Jump to content

Apple: Form vs. Function


  • Please log in to reply
161 replies to this topic

#41
Jacob Seaton

Jacob Seaton

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Just Joined
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
Function is most important. But, there is no matching the mac visual experience.

#42
Dangemite

Dangemite

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Just Joined
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia
The form of the computers made by Apple just craps all over the other windoze boxes out there, but form also includes the user experience.

Sort of wholistic. Or something.

Give me a Mac anyday - if I had 10c for every time I had to fix someone's PC...

#43
GBK.Xscape

GBK.Xscape

    Carpe Deim

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 960 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Diego, California
haha nanny noose if u think i am going to prove to you that hp is selling those laptops then think again. its {censored} to you and me becuase i have a macbbok pro and i the reason i have one is becuase my hp laptop broke 3 times in 1 month. they gave me my thousand dollars back and i upgraded to the macbook pro core 2 duo.

#44
pyrates

pyrates

    InsanelyMac Sage

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 479 posts
  • Gender:Male
Oh I love this topic.

Apple uses notebook components in all their computers except for the workstations, which therefore they make them more expensive then a pc. It also makes them not as fast performance wise. Ask any gamer that games on pc's and they will tell you they don't care what their pc's case looks like. Rather they care about how fast it is. As do most pc users. They want the most bang for the buck. And that is what pc's deliver.

Think about it this way. For apple to modify the form factor so that it doesn't look as good but then they'd be able to use desktop parts, you'd probably get a faster mac for the same price. But apple won't sacrifice the looks of the product for that at all.

Finally one more point I'd like to bring up. Now that mac's are using intel cpu's, we now can watch for months to go by before they release a product that uses that new chip. All other PC makers, they have them right away for sale. The mac faithful are use to waiting for stuff like this. The rest of us using PC's don't like to wait and when we see another pc maker using the new intel cpu's already and apple has no mention of it when they will have them ready, they will just buy a PC instead of a Mac.

So to me, function over form any day.

#45
RockoTDF

RockoTDF

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 26 posts

Apple uses notebook components in all their computers except for the workstations, which therefore they make them more expensive then a pc. It also makes them not as fast performance wise. Ask any gamer that games on pc's and they will tell you they don't care what their pc's case looks like. Rather they care about how fast it is. As do most pc users. They want the most bang for the buck. And that is what pc's deliver.


I think most gamers actually spend a little extra cash, if not a ton, on a case they think looks cool.

#46
CLiDE FTW!!1

CLiDE FTW!!1

    Lay off the pipe.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 871 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada, eh?

I would say Apples complete control is one of the things that truly holds them back :D

Agreed. But if Apple decided to go the MS route and distribute copies of OS X like Windows, Apple would lose hardware sales.

But if Apple really wanted to sweep the market away from MS, they could do that, and make Rosetta run Windows applications easily.

Then Microsoft would be done for.

But until then, Microsoft, whether you like it or not, STILL has a strong hold on this market.

#47
macmaniac

macmaniac

    hackaholic

  • Donators
  • 322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ripbum.BC.Canada
Form and function. They are beautiful, and they perform. Performance not in a price to GFLOP sense, but performance in the sense of easy to use and hassle free. On native hardware, OSX is very stable, and virtually no bugs/viruses/malware/spyware.

The minimally computer literate home user loves the mac. It works, and they don't need bleeding edge speed for surfing, email, photos, music. Its all Easy.

The minimally computer literate power user (graphics/audio professional) gets reasonable power/price (quite competitive, if you do the math) along with solid pro apps, once again, hassle free.

"Bill, where's that new video clip? I need it right now"
"Sorry, its not ready yet, spent all morning with tech support, trying to fix my WinXP....."

Most of us here are computer hobbyists, but there are pleny of consumers out there that want to use a computer without having to understand how it works, and not have to figure out how to fix it all the time.

I'd say that nicely integrated hardware/software is worth a small premium, but probably not to most of us here..... :)

Apple has found its (yes, small) niche markets. Apple is doing well enough doing what it is doing. Apple has long given up selling to the gEeK/overclokR/gAmerZ crowd. Its time we got over it.

