Semthex's Propaganda

[Swad]

wow, such drama!

i used to be one of the bigger programmers in the osx86 scene up until mash reared his ugly head. it was pretty clear what his intentions were for the entire 'scene' when he begged people to refer him for his free macbook. i really don't know how people thought he gave a damn about the 'scene'.

if you're interested just check my posting history.

Ok, let's just make one thing clear, here and now. I was here when the "scene" was started - I helped start it. It began with the first OSx86 channel (#OSx86) that I launched, and I worked with others to start the wiki and forum. To my knowledge (and everyone else at the time), there was nothing before that. To claim that you programmed a lot of things before I came around means that 1) you've got a time machine and were hacking on OSx86 before I was born or 2) you worked for Apple. And no, I didn't set up the referral program until quite awhile after starting the site... and I never begged. I even paid everyone back, for goodness sake.

 

You asked us to look at your post history, so I did. Indeed, you did register for an account here a few weeks after the forum was started. But none of your early posts showed that you were "one of the bigger programmers" in the "scene." I was also in the IRC channel when OSx86 was first hacked (the hidden one, called #xboxfans, where it was only the "bigger programmers" at the time) and your name isn't in the logs. Why haven't we all heard of the marvelous work you did in July (or, since you were around so much before me, April? Before WWDC?) of 2005?

 

I really don't mind people disagreeing with me, but if you want to call me a liar, just back up your claims with facts and evidence. Sampson, you clearly don't have any.

[Swad]

Just a note -

 

If you've got legitimate complaints here, that's one thing - if you post like an adult I'll treat the post as such.

 

If you're clearly flamebaiting, however, you can know that it's been against the site rules (and against every site's rules) since the beginning and won't be tolerated. Your post will be deleted and a Mod will have to approve all of your posts until you prove yourself capable of acting like an adult in an adult community.

 

Come to me with arguments and reasons and we can talk. You'll see that there are several posts in this thread and in the sale thread that disagree with me. That's fine, I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But I do expect civility and reason, not character attacks and baseless accusations.

 

Thread cleaned for flaming.

 

-Swad

[bwhsh8r]

Good questions. Semthex and I did try to work out our differences (well actually, mostly differences between he and other members of the staff), but in the end he decided he'd rather own his own IRC network. Kal is quite obviously not willing to talk

why are you trashing on semthex, his opinion is obviously not his alone.... and he did and *does* do great things for the osx86 project and hacking,

 

and i got on irc and Kal is more than willing to talk... he allready tried to twice...... (according to him.... hes been talking quite calm and logically to me.... although the excessive posting is annoying, he probably wouldnt do it if you just left a post or two of his (not saying you shouldnt delete the ones that break the rules etc.... but w/e)

 

 

thats just my view on that..... but you cant deny that semthex and JaS have done a ton for the project, and they still do, so nomatter what you think of them they are a major part of the driving force behind it because with out their and others hack's osx86 wouldnt be.

 

just my thoughts, please respond.

[(MoC)]

I have to agree with swad. Really now, there are people here who do for the sake of hacking not money. To me a dev makes a person who doesn't want any return for making code work. I'm not pointing fingers but clean up your act people.

[Swad]

bwhsh8r-

 

I've always said that JaS and Semthex have done a lot with OSx86 - there's no denying that and I respect their efforts! My point about Semthex was just that he's got a double standard - the principle of me earning money (through ads) is wrong, while the principle of him earning money (through direct cash) is right.

 

Kal is a different story. First, if he really did want to talk, he would have calmly approached me on IRC with his concerns about the sale (as a few did). Instead, he breaks every kind of forum rule he can trying to post a vindictive piece that was short on fact and long on exaggerations/outright-lies. He might have seemed calm on IRC when you talked with him - as I expect he would with most people but me, due to his odd hatred for sHARD>> initially and me by association - but I can assure you that wasn't the tenor of his conversation with me.

 

bwhsh8r, if you'd like the logs of Kal's "conversation" with me, I'll be happy to supply them. Part of his response would make a sailor blush, so I won't post them here, but they will be available to anyone who asks.

 

To me a dev makes a person who doesn't want any return for making code work. Semthex wants to buy a computer, for what??

Well I'll have to agree that a pay-per-patch sort of dev mentality doesn't make much sense. However, I won't fault Semthex for wanting a new computer - I can see how it would help (I know my first Mac helped me with the forum immensely).

