Forum Trolls, Crap Flooding and Moderation

[bofors]

I started a thread to initiate a discussion about the recently released "Final Cut" version of the movie "Loose Change" here: http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showtopic=72857

 

However, forum trolls immediately polluted that thread with nonsense. In the lexicon of trolling this is called "{censored} flooding".

 

I humbly request the forum Admins to put an end to this immaturity, so that intelligent people in the OSx86 community are free to have meaningful conversations about important topics like the Truth of 9/11.

[Sabr]

Why couldn't you have just messaged an Admin or Moderator? Doing that would have gotten a quicker response. Perhaps you should post all your 9/11 stuff in one dedicated topic, rather than multiple topics for the same thing (I'm not having a dig at you, but all this 9/11 stuff has caused a few arguments and people flaming one another).

 

- Sabr.

[bofors]

Why couldn't you have just messaged an Admin or Moderator? Doing that would have gotten a quicker response.

Thanks for your prompt reply.

 

I had already messaged a moderator, tagged several posts using the "report" link and Hagar has already intervened to little effect here: http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?sho...&start=283#

 

So, I did not see a problem with starting this thread to point out the problem.

 

Perhaps you should post all your 9/11 stuff in one dedicated topic, rather than multiple topics for the same thing (I'm not having a dig at you, but all this 9/11 stuff has caused a few arguments and people flaming one another).

 

That's perfectly reasonable and largely what I have tried to do with this thread: http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showtopic=60266

 

However, Hagar seems to be indicating that he wants to lock it: http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?sho...&start=283#

[Alessandro17]

I reported this:

 

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?sho...&start=284#

 

Bofors is a person with a serious problem. He should not be allowed to argue any points because he does not think rationally or logically, and he REFUSES to accept or consider any other sources of information than 9/11 conspiracy websites.

 

But nothing happened.

 

Who the hell is this PSPHax0r9 who has contributed absolutely nothing to the community but can with impunity insult one of the most senior members of this forum (bofors)? Let's not forget that hundreds, maybe thousands of us have today a perfectly working hackintosh thanks to bofors's great hardware threads.

[~pcwiz]

I would like to contribute my experience with trolling, etc.

 

Guys, do you know how unfair it was for me? You know in that Forum Trolls thread I said (quote):

 

...While there are trolls in this forum (no names mentioned KFC )...

 

Then REVENGE said:

 

KFC? O_O

 

Then I said:

 

I can't believe you don't get the clue...KFC. KFC was founded by a guy named Colonel. Get it now? And Kiko is sometimes a troll but not always.

 

Just for this, I got warned saying that I did an "unprecedented personal attack against another user". I'm just 2 warnings away from getting banned from this forum. Do you know how crazy this is, considering how many times Kiko and Colonel insulted me without ANY warning or getting warned by admins?

 

Nastiest thing Kiko ever said to me:

 

goddammit kik0 i wouldnt say that. Heres what i would say. Your a {censored} pathetic failure, and this is a stupid idea. Anyone who needs to search for these simple problems should be shot. I hope you develop cancer of the testes and die a painful death all alone in a garbage bin

 

And Kiko said this just because I was developing a search plugin to search the InsanelyMac Forum and OSx86 Wiki. I'm quite positive that Kiko was never warned or anything for this.

 

Why are mods and people picking on ME and ME alone for stuff like this? They seem to be trying to find EVERY TINY little excuse to increase my warning level.

 

EDIT: And you know what I got the other 2 warnings for? One for bumping an old topic or two and another warning for making a "Rate my site" topic. I don't think this is fair at all. I think that the conditions on which a warning is issued should be changed.

[socal swimmer]

I reported this:

 

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?sho...&start=284#

 

 

 

But nothing happened.

 

Who the hell is this PSPHax0r9 who has contributed absolutely nothing to the community but can with impunity insult one of the most senior members of this forum (bofors)? Let's not forget that hundreds, maybe thousands of us have today a perfectly working hackintosh thanks to bofors's great hardware threads.

 

I'm going to be honest and say that I don't know what bofors has contributed to the community, but I trust you guys when you say that he has contributed a lot.