#48
ResX

ResX

    InsanelyHack

  • Retired
  • 818 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Art, Music, People, Macs
Ive been a mac user since I was 3, and over the years, function and form sometimes traded places. For instance, my 6150/66 Workgroup Server was a flat, lean, machine. It looked cool because it was really flat and low profile for its time, but the performance wasnt all that great (66 mhz, 72 mb ram, around 1995). But, when i got a G3 beige desktop, it blew every other peecees doors off (at the time. 333mhz, 128mb ram, around 1998), but the case was HUGE, and looked odd and kinda bulgy. It wasnt until around 2001, when i picked up the oh-so-coveted imacs of the time, that both form and function worked together(kinda). It looked awesome and was pretty powerful, albeit, also expensive (I payed $1200 for 700 mhz, 256 mb ram, 64 mb video card, and a dvd-rom).

For me, it needs to be a balance of the two. I need the performing power, but the looks are also very important me. When i recently visited my friend who built his own gaming machine, it was fast as hell, but the form was horrible. The motherboard was so big, that he had to buy a huge tower, which was probably even bigger than a monster g5 tower case, and was made of translucent acrylic, black acrylic, and several embeded bright blue LEDs. Just lookign at it both gave me a headache and made me almost go blind. He told me that when he goes to sleep he has to either cover the case with a black tshirt or shut it down completely. The worst part is something apple has executed perfectly on almost all their computers for the last 5 years--cooling. The beast needed 4, 120 mm fans and 2, 180 mm fans to keep it at an egg frying 183 degrees Fahrenheit. My mac mini is barely audible, even when accompanied by an external WD hard drive, and, on a bad day, the needle barely touches 169 degrees Fahrenheit. of course the processing power isnt comparable, but for casual, and sometimes somewhat rigorous use, it performs fine. Ie been able to play many games without a problem. Even COD2 runs ok on it.

So, ill take form over function, but with enough function to get work done.

Edited by ResXhacker, 01 January 2007 - 12:39 AM.


#49
henchman

henchman

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 76 posts

For me, it needs to be a balance of the two. I need the performing power, but the looks are also very important me. When i recently visited my friend who built his own gaming machine, it was fast as hell, but the form was horrible. The motherboard was so big, that he had to buy a huge tower, which was probably even bigger than a monster g5 tower case, and was made of translucent acrylic, black acrylic, and several embeded bright blue LEDs. Just lookign at it both gave me a headache and made me almost go blind. He told me that when he goes to sleep he has to either cover the case with a black tshirt or shut it down completely. The worst part is something apple has executed perfectly on almost all their computers for the last 5 years--cooling. The beast needed 4, 120 mm fans and 2, 180 mm fans to keep it at an egg frying 183 degrees Fahrenheit. My mac mini is barely audible, even when accompanied by an external WD hard drive, and, on a bad day, the needle barely touches 169 degrees Fahrenheit. of course the processing power isnt comparable, but for casual, and sometimes somewhat rigorous use, it performs fine. Ie been able to play many games without a problem. Even COD2 runs ok on it.

So, ill take form over function, but with enough function to get work done.

It's obviouse your friend built a arcore oerclocked game machine.
I guarntee you you couldn't play half the games he has at the FPS and screen quality.

#50
pyrates

pyrates

    InsanelyMac Sage

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 479 posts
  • Gender:Male

It's obviouse your friend built a arcore oerclocked game machine.
I guarntee you you couldn't play half the games he has at the FPS and screen quality.


haha You nailed it. He's trying to compare a highend gaming machine that is over clocked as well against his mac mini with on board graphics. Some people really are delusional. They are in 2 different classes. Plus PC users have been able to buy quad core intel pc's for a while now. Why haven't mac users been able to? They use the same chips after all. Maybe if Apple started to use desktop cpu's instead of laptop cpu's they could do that on their desktop models. But that's the price you pay for choosing form factor over performance. One always goes over the other.

Edited by pyrates, 17 February 2007 - 07:45 AM.


#51
Vertigo50

Vertigo50

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 78 posts

...(Two-finger right click, and the Mighty mouse, which despite what lots of people say is pretty much good for everything except gaming... and only for freaks who need to differentiate between mouse buttons very very often and at the same time with really annoyingly quick response times for moving, shooter idiots. God, seriously they think gaming's all about them, eesh :P )


So you're saying that only gamers would need a mouse with quick response times and more buttons? That's hilarious.

