporATX]

OK we need different things

I consider 15k disks built last few years sufficiently quiet.

I also consider normal 7k2 sata discs too slow, especially in seek.

Obviously I laugh thinking of 15k on a Internet kiosk

 

Yeah, I'm all about quiet. I use WD green drives that make almost no noise. I'm so anal about it that I even put a Silex 120mm fan on my radiator because the stock fan was about 5 db too noisy.

 

I take it you use good Japanese 15k drives? Cheap ones subbed out to Chinese manufacturers fail all the time. What controller card are you using in your setup?

[matcy]

dell perc 4e/dc = lsi 320-2e

 

seagate cheetah 15k.4 disks noisy only at boot

[badeavasile]

Haha Since when pro HDDs need to be quiet? Personally I like mine noisy and WORKING! 7 years ago I started to learn a little bit about 3D. I wouldn't have bought it otherwise. Yes, today it's underdated and I cannot use it with OSX cause it's SCSI... But you point me one graphic-designer who uses one pro HDD for such a long period of time without even a single bad-cluster issue!

 

SCSI means the power of a Low Voltage Differential. Think about it like on a Land Rover Defender for a 400.000km adventure! You don't buy one unless you go that off-road! Want some nice and cozy one that can still take a bumpy ride? Buy a Tuareg!

 

SAS is a foremost advanced technology (than the good-old SCSI); May be still at the begining, and probably very close to its end, because of the SSD. Nowadays SAS systems might seem like a good investment, but I'm sure is not that good as SCSI was several years ago. Today I wouldn't buy a SAS drive unless it "prints" some money and fast! When you guys see the money coming, you'll love the noise produced by the computer, by the washing-machine and even by the neighbour's barking dog! SCSI/SAS/SSD it's all about feeling GOOD!

[badeavasile]

Do you mean I can plugin that 15000 RPM SAS drive into usual SATA?

 

 

I wasn't able to find anything like that on Apple.com. I also used Google to find SAS controllers HCL, but found nothing interesting.

 

And why nobody gave you a link?

There you go:

 

http://www.highpoint-tech.com/USA/series_2000pcie.htm

 

I've seen some time ago the 2302 2300 SATA model on a JaS Hackintosh workin' like a dream! HighPoint makes incredible many and quick driver updates for newer OS versions... And They also have a partnership with Apple (if I'm right). If you want the seagate cheetah 15k.4, maybe you should look forward at least for: the RoketRaid 2322 model... (which I think is made in the US or Canada), and another seagate cheetah 15k.4... and another one... and... ok, ok some mini-SAS cables

 

The next models were tested on Leo by the producer for the Mac Pro:

 

http://www.hptmac.com/US/categories.php?compatibility=4

 

Those guys are on the top of my list when it comes to SATA controllers. For SCSI I think I like Adaptec better (Why? Take a wild guess!)

[vladthebad]

NO, You cannot plug a SAS drive into a SATA controller..... YOU CAN PLUG SATA drives into SAS controller though.....

 

 

 

only two bootable SAS controllers I know are the Areca stuff.....

 

 

And apple's RAID card

 

Now, no idea if the apple RAID card would be bootable in a hackintosh... but at $999, its pricey either way you look at it!

 

 

As far as non-boot use for SAS.... I suggest just buying a board with the LSI 1068 on it. It uses the LSI Fusion MPT drivers, same drivers used by my LSI PCI-X133 dualchannel U320 card... (a REAL PAIN TO SET UP THOUGH!!!! COMPLETE STEPS BELOW: (note the sarcastic capitals?....)

 

STEP 1: turn off computer, plug in card, plug in SCSI drives

STEP 2: Turn on computer, wait for BIOS then SCSI BIOS, then get bootloader.

STEP 3: wait the delay time, hit return return, do whatever you normally do at the bootloader....

 

STEP 4: the drives show up in OSX... go format them with disk utility.

STEP 5: get pissed off because your 6 year old SCSI drives are so damn fast in a RAID0 array that you 100% peg the PCI bus at 100MB/sec sustained. (NOTE: This would not be a problem if I had a real motherboard that had fancy PCI slots... like 64 bit 66mhz, or a real PCI-X133 slot..... and this would not be a problem with the SAS controllers......)