[(MoC)]

You have a point swad. I also want a new mac but I was pointing out the fact that osx86 was his paycheck. From what I've heard...

 

Oh I also edited the other post. I was getting a guilty concious

[arenared]

Well I'll have to agree that a pay-per-patch sort of dev mentality doesn't make much sense. However, I won't fault Semthex for wanting a new computer - I can see how it would help (I know my first Mac helped me with the forum immensely).

 

 

out of curiosity:

 

did he get his new computer?

[Mebster]

why are you trashing on semthex, his opinion is obviously not his alone.... and he did and *does* do great things for the osx86 project and hacking,

bwhsh8r,

my good old buddy I think Mash was indeed 'trashing' Semthex, but for good reason possibly. If Semthex really is a two-timing lunatic who considers it a Godly sin for sHARD>> (who lets face it did a lot for us) to be compensated for his good work but on the other hand smilingly take a pocket of the gold stuff himself, then he needs to be 'trashed'. Especially when you're trashing someone else and showing that you’re on the higher ground. Of course there is a big IF here.

 

And to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if Kal welcomed you with flowers because you're not Swad. I'm not saying what Kal said or did was right or wrong just that ideally you need to look at his behaviour in Mashes (gonna use that from now) presence

 

----------------------------

EDIT:

Swad, that was some of my best stuff . But for the better of the community sacrifice was necessary (i thing?). Thanks for asking me and giving me the chance to remove it myself. DONE.

[Bruce Wang]

1. Long time ago, a Father built a crude canopy at a remote site

2. The people nearby started going there for purifying their minds

3. Words spreaded, more and more people came

4. Some voluntarily brought some wood and built the roof

5. Some voluntarily brought some bricks and built the walls

6. Some voluntarily made the door, chairs and table, .......

7. More and more people came, a community was formed

8. Finally a noble church was completed

9. That Father sold the church to a company

10. Some people left, some remained

 

Just a small fish here, my opinion is not even worth a penny.

 

Bruce

[Swad]

Bruce, your opinion is valued. There are a lot of differences between this place and a church, and between the selling of this site and the sale of a church, but your post was the most interesting to read of all!

[(MoC)]

So, now, umm.... What's gonna happen to the site?

[xtraa]

SWAD,

 

face it, you just made $70.000 out of warez. The warez is the illegal

and hacked version from OS X, and this site is all about it.

 

I deleted this and the rest because...

 

... I thought it over. Maybe it is just too much blame for nothing. As long

as no one sells DVDs here it would be unfair to make a point out of this.

 

So, I hope that everything goes well with your college and of course that

the future on this board will be as good as the past one and a half years

[Swad]

So, now, umm.... What's gonna happen to the site?

It's going to grow and improve in ways that would have been impossible had I not sold it. The new team has an awesome vision for the site that includes all the things we want, I know they'll do a great job taking us forward.

 

face it, you just made $70.000 out of warez.

xtraa, I think making money off of warez would be printing DVDs and selling it in small Chinese fish markets. Even though a ton of people use this site to talk about OSx86, this site is about more than that. Have you seen the way the AppleTV forum has taken off? People come here for more than OSx86.

 

Thats right, but from an exact point of view, they and maxxuss plus a bunch of another 10 people did it all.

Patches in isolation don't do any good though... people need to be able to talk about it somewhere. This website provides a service, just like any restaurant or pub (only everything here is free) - a place for people to come and talk about things. A community developed and was always the focus of things, not money.

 

Let's drop kcnscrew a mail about that, to consider about selling serialseeker for mac from now on. Maybe they will donate the websites, that support their work.

Do you see the difference, though, between selling something you've developed and placing ads on a website?

 

1. For the first one, the user has to pay something - in the second, the user gets everything free.

2. With the selling of a product, the user is tied to the product, having bought it. With a forum, users are free to leave whenever they'd like.

3. Advertising is totally voluntary and does more good than harm - someone only clicks it when they have found something useful.

 

I understand your point, but there are huge differences between the two.

[xtraa]

Hi Swad,

 

thanks for your reply Yes i already edited my post. I think this topic leads into over-

reaction and nothing else. After I thought about it again, I came to the opinion that this

whole discussion is much air about nothing. Or to say it with JaS words: "who cares"

 

It was your good right to sell the site that you made and you did it. It does not make any

sense to talk about "if then why what", because it is not that worse and you made a

decision that will help you with college stuff.