My mouse has 5 buttons and a scroll wheel. I do everything from Photoshop to audio production, and I use every button on my mouse in almost every application. Why? Because it's more productive. Why should I have to reach all the way over to the keyboard for things that I do over and over when I already have my hand on the mouse? I would probably work an extra two hours a week if I had a one-button or even two-button mouse.

Apple really is impressive, though. Not only can they keep shipping out one-button mice years and years after everyone else has moved on, but they can actually convince their users that this is a good thing! :whistle: You wouldn't want the response times to be too fast, after all. It might confuse someone.

I thought Macs were supposed to be MORE productive.

#52
track09

track09

    InsanelyMac Sage

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 280 posts
Well, the Mighty mouse has two buttons and a clickable scroll whell. But seriously, if they want to limit themselves, they have to offer more options. Apple has a great platform, but won't have me as a buyer until they end the proprietary stuff.

#53
Vertigo50

Vertigo50

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 78 posts
...and before anyone tells me I can use any mouse I want, I KNOW that. That's not the point. The point is that a company who supposedly prides itself on productivity and studying human/computer interaction took about 10 years to figure out that people work better with more than one button on their mouse.

In fact, that had nothing to do with it. The reason Apple didn't use a two-button mouse is because they didn't want to be like IBM, and now it's because they don't want to be like Windows. That's great and all, but that's like not putting seat belts in your car because you don't want to be like every other auto company.

Of course, now Macs run Windows, so things have really turned around, huh?

#54
Frack300

Frack300

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Just Joined
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
I love the idea behind it and as someone who uses a lot of the stuff in Komplete, being able to easily
categorize sounds would be a huge benefit.

#55
Acme Audio

Acme Audio

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Just Joined
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

...and before anyone tells me I can use any mouse I want, I KNOW that. That's not the point. The point is that a company who supposedly prides itself on productivity and studying human/computer interaction took about 10 years to figure out that people work better with more than one button on their mouse.

In fact, that had nothing to do with it. The reason Apple didn't use a two-button mouse is because they didn't want to be like IBM, and now it's because they don't want to be like Windows. That's great and all, but that's like not putting seat belts in your car because you don't want to be like every other auto company.

Of course, now Macs run Windows, so things have really turned around, huh?


Well, my opinion is that they are spearheading a movement to design and manufacture the only machine that you'll need... you can't (legally) run Mac OS X on a PC.

Doesn't it make sense to design machines that will open up doors for PC users to switch over to a machine with a superior OS and FIANALLY convince them that they can leave Winblows behind and not have to change their work flow?

I'm not sure that you have noticed that the Mighty Mouse by default is configured as a one button mouse in System Preferences for the "old school" users such as yourself. So you don't feel that you have to change your work flow either.

This is from someone whom was a LONG TIME M.$. user and has finally seen the light, in fact I'm in the top 100 global ranking in the Apple Sales Training Certified Professionals, AND sales manager for an independant Apple Reseller. This after being a PC technician for over 8 years and claiming for years that I'd never switch to what I refered to as "the dark side"... I've never been so happy with a machine that I'd give away all of my other computers to my family (and tell them I wouldn't even look at them, take your repairs elsewhere!)

... just my two red cents.

#56
Ictinike

Ictinike

    InsanelyMac Geek

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 194 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Victoria, B.C., Canada
  • Interests:Photography, Digital Art, Macs.
Apple is a perfectionist. They want everything perfect. :-)

Form? When people see my Mac Mini, they go "oohhhh ahhh" just like when they see any other Mac. Even the insides are beautiful, so any avid mac user (Who does look inside) is proud to see that their machine was built with the utmost perfectionism.

Function? My 3 1/2 year old Computer still runs the most popular online game today (WoW) and can run the newest most innovative photo editing software on the planet (Photoshop CS3) so.

Tell me you can do that on a $800 Canadian Dell computer thats smaller a Ziplock Container? Haha no.

#57
kj57

kj57

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
Apple does a good job. If you were a gamer, and you go to a LAN party and plop a pile of $41T down, you're gonna get some funny looks. PC makers don't care really what their product looks like, but focus on if it works (sometimes) and if they make a profit. Mostly the profit part. As stated before, Apple is a group of perfectionists. The only problem though, is that their perfect computers cost much more than your average crapola PC. If they were to rethink and lower the costs, but keep the ease of use, than they would have many more people switching to Mac.

