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God, why don't people believe in the idea?


djpc47
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Unworthy of my belief. Better? =]

 

The reason for belief in God is that he is universal good and love.

 

God does not exhibit universal good or love.

 

Therefore, the reason for belief in God is invalid.

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Belief shouldn't even be used in connection with the concept of atheism. Atheism is DISBELIEF. Belief is to have faith in the truth of something that isn't proven to be a solid fact. Belief is a chance, a guide through the dark. Belief pertains most predominantly to religion....atheism is not a religion, it is an acceptance of that which is scientifically and logically impossible. It is one of the many possible results of seeing through the dark...on your own terms.

 

If you've reached true enlightenment at any point in your life, then you have likely come to understand how the core of existence truly stands upon a multitude of paradox....once you've realized how concrete and logical the many paradoxes we live within truly are, you can more easily comprehend how the word 'God' is merely a concept, a beacon, a figurehead, a metaphor for a paradox which can not be understood by many otherwise.

 

The true existence of a God is utterly and completely irrelevant in the end of things.

 

No worries, I have no issues with people who have belief systems, I only have issues with people who have issues with the fact that I lack a belief system, and think that I (and everyone else in the world) should be in their belief system only.

 

If all of that sounds like total BS to you, try reading the I Ching. It's the only historical piece of religious literature I've ever read that is wholly devoid of hypocrisy. In fact, to me, it's more akin to reading a textbook on quantum mechanics than it is to being what most would consider a religious text.

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I dont define Atheism as a lack of belief or ambivalence. It's a belief system in which God does not exist (which isnt proven in any way).

 

If an Atheist is someone who only believes in what is proven or factual, then he believes that God may or may not exist, because it is proven (logically) that God either does or does not exist. It is not proven that God exists, or that God doesnt exist.

 

A Theist believes that G is true.

 

An Atheist believes that ~G is true.

 

An Agnostic believes that G v ~G is true.

 

Without evidence, G cannot be proven and ~G cannot be proven. But G v ~G is completely provable.

 

In other words... A theist believes in God for whatever reason. An Atheist believes that there is no God (with or without proof). And an agnostic believes that the question is irrelevant as it cannot be proven either way.

 

By that definition, I am an Atheist. I disbelieve in God. He doesnt exist. And deluding myself by trying to prove the impossible to prove is foolhardy.

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A larger issue I see is the misuse of the word "God".

 

When "God" is used as a replacement for something that cannot be understood, it does a great disservice to language and understanding. The use of the word "God" to explain anything but a supernature being can only confuse those that are trying to understand. For example, Einstein is often quoted as having a belief in "God", however he indeed uses it for that which we do not yet understand. Unfourtunatley, his words are often misconstrude by those that would wish to push thier narrow minded religions on others, in an effort to open the illogical to those that would otherwise be logical. I mean, if Einstein believed in God then....

 

Let's use "God" in the super natural sense of the word:

Q: What created the universe?

A: God.

Q: Who created God?

A: No one. God always existed.

Q: But how is that possible?

A: This is just the way it is.

Q: But there has to be an answer?

A: Just have faith.

 

This is the most common way "God" is used to answer this. It unfortunately answers nothing, but instead asks one to simply stop asking the question, after it raises more questions.

 

Now, lets use "God" as a replacement for the unknown, don't know, not sure, have no idea, etc..."

Q: What created the universe?

A: God

Q: What created God?

A: God

Q: What created God?

A: God

...

...

 

Gets us nowhere fast.

 

 

Now lets try the proper way:

Q: What created the universe?

A: Not sure, but we think it may have been a big bang.

Q: What created the big bang?

A: Don't know. Lets keep looking.

 

See how not using the word "God" gets us to the truth much quicker, while at the same time driving us to understand more, and refine our current understanding?

 

So while it may seem so very "enlightened" to simply say "God" is a "metaphor", this can actually create more problems than it solves. It still allows for use of the word "God" where it otherwise should not be used. What is God a metaphor for? It's in these cracks in human language and understanding that religion festers.

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Well, there's a HUGE difference between things science hasnt adequately explained and things science cannot explain (no known phenomena).