 

That being said, psphaxor had a good point. In the 9/11 thread, bofors showed a complete refusal to use legitimate sources (even after being called out by multiple people, myself included). This is not a personal attack, but a fact. I challenge anyone who disagrees to show me one post (in the 9/11 thread) that includes a legitimate source.

 

Of course it is wrong to commit personal attacks, but at some point, you have to call people out.

[Alessandro17]

I'm going to be honest and say that I don't know what bofors has contributed to the community, but I trust you guys when you say that he has contributed a lot.

 

That is very easy to prove. Look for instance in the Genius Bar.

 

That being said, psphaxor had a good point. In the 9/11 thread, bofors showed a complete refusal to use legitimate sources (even after being called out by multiple people, myself included). This is not a personal attack, but a fact. I challenge anyone who disagrees to show me one post (in the 9/11 thread) that includes a legitimate source.

 

Of course it is wrong to commit personal attacks, but at some point, you have to call people out.

 

PSPHax0r9 has insulted bofors many times. Bofors, OTOH, has hardly ever insulted anybody.

[bofors]

I'm going to be honest and say that I don't know what bofors has contributed to the community, but I trust you guys when you say that he has contributed a lot.

Not that this really should matter, but the the question of my contributions did come up before (apparently as a joke) and I detailed them in part here: http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?sho...t=7&start=7

 

BTW: Thanks go out to ~pcwiz here, I used his search tool to quickly find the post I was looking for.

 

That being said, psphaxor had a good point. In the 9/11 thread, bofors showed a complete refusal to use legitimate sources (even after being called out by multiple people, myself included). This is not a personal attack, but a fact. I challenge anyone who disagrees to show me one post (in the 9/11 thread) that includes a legitimate source.

 

 

If you want to claim my 9/11 sources are not "legitimate" or whatever, please do it in the 9/11 thread: http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showtopic=60266

 

Of course it is wrong to commit personal attacks, but at some point, you have to call people out.

 

Hagar actually did remove one of Paranoid Marvin's posts here:

 

Post Removed by moderator subsequent to it being reported.

 

The jist of this post was that the poster disagrees with bofors' position, considers it invalid and would like him to cease promoting it.

 

Please stick to discussing & commenting on the issues, not each other.

 

I hope this edit will satisfy all parties, both those who desire complete freedom of expression, and those interested in civil debate.

 

- Hagar

 

But these posts by Paranoid Marvin, for example, are not calling out my sources as being "illegitimate" or something, no they are pure {censored} and clearly trolling:

 

Ok Bofors, how's this for evidence. The twin towers did collapse, and they were caused by terrorists.

However, every time someone finds evidence to support this, FSM changes the figures with his noodly appendage, making you think it was a cover up...

 

You can't disprove it, can you?

 

Yeha, that's right, just ignore the point I just made...

 

Only because can't prove that the figures weren't change by the noodly lord

 

No, we finished with building seven some weeks ago, just give up, will you

 

[Hagar]

OK this has gone far enough. One man's troll is another's witty insight, It might be claimed that this entire topic is trollbait.

 

The main criteria for a personal attack is that comments are directed at persons, not issues.

 

Alessandro17 please don't assume that nothing happened.

 

~pcwiz reposting stuff you got warned for previously isn't helping. See the post above yours, and consider that you too, are insulting some of "the most senior members of this forum". Your post, if anything illustrates that some feel victimised by undermoderation, whilst others feel overmoderated *at the same time and in the same place*.

 

I made an attempt at moderating the thread mentioned above, it's true. I now wish I hadn't. Fact is all these 9/11 & related political topics get heated and it's hard, tedious, thankless work plowing through them, as someone always howls that they have been unfairly treated.

This is primarily a tech forum & no-one is interested in refereeing political slanging matches. So what to do? Intervening in the topics causes outcry, as does leaving them to fend for themselves.

 

I honestly don't know what to do for the best. Lets look at the options:

 

We could ban such discussions.

 

We could institute a no-comebacks the-moderators-decision-is-final-&-indisputable regime, as many sites do.

