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The OSx86 Community - Past, Present and Future

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#1
mnfesq

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I wanted to start a thread where we could discuss our views about the changes in the OSx86 Community over the years and where it seems to be heading.  Now I want to preface things by saying that I am one of those old guys who resists change and likes things as I remember them to be.  I recognize that, if left to me, this community would probably become stagnant because changes in technology are typically fast and furious and, if our past is any indication, there have been huge strides in our ability to utilize and expand upon the OS X operating system.

 

Now, I am no developer nor tech wiz - I am a lawyer who likes to mess with computers in my spare time.  I used to really enjoy doing crossword puzzles and jigsaw puzzles and the more complicated and difficult they were, the more I liked them.  But when I got good at those and finished them, all I had to show for it was a filled-out crossword puzzle or picture from a completed jigsaw puzzle.  I remember building my first computer in the very early 1990s - it was a pentium 75 with 500 kb of ram and 750 mb hard drive.  There were so many  jumpers and nothing was easy.  But when I was done, I had a working computer. When I belatedly discovered that there were people installing OS X on PC computers, I was intrigued because it again seemed like a very complicated process but, like building computers, when I was done, I would have a computer unlike any the people I know had ever seen.  (I say belatedly because I started out installing 10.5.1 with a distro.)  I had 10.5.8 running on my AMD desktop computer but decided that my future with OSx86 would be laptops.  I first got Leopard running on a Dell Inspiron 6000.  Then, I got Snow Leopard running on a Dell Inspiron 1720.  Lion also ran great on that laptop.  Then came ML and my X3100 graphics couldn't handle 64-bit drivers.  That prompted me to buy my current HP Envy 17t-3200.  

 

Over the years, I learned to apply various fixes to my DSDT.  I never used a patching app, I always applied the fixes by copying and pasting them into my DSDT.  When the fixes came in patching format, I had to change the format so that I could apply it manually and without any patcher.  Eventually, I got to the point where I can install a new OS X operating system without any modified kexts.  I still need a ps2 kext, an ethernet kext, the generic brightness kext and I use voodoohda instead of applehda so that I can get my subwoofer to work.  But my days of rolling back to earlier versions of Apple kexts are behind me.

 

In sum, what was once a complicated puzzle for me, yielding a seldom-seen phenomenon, OS X on a PC computer, is now more like making instant coffee.  Teenagers who know little about computers and have no desire to learn about them can install OS X using Myhack, Pandora, and Tonymacx86's beast app.  I don't think it's snobby to want people to be knowledgeable about OSx86 in order to have a working Hackintosh.  I personally support the quizzes we have here to limit posts by newbies.  I personally did not learn about this process by asking questions. I learned by reading others'  experiences and experimenting on my own.

 

Where do you think we are heading in terms of mass-use of OS X installers?  Do you think Apple cares and may do something about it? Do you welcome the influx of a new generation of OS X users who sometimes seem to take for granted that OS X can run on a PC? I, personally, am still amazed at the opportunities that were made possible by the FakeSMC.kext.  Every time I see DSMOS has arrived, I can't help but grin a little.

 

Look, it may be that, just like every other crossword puzzle and jigsaw puzzle I encounter, I will finish with this and have to find a new challenge.  I just didn't think it would happen so quickly.  What do you think?



#2
chris1111

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For my part I respect the old  OSx86 mentality,and the new one I always made ​​my  installations by myself, (Vanilla Installation)  but now for couple years I give myself another challenge to  understand scripting and Packaging. I can confirm you that,its a very strong emotion! After having managed to create my own installer for the first time and every time ; I feel great pride of that. It gives me the taste to do more and innovate. Vanilla Installation is very easy comparing create Installer ! Thats why I have a big respect to developer , coder and Programmer . When you create a tools and people to succeed with, this is very Satisfying. 


#3
Alessandro17

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I don't think that Apple cares and may do something about it. We have been here for almost 9 years. We have explained in other topics the (many) reasons why Apple will probably leave us alone.

There is no "new generation of OS X users who sometimes seem to take for granted that OS X can run on a PC", this kind of discussion has been going on for years.

And let's not forget that we all started with a distro.



#4
joe75

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There will always be noobs and people that want something for nothing.. People come and go in this community and the ones that stick around usually end up educating themselves about hardware and Mac OS. Some of you don't know but when OSX86 started we couldn't even boot without a patched kernel, boot loader or kexts. We've come a long way and most people take it for granted that a hackintosh should just work like a mac does.

 

I think the future will bring much of the same. I don't see Apple trying to stop hackintoshes or making ANY major changes, and even if they do maybe we will finally have something to hack once again..



#5
mnfesq

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I think the future will bring much of the same. I don't see Apple trying to stop hackintoshes or making ANY major changes, and even if they do maybe we will finally have something to hack once again..

 

I have been wondering whether Apple might want to move away from Intel processors and move back to something more proprietary.  I tried to sell my old laptop on EBay and I listed it as being dual-boot Win7 and OS X.  Apple complained and EBay cancelled my listing.  Nothing further happened after that viz. Apple.  However, they are not asleep at the wheel, and the easier it is to install OS X on a PC, the more it may care.  After all, it's model is to get people to buy their hardware by making their software work only on their hardware.  I am not as convinced as Alessandro17 that Apple will never do anything about hackintoshes, particularly if the trends in OSx86 continue.



#6
Alessandro17

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I didn't say "never", but in 9 years we have basically been left alone.



#7
PookyMacMan

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I tried to sell my old laptop on EBay and I listed it as being dual-boot Win7 and OS X. 

That's the issue. The reason Apple cared is because you're selling the machine. That's why Apple shut down Psystar. If you make a machine and put OS X on it, Apple won't throw a fit, but if you make money off of an unauthorized machine then Apple does something about it.