#58
pyrates

pyrates

    InsanelyMac Sage

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 479 posts
  • Gender:Male

Apple is a perfectionist. They want everything perfect. :-)

Form? When people see my Mac Mini, they go "oohhhh ahhh" just like when they see any other Mac. Even the insides are beautiful, so any avid mac user (Who does look inside) is proud to see that their machine was built with the utmost perfectionism.

Function? My 3 1/2 year old Computer still runs the most popular online game today (WoW) and can run the newest most innovative photo editing software on the planet (Photoshop CS3) so.

Tell me you can do that on a $800 Canadian Dell computer thats smaller a Ziplock Container? Haha no.


I'm not impressed by the mini. There's no upgrade ability in it at all. Except maybe for the processor, ram, and hard drive. The video card is built in and non-replaceable. Same thing with the sound. It is onboard. It is not meant for gaming. The only reason there is no equivalent PC like the mini is because no one would buy it. I like the ability to upgrade plus get it at a cheaper price too. The looks to me are nothing. How functional it is, is much more important. Sure you may get ooh's and aah's at first, but once someone like me would sit down and use it, I'd find it very limiting.

As for the 3 and a half year old computer running WoW and photoshop cs3, I looked at the minimum requirements for both. And the PC is not more expensive and can still run both, coming from the same era. In fact the only thing you have here is the smaller form factor of the mac. And you pay more for that. Mainly because you need the laptop sized parts for what is essentially supposed to be a desktop computer, which doesn't make sense to me at all. I'd rather pay less, get the same thing, and spend my saved money on other things. You can pay more because it looks better, but that's all you're getting.

And the apple tv is a typical example of apple design and function. That is silent but it can get hot. Even Scott Born, an avid mac user or fan boy, said he popped some popcorn on it. One thing is you never touch the top lid of it when it's been on for a bit. It'll make you move your fingers quickly. And we all know that the more heat a computer like device has, the shorter its life span. Now apple could have made it half an inch higher and added some vents to it to vent off some of the heat from it so it wouldn't be as hot on top. But then it wouldn't look as nice. Guess they expect you to buy a new one when the current one dies because of too much heat.

Besides, didn't apple under clock the ati graphics card in the imac's because they were generating too much heat in the form factor the imac is in? So because of apple's stubbornness to stick to esthetics instead of performance, you get a product that can perform less. Nice. Not me for me.

Well, my opinion is that they are spearheading a movement to design and manufacture the only machine that you'll need... you can't (legally) run Mac OS X on a PC.


But you can try atleast now. And Apple could gain some customers then. But not me.

Doesn't it make sense to design machines that will open up doors for PC users to switch over to a machine with a superior OS and FIANALLY convince them that they can leave Winblows behind and not have to change their work flow?


Superior OS? That's all in the mind of the user. But calling names doesn't help your position. Call it what it is. By the way, I work with linux as well as Windows.

I'm not sure that you have noticed that the Mighty Mouse by default is configured as a one button mouse in System Preferences for the "old school" users such as yourself. So you don't feel that you have to change your work flow either.


Face it, the mighty mouse was poorly designed. Especially when a $15 2 button mouse works better then the mighty mouse, that tells ya something.

This is from someone whom was a LONG TIME M.$. user and has finally seen the light, in fact I'm in the top 100 global ranking in the Apple Sales Training Certified Professionals, AND sales manager for an independant Apple Reseller. This after being a PC technician for over 8 years and claiming for years that I'd never switch to what I refered to as "the dark side"... I've never been so happy with a machine that I'd give away all of my other computers to my family (and tell them I wouldn't even look at them, take your repairs elsewhere!)

... just my two red cents.


You mean you finally decided to switch and you ended up liking it. I like PC's because of their flexibility, that I'm not locked into a particular OS with it. All that good stuff. I get none of that with a Mac.

#59
EFI

EFI

    Photoshop CS3 Elite

  • Retired
  • 629 posts
  • Location:A galaxy far, far away...(Canada)

I'm not impressed by the mini. There's no upgrade ability in it at all. Except maybe for the processor, ram, and hard drive. The video card is built in and non-replaceable. Same thing with the sound. It is onboard. It is not meant for gaming. The only reason there is no equivalent PC like the mini is because no one would buy it.