 

We could state explicitly that threads in the "Real Life" forum and similar must live with a more liberal degree of moderation (only removing spammers & suchlike, not policing who is saying mean stuff to whom)

 

What we will not continue to do is to attempt to moderate an impossible quagmire & take abuse for so doing.

 

None of these options is going to please everyone.

[~pcwiz]

Thanks Hagar for the statement.

 

bofors, your welcome for the search tool

 

What I find frustrating is that I made huge contributions to this community (made the search tool, VMware resources that many people use, I BUILD THE LEOPARD 10.5 HCL OUT OF SCRATCH all on my own time) and now I'm 2 simple warnings away from being banned from the entire community.

 

It just gives you the feeling that you're being USED.

 

But I've said enough.

 

I'll leave this thread and everyone can continue on with this "debate"

 

EDIT:

 

We could institute a no-comebacks the-moderators-decision-is-final-&-indisputable regime, as many sites do

 

Does this mean that you could un-warn me Hagar?

[Headrush69]

We could ban such discussions.

You have my vote.

 

If I wanted to discuss real world events I would find a forum dedicated to that.

[bofors]

We could state explicitly that threads in the "Real Life" forum and similar must live with a more liberal degree of moderation (only removing spammers & suchlike, not policing who is saying mean stuff to whom)

 

That would throw out Swad's no "ad hominems" rule which is at least nominally still in place.

 

What we will not continue to do is to attempt to moderate an impossible quagmire & take abuse for so doing.

 

I am not exactly sure why you feel abused, but I certainly appreciate your efforts despite their ambiguity.

 

Why don't you just simple tell one or two users here to ignore me? There is no reason why they have to follow every post that I make in threads which I originate with derogatory nonsense. I feel like I am being stalked by a couple of rabid twelve year-olds here or something. It is ridiculous.

 

If they are so concerned about promoting the offical story of 9/11, exposing my "illegitimate" sources or whatever, let them create their own threads. Trust me, I will ignore them.

[Hagar]

Why don't you just simple tell one or two users here to ignore me? There is no reason why they have to follow every post that I make in threads which I originate with derogatory nonsense. I feel like I am being stalked by a couple of rabid twelve year-olds here or something. It is ridiculous.

 

If they are so concerned about promoting the offical story of 9/11, exposing my "illegitimate" sources or whatever, let them create their own threads. Trust me, I will ignore them.

 

If you have the right to express your opinion, then so do they.

[bofors]

If you have the right to express your opinion, then so do they.

 

Hagar, no one here is suggesting anything to the contrary.

[socal swimmer]

@hagar

 

I think your idea of more liberal moderation is a good one. Or, moderators could be appointed to work just in Real Life (I know other boards have mods for only one forum).

 

 

 

@bofors

I humbly request the forum Admins to put an end to this immaturity, so that intelligent people in the OSx86 community are free to have meaningful conversations about important topics like the Truth of 9/11.

 

First of all, you just said that multiple people were not intelligent, a blatant personal attack. Moreover, you already have a thread devoted to "the Truth of 9/11". Is one not enough? Could you not face the counter points against the legitimacy of your sources in that thread, so you dodged to another?

 

btw, google video is still not a legitimate source.

[bofors]

One more thing... before I complained to moderators, I politely asked Paranoid Marvin to stop trolling.

 

Hi, I really do not understand what you are trying say with "noodly lord" and such, so I can not respond to whatever it is you are trying to demand an answer to in the 9/11 thread.

 

Furthermore, I am sorry that I have been unable to explain 9/11 to you in a satisfactory way.

 

However, the truth of 9/11 is a very serious topic that I am committed to exposing to those of us who are capable of understanding it as an "inside job" (which may be a small minority).

 

At this point, it seems like you are trolling and thus deliberatly inferring with my right to express my concerns about 9/11, so I will politely ask you to stop.

 

Thanks,

~bofors

 

Learn a bit more about religion and maybe you'll know, but I can't apologise for your ignorance.

 

Quite frankly, we've all said enough in that thread - what's the point in continuing, you just can't accept that you can't 'brainwash' everyone.

 

I might as well speak to a moderator, and get that thread closed.

 

Just do yourself a favour and engage in a topic of conversation that doesn't involve 9/11, for once.