 

I can also understand semthex, that he feels a little like he was sold. But I still hope that

the people who make the patches and hacks here will still make it for free

 

Also I hope that there won't be too much trouble here, especially betwen semthex and

you. Because you both are nice guys

[U.C.]

It was your good right to sell the site that you made and you did it. It does not make any

sense to talk about "if then why what", because it is not that worse and you made a

decision that will help you with college stuff.

 

I can also understand semthex, that he feels a little like he was sold. But I still hope that

the people who make the patches and hacks here will still make it for free

 

Also I hope that there won't be too much trouble here, especially betwen semthex and

you. Because you both are nice guys

 

Totally agree with you man.

[AppleLegal]

If you hadnt realized, AppleTV folks are concerned with *gasp* hacking their AppleTV. Which by chance runs on x86 processors and is a variant of OS X. It's still osx86 hacking.

[Swad]

If you hadnt realized, AppleTV folks are concerned with *gasp* hacking their AppleTV. Which by chance runs on x86 processors and is a variant of OS X. It's still osx86 hacking.

Thanks for clearing that up for me - I was indeed a little confused...

 

My point was just that InsanelyMac has always been about more than just OSx86 as traditionally defined, being "the running of OS X on non-Apple hardware."

 

xtraa - I totally agree as well.

[Star]

xtraa, I think making money off of warez would be printing DVDs and selling it in small Chinese fish markets. Even though a ton of people use this site to talk about OSx86, this site is about more than that. Have you seen the way the AppleTV forum has taken off? People come here for more than OSx86.

 

If Apple had never switched to Intel chips giving people the desire and opportunity to warez and hack OS X, the OSx86 scene would have never been born. Which in turn means this site would have never been here since even if its a general mac site now, it was made off osx86project.org. So while you aren't standing on the street selling DVD-Rs with JaS.DVD burned on them, the desire to hack OS X to run on normal PCs is what started this place.

 

Star

[Swad]

If Apple had never switched to Intel chips giving people the desire and opportunity to warez and hack OS X, the OSx86 scene would have never been born. Which in turn means this site would have never been here since even if its a general mac site now, it was made off osx86project.org. So while you aren't standing on the street selling DVD-Rs with JaS.DVD burned on them, the desire to hack OS X to run on normal PCs is what started this place.

I agree Star. We did start the site with the idea that people would need a place to talk about OSx86 work and development - but from the beginning I also wanted it to be about the Intel transition in general. The two aren't diametrically opposed, and both were (and still are) the major factors behind the success of the site.

[Mebster]

I can't say money wasn't made on the backs of others because it was (as well as Swads back too) but what at least gives me some calm is the fact that some of those very people who helped make this what it is will be given something to show the appreciation. I don't really care if he made $70,00 or $700,000 as long as the people who work hard to provide what this site needs to survive are also rewarded.

 

Also I know this is a major issue for everyone (rightly so to be honest) but the 'mature' matter of fact is that what is done is done. I only see a 2 options. We all try and get along for the better of the community we have or we go off and make a different community. Ultimately all this will settle one way or another. Just whatever happens I hope it's for the best of the osxproject.

 

I have to say initially I wasn't too sure of Swads position but I'm understanding more. It's difficult to even try and understand when you have rage filled within you (as I'm sure some wise Chinese guy would say)

[Cyman]

There is a german saying which goes like "Friendship stops when it is about the money". It shows that this seems to be true as well as money sometimes rottens the character. I can't judge about the whole situation because I didn't follow the discussion, but in my opinion there is nothing bad about making money from something - if you have an idea, a concept or some innovation in mind why not commercializing it, before someone other does? You can't imagine how often I was like "Damn, these guys stole my idea - why didn't I do it?". In most of the cases the answer is easy: because you need the sense of risking something and you need to afford the means to get started with your idea. If you are not very fortunate in terms of wealth/money this is not always easy though!

The most important thing though for me remains the fact "to keep it real". As long as the spirit is there and you don't do it just for the money, I think it is ok. If you keep the aspect of fairness in mind and you want to share something with many people I think there is absolutely nothing immoral about it. Only the people who just think about profits, giving a f*** about the victims and the negative/destructive aspects of their behavior (like the whole industry) should be blamed for what they do. Thinking about what is happening to our planet right now and look at people and governments like these of a certain G. W. B. (won't pronounce his name - there are many other examples out there) and all these CEOs of companies making billions and billions of profit and kicking out thousands of employees (while the CEOs earn millions), producing in cheaper countries, polluting and exploiting makes me sick!