 

If someone can name a physical phenomena that science cannot explain at all, I'd be interested in hearing it =]

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There are many things left for science to explain, and explain thoroughly.

 

As for something science cannot explain at all, that depends. All things could be explained in time, but does science (human science) have enough time? Since the human race seems likely to destroy itself long before it can ever gain a full understanding of everything, odds are, there are some things that science will never be able to fully explain. belief in God, however, seems to lower those odds even more. Difficult to get a leg up on understanding when you can just answer "God" to everything and move on.

 

I know. Not the exact answer to your question. But, I'm just busy kicking a dead horse. This "It doesn't matter if people believe in God or not" attitude that's so prevalent is in complete opposition to reality. Belief in God, and especially organized religion, do nothing to further human understanding of our surroundings in a useful and scientific way -- instead it does the exact opposite. If we want to ensure the survival of our race, then we better stop chasing fairies and get on with learning as much as we can. (This is not to imply I don't support the Arts. Creative writing, musical exploration, abstract painting... all wonderful explorations for the mind... as long as you don't start drinking your own kool-aid)

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People make claims all the time that Science cant answer a question. Well... I want an example of something that can be perceived with a human's senses that is incapable of being explained scientifically.

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I am an atheist/agnostic (i'll explain in a sec), and it's not because i don't have the capability to have faith, or because i am passimistic about life or immoral. i was raised in a catholic household, and my parents intilled into me a very christian set of morals. however, they were always intelligent and open-minded, as i have learned to become. with age, some of my moral views have shifted, while others remain constant.

 

however, i do not believe in a god. at least not in the traditional sense. i am atheist in the sense that i do not believe that there is something out there that serves as a basis for morality or behavior, and certainly not something that interferes directly in our daily lives. however, i am agnostic in the sense that i hold the possibility of some kind of creator, though not necessarily superior to humans or even conscious of creating them, and i am certainly a believer in evolution.

 

Basically, my core belief system is very simple:

 

1. Immorality is based on what harms someone/causes others pain

2. Never, EVER trust anything just because it is said. Never have blind faith.

 

I am all for faith in people/things you really trust, but they must prove themselves to you. I wouldn't follow a politician without ever meeting them, reading about their views, or asking questions--just hearing someone else praise them is not enough for me. The same goes for God. People always want something to believe in...an explanation for mysteries and feelings, a comfort in death. Why don't people just appreciate this life and adhere to their own set of morals? you don't need to praise someone you have never met to live a good life. praise humanity and yourself for its amazing accomplishments.

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Well you see... It's hard to believe in an invisible man... specially when you look back at history.. and see the effects of a belief in God... well you kinda feel bad about believing in anything really.

 

Theres a great essay from Robert Green Ingersoll, that pretty much will put (anyone who can understand it anyways) any thought on god into question.

 

Here's the link http://www.infidels.org/library/historical...m_agnostic.html

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Well you see... It's hard to believe in an invisible man...

 

You really have no idea about the concept of God (or Christianity), do you?

 

God may be invisible to us, but he is BY NO MEANS a man. Jesus is in heaven, and not here on Earth, so you can't use that one either. The Holy Spirit is the mediator, and that is the real "invisible" part of the trinity. That's why its called a "spirit."

 

Here's the stupid metaphor again: You can't see the wind, but you can feel it and see the effects it has on things. Is it so stupid to believe in wind? The only difference is is that God's actions can be explained away in almost any case.

 

Explain this: A friend of the family's 2 year old child fell in a swimming pool on Saturday. This child was without oxygen for 20 minutes according to the doctors. He is still alive. He still has brain function (we still don't know how much; its too early to tell). He only relies on the respirator about 30 percent. Every doctor said he should already be dead.

 

Chew on that.

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Explain this: A friend of the family's 2 year old child fell in a swimming pool on Saturday. This child was without oxygen for 20 minutes according to the doctors. He is still alive. He still has brain function (we still don't know how much; its too early to tell). He only relies on the respirator about 30 percent. Every doctor said he should already be dead.

 

The human body, especially a child's, is amazingly resilient. The cold helps preserve the brain when deprived of oxygen, and this is well documented.