 

It should be obvious from Paranoid Marvin's response that he is not primarily interested in his own freedom of expression but rather stomping on mine.

[socal swimmer]

It should be obvious from Paranoid Marvin's response that he is not primarily interested in his own freedom of expression but rather stomping on mine.

 

maybe he was just tired of you passing off terrible sources as legitimate, and then telling him to disprove you. The noodly lord reference was to The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and he was saying that it is rediculous to ask someone to disprove you when you have not proven it yourself.

 

You brought it up, you were advocating the conspiracy theory, so you have to prove it. You did not do so using legitimate sources. Then, you told him that because he could not disprove you, you must be right. He was saying (in a satirical manner) that because you could not disprove him, his theory must also be right.

 

oh and btw,

@bofors

I humbly request the forum Admins to put an end to this immaturity, so that intelligent people in the OSx86 community are free to have meaningful conversations about important topics like the Truth of 9/11.

 

First of all, you just said that multiple people were not intelligent, a blatant personal attack. Moreover, you already have a thread devoted to "the Truth of 9/11". Is one not enough? Could you not face the counter points against the legitimacy of your sources in that thread, so you dodged to another?

 

btw, google video is still not a legitimate source.

 

(you completely ignored my post, so i thought you missed it. anyways, here it is again)

[Paranoid Marvin]

One more thing... before I complained to moderators, I politely asked Paranoid Marvin to stop trolling.

Learn a bit more about religion and maybe you'll know, but I can't apologise for your ignorance.

 

Quite frankly, we've all said enough in that thread - what's the point in continuing, you just can't accept that you can't 'brainwash' everyone.

 

I might as well speak to a moderator, and get that thread closed.

 

Just do yourself a favour and engage in a topic of conversation that doesn't involve 9/11, for once.

 

It should be obvious from Paranoid Marvin's response that he is not primarily interested in his own freedom of expression but rather stomping on mine.

 

Or it could be said that like many other people, I got fed up of this 9/11 rubbish.

 

 

BTW, my post about the flying spaghetti monster....

 

Don't you think removing that was a bit stupid? Considering that I was expressing the views of a religion, and it was far from offensive.

Anyway, no point in drawing blood from a stone, I just feel that maybe the mods have been a little strict with some of the thread deletion - let's not go back to the old days guys :censored2:

[Alessandro17]

Or it could be said that like many other people, I got fed up of this 9/11 rubbish.

 

Allow me, that is a bit difficult to believe. The reason is very simple: there are many threads I have never read, simply because I have no interest whatsoever in them.

[FUKKU]

We could state explicitly that threads in the "Real Life" forum and similar must live with a more liberal degree of moderation (only removing spammers & suchlike, not policing who is saying mean stuff to whom)

Do this, it's the easiest and best option you gave. If you tell someone they have to have a thick skin before posting in the real life forum most people would man up and be ok with it.

[Alessandro17]

Do this, it's the easiest and best option you gave. If you tell someone they have to have a thick skin before posting in the real life forum most people would man up and be ok with it.

 

This whole matter reminds me of "The Pub" at ExtremeTech. It used to be, years ago, a section of the forum totally hidden from the general public, for discussing Politics, Religion and so on, where a much more relaxed use of the language was allowed.

In order to read it or contribute you had to go through a sort of initiation rite.

I believe it was a total failure, because it got out of hand and many people became enemies there.

Concluding: I don't think it is a good idea, I don't see why we shouldn't be able to have a civilized exchange of ideas.

[apowerr]

We could state explicitly that threads in the "Real Life" forum and similar must live with a more liberal degree of moderation (only removing spammers & suchlike, not policing who is saying mean stuff to whom

That's really the best option. People need to accept that there are going to be disagreements.

 

@Socal Swimmer:

By now, many times you have expressed that Google Video is not a legit source. Google Video is a website. Let's suppose there is a scientist interested in educating people about poverty in Bolivia. He post videos about Bolivia onto Google Video so that people may watch them and learn for free. Now according to you, he is an illegitmate source. That makes no sense. You can't base accusations of wrong information on the medium by which it's provided to you.

