14 replies to this topic

[FunkyCatSpangky]

Dear all,

I have some questions about that new EFI layer ...

1. is the EFI layer a new hardware layer ?

or can I update my bios firmware and then get EFI on my system ?

2. at this point in time ... is there anyway to bypass the new EFI dependency on the new OS X ?

3. does the EFI layer plays a big part in the running of the os or is it just a boot up layer ?

4. can I install EFI on my system ?

[Arthur]

from what i've read so far i think it's safe to say EFI is a replacement of the current bios software and some intel boards already support it. Which means that some of us might be able to run 10.4.4 with a bios update.
Provided of course our beloved maxxuss (or any other RE expert for that matter) removes any protection systems.
Then again apple might have developed there own version of the EFI which is not entirely compatible with what's on the net now. In that case someone might have to modify a current EFI, copy/hack apple's EFI or whatever.

or am i totally missing the picture?

<EDIT>
to answer your questions:
1 No, a new type of BIOS
2 not a clue
3 it seems the EFI can/will provide a sandbox in which the os runs. managing network and other i/o. So: Big part
4 That of course depends on your system On some intel boards it's possible. But i can't say wether it would be compatible with apple's EFI.

Edited by Arthur, 12 January 2006 - 10:22 AM.

[supermegatron]

Well if we keep our current install of osx and use carboncopy cloner to copy over the system directory it might run

[brain21]

I too would like to know this.  I would love to buy a Dual-core  Yonah tabletPC and also install OSX on it (yes, I know it would have no tablet functionality under OSX).  However, there are no TabletPCs, or any windows laptops for that matter, using EFI.  Since Vista probably won't ship till the end of this year, we probably won't start seeing EFI laptops until about then either.  Or maybe not till CES next year.

I can't wait that long.  So it's either a MacBook, or a TabletPC with some sort of hack, be it grub or something else, that can get Intel-OSX booting and running on a Std PC Bios box.

HOPEFULLY there will be a definitive Mac on PCBios answer relatively soon (by say March) when I need to purchase the laptop!

The anticipation is just killing me.  I guess we will start seeing Vista on iMac info in the next 2 weeks or so though...

Brain21

[jchowland]

I just stumbled across this on Windows Vista 5270 - there's an EFI folder on the hard drive with a whole lot of EFI files that Vista loads at startup (or will load, when it gets to RTM). If that's the case, we might be able to hack with that when the time comes e.g. replace the EFI boot program that Windows will use with the OSX one...

Purely thought... after 5270 builds of Vista tho, who knows what might still go.

[Ransu]

FunkyCatSpangky, on Jan 12 2006, 03:37 AM, said:

I have some questions about that new EFI layer ...

You asked some relevant questions and people just ignored them.

First of all start here:

http://en.wikipedia....usted_computing
http://en.wikipedia....mware_Interface

EFI implementation is all done in hardware with full proprietary control remaining with the hardware vendor to the keys. You cannot by definition bypass the system without ripping off the EFI chip and CPU and replacing them with your own - after which every other EFI (TC) system in the world will refuse to work with it and you cannot open any files made with TC software or run any TC software.

This is really *BAD* thing and people should inform themselves about it rather than blather on an on about how wunderful it will be to run windows on it...

[brain21]

Hmmm....  With what Maxxus did w/ 10.4.3 whihc works w/ a BIOS, I am wondering if there is a way to basicaly rip that out of 10.4.3 and "patch" 10.4.4 so that it will (still) boot from a BIOS...

And if that DOES work, would it cause any problems w/ a universal binary version of something like Final Cut or Shake?  THen I could get a TabletPC & dual-boot.  Otherwise I'll get the MacBook...

Hopefully we will hear something in the coming weeks...

Brain21

[cyrana]

eLILO can boot EFI.  And I think GRUB can also (haven't checked, though). (I think I should be saying they can handle GPT though, perhaps?)

Probably more to it than just an EFI work-around to boot, since the new systems have different GPU firmware, etc., though.

Edited by cyrana, 13 January 2006 - 02:06 PM.

[dponmac]

so wait.. if vista uses EFI too does that mean we all gotta upgrade mobo's when it comes out? if thats the case im going to apple!!

[Gris]

May be it's possible to compile some sort of "community" version of macos x like: DTK + non EFI-related components of 10.4.4 + community drivers like OpenATI?..

[brain21]

dponmac, on Jan 13 2006, 10:24 AM, said:

so wait.. if vista uses EFI too does that mean we all gotta upgrade mobo's when it comes out? if thats the case im going to apple!!

I am assuming that the current builds of Vista support EFI already.  If that is the case then Vista will support both EFI and BIOS.

If Vista were to come out and NOT support PCBios, there will be a LOT of people - from customers to PC manufacturers - that will be incredibly pissed at M$.

It would be the biggest FUBAR that the PC world has seen I think.  I would expect to see TONS of people switching to OSX just out of spite.

I would be astounded if Vista did not support BOTH EFI & PCBios.

Brain21

[sparhawk]

On Vista
I'm pretty sure Vista will support both EFI and Bios, not sure if the EFI stuff works on the beta yet.

On EFI and the Macs.
EFI supports a compatiblity module which allows older software, PCI cards, etc. requiring a BIOS to run. This module is however optional, the question is if Apple added this module to the new Macs. If  they have then you will be able to install XP (or anything requiring a bios) on them.

http://www.apcmag.co...A2570F50012430B

[cyris ng]

The current min req of Vista beta makes me believe that current top of the range hardware wouldnt be the ideal platform to run Vista on. You'd need to buy a PC at the time Vista comes out and every PC that comes out would probably have EFI integrated. The other reason Intel did EFI was to remove legacy dependencies that still gets included with traditional BIOS.

[crazymonkeypants]

Ransu, on Jan 13 2006, 03:19 AM, said:

You asked some relevant questions and people just ignored them.

First of all start here:

http://en.wikipedia....usted_computing
http://en.wikipedia....mware_Interface

The first reference is irrelevant to EFI, and the second contains largely erroneous statements about the use of EFI drivers by the operating system.

A better read would be the overview sections of the EFI specification (freely available), which detail the intent and architecture of EFI.

Quote

EFI implementation is all done in hardware with full proprietary control remaining with the hardware vendor to the keys. You cannot by definition bypass the system without ripping off the EFI chip and CPU and replacing them with your own - after which every other EFI (TC) system in the world will refuse to work with it and you cannot open any files made with TC software or run any TC software.

This is really *BAD* thing and people should inform themselves about it rather than blather on an on about how wunderful it will be to run windows on it...

This is largely nonsense.

[Ouch]

I wouldn't be so sure about vista supporting PC bios. Most of microsoft's OS revenue comes from OEM pre-installs so specifying EFI as a requirement wouldn't be too much of blow - especially considering vista is a year away from release at least. By that time i would expect most chipset manufacturers to be supporting EFI - perhaps with a reflashing of the standard bios.

I'm not sure what trusted computing has to do with EFI but expect that to be a major part of Vista too - one of the lesser promoted sides of vista is that it will be taking DRM to whole new level. There have been discusions of displays using end to end encryption to prevent copying of movies.

Edited by 0uch!p0tat0, 14 January 2006 - 06:58 PM.