 

While you could say God made this happen, simply because you want to use "God" as a stand-in when you are unable to understand the situation, this doesn't in itself prove the existence of God.

 

That said, my best is with that child's family, and I hope the damage to the mind is not that great. That this happened early in the child's life does give a better chance. I shudder to think of going through the same with my child.

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You really have no idea about the concept of God (or Christianity), do you?

 

God may be invisible to us, but he is BY NO MEANS a man. Jesus is in heaven, and not here on Earth, so you can't use that one either. The Holy Spirit is the mediator, and that is the real "invisible" part of the trinity. That's why its called a "spirit."

 

Here's the stupid metaphor again: You can't see the wind, but you can feel it and see the effects it has on things. Is it so stupid to believe in wind? The only difference is is that God's actions can be explained away in almost any case.

 

Explain this: A friend of the family's 2 year old child fell in a swimming pool on Saturday. This child was without oxygen for 20 minutes according to the doctors. He is still alive. He still has brain function (we still don't know how much; its too early to tell). He only relies on the respirator about 30 percent. Every doctor said he should already be dead.

 

Chew on that.

 

 

Wind is not a thing, it is the byproduct of the thing (changing pressure, the oxygen molecules MOVED from one location to another, but the wind itself is not real). God is no different, god is not real, but the things we attribute to god ARE real when in reality it is only events we have little/no knowledge about.

 

As for the boy who has lost brain function but not as much as most people would have in the same situation. I'm sure theres a logical, physical explanation for that too, I just dont know what it is. But in the vast majority of cases, the person in the water WOULD be dead.

 

Your explanation for god has absolutely no logic, use the Boy in the water for example. You say he was without oxygen for 20 minutes and still has brain function so "chew on that (god must be real)"

 

that explanation follows a form as follows:

 

A has B

 

Therefore C must be the answer

 

Argument is not sound

Argument is not coherent

Argument...isn't even valid.

 

Learn how to use valid, sound arguments in real life before you go spouting off what you think...

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I used the metaphor of invisible man cause... I don't know how your analizing abilities are but... IT JUST HAPPENS TO CALL MY ATTENTION.. that pretty much everything in the bible, every example and everything descripted, amazingly is from animals, and pretty much everything the people that wrote it had around them... they molded god like a man... they even call him king... (at least the christian ones). Thats the reason.

 

And yeah.. nice that kid is alive and well. Now you're going to tell me that computers were invented by the grace of god? lol

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I used the metaphor of invisible man cause... I don't know how your analizing abilities are but... IT JUST HAPPENS TO CALL MY ATTENTION.. that pretty much everything in the bible, every example and everything descripted, amazingly is from animals, and pretty much everything the people that wrote it had around them... they molded god like a man... they even call him king... (at least the christian ones). Thats the reason.

 

And yeah.. nice that kid is alive and well. Now you're going to tell me that computers were invented by the grace of god? lol

 

 

Seriously! Good post

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thanx killbot :D I hope brainbone reads the bible completely once again kinda searching for those patterns... im sure he'll be amazed. But hey... who knows... everyone is afraid of having their beliefs altered... maybe he won't cause of that. I dare you to do so. get some history going on... real one, and you'll be amazed.

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people will always try to find a scientific solution for the unexplained.

 

I once heard a tape of a sunday school teacher teaching a lesson whos voice had been crippled for 3 years. He sounded like a frog, and the doctors had no idea what had happened. The doctors had said that there was no explanation for the scar tissue on his vocal cords, and that within another two years, he would be completely silent. two weeks later, (as i heard on the tape), his voice went COMPLETELY back to normal in a matter of seconds. The doctor (who was an atheist) told the teacher, "In my field of expertise, there is no way to explain what happened to you, but in your field of expertise, there is. The scar tissue on your vocal cords has disappeared. There is no sign that it was ever there." (not a direct quote, but extremely close).

 

My point is that science, medicine, etc. can only explain so much. Science calls cases like these "anomalies." Is it so wrong to believe that maybe theres something more powerful out there?

 

You can't just put strawberries and yogurt in a cup and wait for it to turn into a smoothie. You have to blend it up. It requires some source of outside power to make something from nothing.