 

Yeah... really, its that bloody simple.... SAS should be even simpler, since you don't have to worry about SCSI ID numbers, termination, and if your drives are Ultra2, Ultra3, Ultra160, Ultra320.... and what your cable speeds are, and if any of your 68 pin to 80 pin converters are only 40MB/sec rated.....

 

Now, if anyone out there that is currently running an LSI 1068 or another SAS controller has been able to boot off of it... TELL US HOW!!!! (I'd love to boot off of my SCSI card)

[AlexeySob]

Thanks.

 

I think it will be too expensive to use 15000 RPM drive (for Windows I could spend $200 for both drive and controller).

 

Also there are too much ifs. I can buy controller and HDD and could not be able to run OS from it. I think I will use usual 7200 RPM.

[badeavasile]

@vladcelrau

 

1. Right. My mistake. You cannot plug SAS drives into regular onboard controller. SAS/SATA pci controller is the solution. (See the link) Even so, my idea was that onboard controller doesn't match the pci one (concerning the workflow), no matter what kind of drive you'll use... On OSX or on anyother OS. I'll give you a practical example: You might miss the "super read/write speed" (like when you move some moovies from one place to another) say... because of the "pci issue" and because of your old chipset, etc... But you can defrag all your partitions in the same time while you render a 3D scene, burn a CD and watch a dvd (iso) Try that on a regular 7200 drive config without LVD support! Period.

 

2. There are some so called "approved for OSX" SATA and SAS/SATA pci controllers that can be used on OSX (read Hackintosh); and some are especially designed for Leo. I've never really seen (with my own eyes) a SAS one working with Leo yet. I've seen only few SATA pci controllers working great on JaS and Brazilmac... Neither I've seen a modern Mac Pro sold by Apple with classic SCSI card &drives. You tell me why...

 

3. In this Hackintosh business we're all testers here, brother! Remember the first trials to use properly the SATA drives on Tiger? Was it perfect out of the box? Is it still acceptable today without a pci controller? Not without a super mobo! And do you think I stopped thinkin' of some miracle and see my 7 year old Ultra 29160n booting OSX? I agree with you that buying such an expensive system like SAS is a risk. I'm pretty confident that several HighPoint cards will work. By the way! Have you visited their site?

 

Anyway, you guys made me very curious... And I think I'll ask a friend of mine to test some SAS stuff on Leo. He works in a computer store... We'll talk about it after that

[vladthebad]

the LSI 1068 that's onboard some of the nicer tyan boards shows up on screenshots now and again... and it uses LSI Fusion MPT drivers, so should work just fine (I believe the Xserve may use a version of the LSI SAS chip in some versions, also the traditional U320 card you could buy for the xserve in PCI-X133 format was also LSI Fusion MPT.....

 

So are the LSI based Fiberchannel cards apple uses..... LSI's done a good thing there... they design basically all of their newer stuff to use the same Fusion MPT drivers..... and thus, just about anything newer and LSI is supported..... just not for booting.

 

 

 

Also, in regards to your adaptec 29160n: Is is a mac version? I've got 4 64 bit/66mhz PCI 29160's.... If I could get them to show up/work on a hackintosh, I know what I'd be using to fill every unused PCI slot.... heck, at that point it'd be almost worth scrounging around until I found a Magma PCI chassis. LOL. And yes, there is something very satisfying about the sound of 10k RPM and 15k RPM SCSI drives. Brings a smile to a geeks face, and usually scares the {censored} out of non-geeks when they hear them spool up. (Another reason for them not to be touching my computer without asking in my book)

[badeavasile]

 

Don't worry! Sooner or later we'll see some SAS support and tweaking for MANY cards.

 

Wish I've had Adaptec PowerDomain with driver for Tiger...

[Stellair]

And why nobody gave you a link?