[A Nonny Moose]

DISCLAIMER--I am not trying to insult anyone, but I'm merely offering advice as a veteran of several forums. I'm sure that others have had the same kinds of issues I have seen, but oddly enough, nobody has posted something like this. Hopefully, we can break the ice and discuss what we really need to discuss.

 

OK this has gone far enough. One man's troll is another's witty insight, It might be claimed that this entire topic is trollbait.

 

The main criteria for a personal attack is that comments are directed at persons, not issues.

 

Yes, but there is also a difference between "Hagar/bofors/Moose/Swad is silly for saying Macs don't use RAM because..." and "I hope Hagar/bofors/Moose/Swad dies of AIDS for making such a stupid remark." Both are actually personal attacks, but one is much less severe than the other. Where do we draw the line? I personally think the mods here have drawn a very good line when it comes to moderating topics here (much better than say, MacAddict/MacLife forums, but I digress). Could moderation be better? Probably, only because nobody is perfect, not even Steve Jobs.

 

Alessandro17 please don't assume that nothing happened.

 

~pcwiz reposting stuff you got warned for previously isn't helping. See the post above yours, and consider that you too, are insulting some of "the most senior members of this forum". Your post, if anything illustrates that some feel victimised by undermoderation, whilst others feel overmoderated *at the same time and in the same place*.

 

I agree with this 100% and anyone who disagrees with me is a poopy head.

 

I made an attempt at moderating the thread mentioned above, it's true. I now wish I hadn't. Fact is all these 9/11 & related political topics get heated and it's hard, tedious, thankless work plowing through them, as someone always howls that they have been unfairly treated.

This is primarily a tech forum & no-one is interested in refereeing political slanging matches. So what to do? Intervening in the topics causes outcry, as does leaving them to fend for themselves.

 

I remember someone on another forum that posted their stuff, which was all about homosexual things. If you disagreed with him, you were a homophobe. If you moderated him, you were Hitler (I am not exaggerating). I disgareed with him once and was called a homphobe (a homosexual homophobe, go figure!). He was suspended and put in his signature that he was banned for "upsetting the fuhrer."

 

This exact same thing happened on the DC Comics message board. Phil Jimenez came on to write Wonder Woman several years back. If you didn't like his writing, you were a homophobe. This was completely different from disliking the man himself (which unfortunately happened by other users), but we in general were disagreeing with the writing, not the man. Yet we were still called homophobes for disliking the direction he was taking Wonder Woman.

 

I think we're heading in this direction with the 9/11 stuff (from either side). It's going the same way as the homosexual stuff outlined above and with just about any political debate.

 

I honestly don't know what to do for the best. Lets look at the options:

 

We could ban such discussions.

 

We could institute a no-comebacks the-moderators-decision-is-final-&-indisputable regime, as many sites do.

 

We could state explicitly that threads in the "Real Life" forum and similar must live with a more liberal degree of moderation (only removing spammers & suchlike, not policing who is saying mean stuff to whom)

 

Doing less of anything is a guarantee that more of this will happen and it will spread to other areas of InsanelyMac. Also, banning discussions like this is a surefire way to make this spread to other areas of InsanelyMac. On the other side of the fence, "no comebacks" is a guarantee of topics like the one we're all responding in.

 

We should have a comittee of three users to review Real Life reports, and those three people should not post in that forum in order to foster impartiality. If a majority agrees, moderation happens. If not, then it goes on.

 

What we will not continue to do is to attempt to moderate an impossible quagmire & take abuse for so doing.

 

None of these options is going to please everyone.

 

I understand and I don't blame you for it. Any attempt to moderate a topic will result in "My rights are being violated" which if you are a regular reader of "Most Frequent WRONG Comments," you know you don't have free speech here. At this point, topic deletion and closure seems to be the only logical way to handle topics in there for the time being.

[CLiDE FTW!!1]

Trolling is fun.

 

Posts that are all positive and full of seem to be superficial, boring, naive, and anyone who is offended by trolling is obviously sheltered from the real world.

 

Opinions vary. Get used to it.

 

I like a positive atmosphere, but anyone who frowns upon debate shouldn't be posting on a message board.

[A Nonny Moose]

This from a poster who has a personal attack in their signature...