 

Nature shows that things go from order to chaos, not from chaos to order. This is the problem with evolution... (very mild argument, not intended as a point)

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people will always try to find a scientific solution for the unexplained. (quoting)

 

Well hasn't it ever occured to you.. that science is not evil? it's just a way to try to understand everything around you. If it weren't because someone tried to understand how the human body works, most of us would be dead like really early, there wouldn't be any vaccines, there wouldn't be anything we take for granted.

 

Can someone please get some good history classes on our schools?

 

You are born, and you know absolutely nothing. Only that you exist. The ideal of god, is actually taught, it doesn't come naturally. Everything around is confusing, science is just making questions about how everything works, and trying to answer them the best they can, with facts, with replicability (meaning that if you throw a rock up , you can see that it falls back down, over and over again till you come to a conclusion that it will always be like that, for those that don't use the dictionary). Religion.. well they just make things up.. nothing powerful there. I would like to see something useful religion has given mankind, besides mind control techniques.

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people will always try to find a scientific solution for the unexplained.

 

I once heard a tape of a sunday school teacher teaching a lesson whos voice had been crippled for 3 years. He sounded like a frog, and the doctors had no idea what had happened. The doctors had said that there was no explanation for the scar tissue on his vocal cords, and that within another two years, he would be completely silent. two weeks later, (as i heard on the tape), his voice went COMPLETELY back to normal in a matter of seconds. The doctor (who was an atheist) told the teacher, "In my field of expertise, there is no way to explain what happened to you, but in your field of expertise, there is. The scar tissue on your vocal cords has disappeared. There is no sign that it was ever there." (not a direct quote, but extremely close).

 

My point is that science, medicine, etc. can only explain so much. Science calls cases like these "anomalies." Is it so wrong to believe that maybe theres something more powerful out there?

 

You can't just put strawberries and yogurt in a cup and wait for it to turn into a smoothie. You have to blend it up. It requires some source of outside power to make something from nothing.

 

Nature shows that things go from order to chaos, not from chaos to order. This is the problem with evolution... (very mild argument, not intended as a point)

 

 

See heres the main problem with what you're saying

 

"I heard a tape from..."

 

also, the doctor part...very "touching", but irrelevant, the doctor was incorrect in saying that there is NO explanation in his line of work for why the "scar tissue" disappeared. The answer may just be BEYOND current science and in another 20 years there will be an explanation for it. But I'm betting theres a much more logical explanation for this, the doctor misinterpreted what he saw?, the case doesnt exist?, etc. I mean come on its just posted on a mac forum, that doesn't make it true.

 

Also, lets just say the story was true. Statistically 99.999 percent of the time, the patient turns out exactly as the doctor says. Out of millions of cases, we dont go shouting out at the top of our lungs when one of our relatives actually dies from cancer in 6 months like the doctor says...no, we only go out shouting if our relative recovered against overwhelming odds. Then we point to the sky and say "god did it, my prayers have been answered!!!!!!!111!!".

 

Is this really so hard to explain without a supernatural explanation? I would say most definitely "NO!"

 

Reason being, humans are nothing more than machines...Damn amazing complicated machines, doctors are like the 8 year old ripping apart their dad's computer, they kinda figure out what everything does, and what causes the computer not to turn on (die) but the 8 year old knows little to none of how a computer REALLY works (binary code, memory adresses, etc.). Doctors are no different when it comes to the human body, sure we are learning more everyday, but there are just so many variables that anomalies are BOUND to happen.

 

I know you need a band-aid or a crutch or whatever when it comes to the spirituality department (like most people do). But dont spout it off as fact, when it is clearly not. Don't try to argue your beliefs on a logical level, because quite frankly they are illogical. Just accept them, and move on with your life, a Christian arguing against an intelligent agnostic/atheist will lose almost every time. But you don't need to win arguments, your Christian, your faith should be more than enough to guide you. You don't quibble with things like "proof" and "logic" unless the proof and logic agree with what you think, so why don't you just stop denying it and accept it?

 

(I realize that what I just said is a stereotype and a generalization, but every day I live my life, my generalization is being proven more and more true...I'm sorry, but thats all I can say)

 

science is not the enemy here (GOD NO!) Ignorance is the enemy.

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