There you go:

 

http://www.highpoint-tech.com/USA/series_2000pcie.htm

 

I've seen some time ago the 2302 SATA model on a JaS Hackintosh workin' like a dream! HighPoint makes incredible many and quick driver updates for newer OS versions... And They also have a partnership with Apple (if I'm right). If you want the seagate cheetah 15k.4, maybe you should look forward at least for: the RoketRaid 2322 model... (which I think is made in the US or Canada), and another seagate cheetah 15k.4... and another one... and... ok, ok some mini-SAS cables

 

The next models were tested on Leo by the producer for the Mac Pro:

 

http://www.hptmac.com/US/categories.php?compatibility=4

 

Those guys are on the top of my list when it comes to SATA controllers. For SCSI I think I like Adaptec better (Why? Take a wild guess!)

 

Would that RocketRaid 2302 boot into osx?

[badeavasile]

Would that RocketRaid 2302 boot into osx?

 

That's what the manufacturer indicates. (Or doesn't it?)

 

http://www.hptmac.com/US/product.php?_index=20

 

The question was: would it boot into Hackintosh? Haven't got the chance to test that one yet... Nor any SAS/SATA model... Sorry

 

 

Is the 2310 model that certainly does (tested with SATA I and SATA II Samsung HDDs in RAID 0 and RAID 1). Not the 2302! Oops

And the 2300 model with the 2310 driver also does the job.

[deleted_account]

As long as this is in the OSx86 forum, that means theres a BIOS, controller cards and hard drives can be booted-off by selecting the according drive right?

 

I currently have a 300gb Seagate Cheetah 15K.5 [sT3300655SS] SAS Hard Drive, and would like to use this as my primary hard drive. This being a SAS drive, I needed a SAS Controller. So I decided on the ATTO Tech H308 ExpressSAS Host Adapter. Does anyone know how to slipstream drivers so that when I'm at the Leopard installation, it can identify the hard drives in my SAS controller?

 

[*Note: HighpointTech has notified me that all pci-express internal port models are NOT SAS controllers, they are intended for SATA.]

[deleted_account]

Do you guys think if I were to install OS X on a normal SATA drive, and duplicate that drive onto the SAS drive it would work? I've somewhat tried something similar. There's no problem booting with that card from the BIOS of my motherboard, but I need the OS to be able to be on there somehow. I hope I'm getting close...thoughts about this anyone? Has anyone succesfully installed OS X leopard on a SAS drive, if so, which controller card was used? After talking to tech support, it appears that Mac Pro RAID card has some proprietary options that other controller card companies can't seem to bypass.

[vladthebad]

gramarye, getting the darwin bootloader onto the SAS drive may be the harder part.

 

What I want to see is someone figure out how to make the darwin bootloader let us boot off of any drive, including its own.... that'd be nice.

 

 

As far as other ideas, DD the drive in linux from a SATA drive to the SAS drive.... not the data, the entire drive (image will be size of entire drive capacity)

 

Or, what about instead of burning the installer disk, just restore the install disk to a SATA or IDE drive..... then add your SAS drivers or .kext or whatnot to the install drive.... then run the install drive to install onto the SAS drive?

 

 

What SAS controller are you using? does it show up as a non-boot drive?

 

Is OSX supposedly bootable off of it? or do other drivers have to be loaded first....

[deleted_account]

vladthebad, I thank you so much for these ideas/suggestions/responses you have. It certainly gives me so much more hope in this project! I will try and do everything I can to make this possible. I was quite surprised that there weren't as many SAS drivers in this community as I had expected. Also, nice hearing you in the 8-Core motheraboard thread  

 

Here are my responses to your suggestions:

 

gramarye, getting the darwin bootloader onto the SAS drive may be the harder part.

 

What I want to see is someone figure out how to make the darwin bootloader let us boot off of any drive, including its own.... that'd be nice.

 

I agree, any ideas on how to go about this? (could I be doing a process wrong?) I feel like that's all I really need in order for this to work. Having this bootloader feature on any drive would be nice.

 

1) Duplicate/Clone drive in SuperDuper and CarbonCopyCloner

2) Restart

3) Select SAS Drive in BIOS to boot off

 

It's pretty much just the blinking dash, which means theres no bootloader, or the OS is not a startup

 

For some reason, how come it does not work whenever I try the Drive cloning/duplication method in SuperDuper, CarbonCopyCloner. Is that the right result? or am I choosing the wrong setup.