Sorry for going a bit off-topic, but power and money, this is what all seems to be about, sadly!

[Embio]

Jesus Christ this is daft.

 

If I could speak for the little guy here? This community is fantastic, I check these forums 4 or 5 times a day and really enjoy reading and learning about how OS X and my Mac works and how to get them to do more. I'm in a rush, so the next points will be a little ill-ordered/thought out.

 

- Swad: what exactly is a 'good' or 'bad' dev?! Semthex's kernels are now very widespread on OSx86 installations, I think the guy works damn hard to produce kernels that work well on standard hardware - which is what we all want more of. I honestly think this community is worth a lot less with him gone.

 

- Semtex & Followers: I take your point about InsanelyMac selling out, and censorship should never be tolerated. However, when I last checked OSx86 is only a part of this forum, not the be all and end all. I spend most of my time in the Macintosh-orientated areas. My point is there is more than the old OSx86project being sold here.

 

its unfortunate, but money is a fact of life. I dont want this forum to go the way of any number of open-source projects like OpenBSD/NetBSD or..... well take your pick really. I dont think anyone wants that.

 

please sort out your differences and get your {censored} together.

[A Nonny Moose]

Embio, it's not that easy.

 

The main question becomes (once again) "Does InsanelyMac promote (whether actively or passively) copyright infringement?" Let's not delude ourselves here, as this site has gotten in trouble once before with Apple itself for this very same topic.

 

Now this site is making money, which brings a whole lot of other issues into the pot. Not only is the above question still valid, it is also bringing up a whole new facet to this question, as re-worded below:

 

"Is InsanelyMac promoting (whether actively or passively) and making money off of copyright infringement?"

 

If you think that kind of question is scary, well...it is kind of scary. As much as I like this forum and the community, that is a serious and damning question that needs to be addressed.

[Swad]

Swad: what exactly is a 'good' or 'bad' dev?!

You know, I was wrong with what I said earlier. I'll be honest, I was upset that Kal (if he was acting alone) was spamming these things and, let's be honest, it's not easy to put up with someone attacking your character on false accusations. What I said about Semthex was wrong - he has done good work (which I've said all along) and I shouldn't have been so vindictive. I apologize. I still thing his point about "selling out" is moot due to all the reasons I've talked about, but I should have exercised a lot more tact here. I was wrong and I hope everyone can forgive me (including Semthex). I plan to talk with him later today about the whole matter.

 

and censorship should never be tolerated.

This is a good point, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. Some people have claimed that I'm censoring things here, which is clearly not the case. If you read through this thread and the sale thread, you'll find a good number of posts that disagree with me. I let them stand because I appreciate the discussion. It's the reason this thread is still going, for people to express their opinions.

 

I draw the line, though, on any post that 1) is made only to upset me or someone else (also known as flaming) or is 2) spam. That's it. Every post that I've pulled down from this thread or the first one have fit into one of those two categories. In most cases, I've talked with the person who posted them and given them the chance to fix things, all the while having their posts approved by a Mod before they're seen by all. That's it. I'd be happy to justify any moderation action I've made in this regard - I think you'll see I'm just upholding the same standards any forum has to (although, since tensions are high right now, it seems suddenly like an infringement of "rights")

 

"Is InsanelyMac promoting (whether actively or passively) and making money off of copyright infringement?"

Well, this has always been the question really - we've always been upfront about the ads and where the money goes (most of it saved or going for tech upgrades). Actively? Nope, I don't think so, since I think that's what printing a DVD would look like. Passively? Perhaps. The existence of this site could be seen as creating a venue to facilitate copyright infringement, but then any venue can be used for anything you'd like. That's where I think the moral and legal "bright line" is - is it wrong to open up a community, with the clear understanding that the owners who maintain it will earn money, if that community is open for discussion that may help people do something against a EULA? I would argue no. If we were actively promoting it, the story might be different. The earning of money through ads on a site where people are free to post what they choose is arguably the most passive of all earnings.

[Embio]

This forum allows people to talk about what they want to talk about in a free and open way....

 

...apparently people can now make money of free speech. For me thats very, very different to - as Swad put it - starting to print DVDs and selling them.