I can tell you have no knowledge of hardware whatsoever...and your posts continue to substantiate that fact as well. There is no video card on the mini at all. Do you even know what a video card is? The mini has an integrated graphics chip that uses the main system memory to process hardware accelerated tasks. Atleast you got the "onboard sound" part right. :rolleyes:

Finally one more point I'd like to bring up. Now that mac's are using intel cpu's, we now can watch for months to go by before they release a product that uses that new chip. All other PC makers, they have them right away for sale. The mac faithful are use to waiting for stuff like this. The rest of us using PC's don't like to wait and when we see another pc maker using the new intel cpu's already and apple has no mention of it when they will have them ready, they will just buy a PC instead of a Mac.

haha You nailed it. He's trying to compare a highend gaming machine that is over clocked as well against his mac mini with on board graphics. Some people really are delusional. They are in 2 different classes. Plus PC users have been able to buy quad core intel pc's for a while now. Why haven't mac users been able to?



Do you even know your facts? Apple was one of the first ones to use the Dual core intel processors back in begenning of 2006...only later did the majority of the PC manufacturers catch up..like Dell, HP, Toshiba, Sony, etc. And PC users have been able to buy quad cores for a while now?Well Mac users have the ability to buy Dual Intel Xeon Octa-Core processors running at blazing 3Ghz now (just incase you never got the umph, thats 8 cores)...and guess what...only Apple has that deal. No other computer maker out there right now has 8-core processors (clovertown) avaliable to them. So now let me ask you this...why haven't diehard PC users been able to? :(

Besides, didn't apple under clock the ati graphics card in the imac's because they were generating too much heat in the form factor the imac is in? So because of apple's stubbornness to stick to esthetics instead of performance, you get a product that can perform less. Nice. Not me for me.


Umm...your knoledge is a bit primitive there. :rolleyes: . Apple underclocked the video cards on the Core Duos...becasue yes they were generating too much heat...but with the Newer Core 2 Duos...Apple clocked the video cards back to normal speeds because the processors were more efficient, and generated less heat, and this hapened with both the iMacs AND the Macbook Pro's. And since now the CD line is discontinued...all of Apple's computer have normal clocked cards.

Even Scott Born, an avid mac user or fan boy, said he popped some popcorn on it


And I would guess you believe in flying pigs as well right? Are you really that gullable? :blink:

You mean you finally decided to switch and you ended up liking it. I like PC's because of their flexibility, that I'm not locked into a particular OS with it. All that good stuff. I get none of that with a Mac.


Sigh...another false statement. Aparently you've never heard of Bootcamp, which allows you to run Windows XP, Vista, and Linux if you want. Honestly, do some research before you post garbage like that. You make yourself look dumb...especially when everyone else knows what they are talking about.

#60
BarryBar

BarryBar

    InsanelyMac Geek

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 118 posts
Apple does a very bad job concerning function and that is because the company is still arrogant and a hardware monopolist. They always do what they want and not what the customers want. Of course I love the Mac OS but basically nowadays I would like to use the computer also for gaming.
What do we see Apple brings out an 8core Mac Pro but where are the new grahic options. Like the new geforce 8 series for instance. No, Apple still has a bunch of old EFI Graphics card which they want to sell. I say keep them!

What is the problem with at least allowing the users to get video cards from other vendors. If Apple would change their ways I would certainly buy a Mac Pro because it is a fast machine and a technically well designed. But now I am waiting for a better Mac Pro and annoyed.

If Leopard comes out for hackintosh then I am not surprised if people built there own again. Also the case of the Mac Pro is so non functional. Cooler Master for instance has great looking cases which give so much room for all your harddisks and drives. So again why are delivered to Apple's arrogance and non functional design.

Yes I admit I am an Apple hater and lover.

Another example is the Apple TV. Everybody uses Divx and Xvid files. And again why not offer that Divx/ Xvid play functionality. No, you have to get the harddisk out and install it yourself. Or the video recorder function, why not. Restictions I hate them and I think they comes from Steve. That is because Steve does not believe in computer in combination with TV he rather would like to see us buy movies via iTunes offcourse. Apple can keep Apple TV where I am concerned.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

© 2014 InsanelyMac  |   News  |   Forum  |   Downloads  |   OSx86 Wiki  |   Mac Netbook  |   PHP hosting by CatN  |   Designed by Ed Gain  |   Logo by irfan  |   Privacy Policy