 

As far as other ideas, DD the drive in linux from a SATA drive to the SAS drive.... not the data, the entire drive (image will be size of entire drive capacity)

 

What does "DD" mean? (Duplicate?) This will be my the last of the others as far as priorities go. I have never ins

alled Linux before, I have you to try, but knowing I might have to turn this rou

e, I will this will be my last attempt. I'm just so very fortunate that are still possibilities. (I've checked-off too many already!)

 

 

...Or, what about instead of burning the installer disk, just restore the install disk to a SATA or IDE drive..... then add your SAS drivers or .kext or whatnot to the install drive.... then run the install drive to install onto the SAS drive?

 

This method sounds sort of like the slipstreaming method I was recommended. In a way, I would be implementing the drivers to my installation somehow. I am VERY interested in this workaround, if you could share a bit more details on how to do this, I would greatly appreciate this. I have spare drives around, and I would definitely sacrifice them just for this to work.

 

1) Restore Leopard Installation disc to spare SATA drive

2) Add drivers neccessary to the respective installation folder location (it's only one file) < but Where? and How?

3) Choose drive to Boot off of in BIOS

4) Installation procedures like usual, and hopefully the SAS drive will show up?

 

maybe I can even add the usual programs I work with too, that would be awesome

 

What SAS controller are you using? does it show up as a non-boot drive?

 

Is OSX supposedly bootable off of it? or do other drivers have to be loaded first....

 

My SAS Controller is the ATTO Tech H308 ExpressSAS Adapter

 

This adapter is native-boots for Windows and as for Mac OS X, the native booting feature is in production, or in the works, I will find out the ETA soon, and I'll report back. However, the company is guarenteeing this feature sometime in the future. They say it's something in Apple's EFI that makes their RAID card so proprietary.

 

I'm not able to see the Disks connected to the controller at Disk Utility during Installation because I'd need the drivers installed first. (If it was as easy as Vista, where there is an option that allows "Load Drivers" in Installation, that would be great)

 

Since my computer is able to boot the drives (since the BIOS detects it), all I need basically, from this point, is to install the OS on there and I should be fine. There are no booting problems, and my motherboard and BIOS detects these drives natively. 

[vlad1966]

I'll be keeping an eye on this one, since I'd love to be able to use a SAS HDD as my boot drive, and that ATTO controller isn't that expensive @ about $300.

 

gramarye, please keep us updated . . .

[vladthebad]

carbon copy cloner doesn't work... doesn't grab the bootloader... tried that one myself.

 

DD'ing the drive in linux SHOULD work by all rights and reasons... but frankly, unless you're a linux person it may end up being a real pain in the rear....

 

 

So lets look more in depth at the slipstreaming option.

 

Step by step

 

Getting the image

put install disk in optical drive (or better yet, grab the .dmg that you used before you burned it...)

If you don't have the DMG, use disk utility to make you an image of the disk.

 

Restoring the image

plug in spare 15-20 gig junk drive, doesn't matter really..... (Note: if you do this first, you don't need to restart here in the middle)

go into disk utility, format it hfs+, yada yada, mbr, yada yada, and now go to restore.

drag install disk .dmg from left pane on window to source, drag 15-20gig junk drive to destination.

 

and go.

 

Wait a good while for it to finish.

 

Reboot computer off of the junk drive to make sure it gets you into the installer. Depending on the OSX86 version you're using here.... you may need to bless your junk drive using the bless command, and then set the MBR using fdisk in terminal before it will be bootable.

 

OK.... so assuming we have a bootable junk drive that now acts like an install disk....

 

go find your drivers, and put them onto the junk drive. make any .kext modifications you need, etc etc....

blow away the .kextcache and .mkext so it will re-load and re-cache all the extensions on boot...

 

boot off your junk drive.... and it should see your SAS drives, or whatever other drives you've got connected (you may have to go into disk utility, then quit, then go back into disk utility....)

 

Now getting it to actually boot off of that SAS drive may end up being a bit more difficult, I don't know.... but we won't know until we try a slipstreamed installer.