#8
mnfesq

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That's the issue. The reason Apple cared is because you're selling the machine. That's why Apple shut down Psystar. If you make a machine and put OS X on it, Apple won't throw a fit, but if you make money off of an unauthorized machine then Apple does something about it.

 

Yeah, I get that.  I just wanted to sell the laptop and have learned that, on eBay, you need to fully disclose the details about what you are selling.  I couldn't imagine trashing the Lion installation I had on it but I wasn't selling the laptop for more money because it had Lion on it.  I ultimately ended up giving the laptop to my sister.  I changed the drive it boots from in the BIOS so she has a Win 7 laptop and has no idea that there is another hard drive in that laptop with Lion on it.  Maybe someday, someone will discover that.  I hope so.



#9
mac09hack

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I have heard that Apple is trying to "control" when their operating systems goes onto a "foreign" computer. Just try to buy an operating system with a digital download from the App Store. I did and they sold me a license for Mountain Lion but without a real Mac computer you can't download it. My hack is listed and an Apple macintosh 4,1 but the App Store seems to be able to recognize a real Mac for a Hack.

Couldn't download the "free" Mavericks OS either.

I have hear that usng Clover boot loader would make the PC look more like a Macintosh but I have not had great experience using Clover yet.

Another issue is that Apple is now requiring the Kexts for Mavericks be "signed"? For whatever that means., I fear Apple is putting pressure on the OS86X community.



#10
iFIRE

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Apple is putting pressure on the OS86X community?  :no:    :P  Tool to remove Apple Code Signatures from binaries - Developers Corner - InsanelyMac Forum



#11
mnfesq

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Apple is putting pressure on the OS86X community?  :no:    :P  Tool to remove Apple Code Signatures from binaries - Developers Corner - InsanelyMac Forum

 

Well, it's true that you can remove a code signature once it is added to the binaries but the fact that kexts need to be signed is still a legitimate cause for minor concern.  I noticed that Slice used his developer's signature for the VoodooHDA.kext, version 2.8.5.  Still, with kext injection in Clover, the code requirement is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.  For now, at least, the mouse is much quicker than the cat.



#12
Gringo Vermelho

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My hack is listed and an Apple macintosh 4,1 but the App Store seems to be able to recognize a real Mac for a Hack.

Couldn't download the "free" Mavericks OS either.

 

All that means is that your Hackintosh isn't done. I bought Lion and Mountain Lion on the App Store on separate Hackintoshes. If you have compatible hardware and everything is set up correctly you can use the App Store and iTunes just the same as everybody else, in fact, Apple will gladly take your money. It would be bad business for them to actively block Hackintoshes, and if they wanted to do that they could have done it a long time ago.

 

Mavericks is free now - and no serious measures that actively prevent us from running OS X have been implemented. To me that means they wants us to use it. Of course they can't come out and say that because they can never publicly acknowledge us, for reasons (obvious ones) that have already been discussed in this topic.

 

The Hackintosh community is Apple's secret love affair. We're their late-night on-a-business-trip secret booty call. And it will stay that way.



#13
mnfesq

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The term "compatible hardware" should be in quotes.  It's gotten to the point that even incompatible hardware can be made compatible through DSDT edits.  We have come such a long way in that regard.  Kudos to the developers, and my utmost appreciation.



#14
Gringo Vermelho

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That's not an accurate assumption. DSDT can't drive hardware, it only describes (that's the second D in DSDT) your hardware to the OS.

 

If there is no driver for your hardware then no amount of DSDT editing will ever make it compatible.

 

DSDT editing is for improving the compatibility of already working/supported hardware, by "describing" it the way that OS X wants to see it.



#15
frankiee

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I think the future will bring much of the same. I don't see Apple trying to stop hackintoshes or making ANY major changes, and even if they do maybe we will finally have something to hack once again..

 

That's what I think. Especially the fact that Apple actually whitelisted kexts like FakeSMC shows clearly that they are aware of the situation, and by whitelisting they make it actually easier, not harder for us - at least for now. And also Nvidia seems to be quite keen on making almost all of their recent cards running OOTB under OS X - be it a real mac or not. I think they know very well that this will also increase their sales.

 

Also I think that the hackintosh community is simply not big enough so that Apple will bother with it, and imho will never grow over a certain amount, bc it is - at least guessing from my own experience - still way harder to get a perfect hack running, than just buying a mac. Not too hard to make OS X boot up somehow, that's right - but then the devil is in the details, and to get to the point where DSDT editing "is like making coffee" - well imho there is quite a learning curve to master first in order to get to this point. And I think a lot of the typical Apple target audience simply does not ever want to bother with such things.

 

Therefore I would be REALLY curious how many OS X users are running a hack vs a real mac. But I would really wonder if that were more than, let's say 2-3%.

 

Furthermore, I think Apple will simply do better with people using hacks than some other OS. One reason is that even Hackintoshes are still somewhat connected to the Apple Eco System (using iCloud or the App Store for example), so there still is some money to be made for Apple, which otherwise would be lost. Simply bc a lot of these people won't buy a "real" mac if there weren't the opportunity for hacking. Also I can imagine that quite some people who started with a hack opt for a "real" mac later on, and - like in my case - using a hack can even stop s.o. from defecting to Windows completely, bc Apple simply has a limited offering, for example no more "classic" Desktop machines to buy, even if I want to. Last but not least, also quite a lot of "Hackintoshers" use "real" Apple Devices beneath their Hacks, like iPhones, iPads or Apple Laptops.

 

And my personal observation about the community itself:

 

- sometimes a bit hard for a "newbie" to get some traction - not everyone is helpful, some people are simply misleading / misguiding (surely with good intentions in many cases, but still ...) and some people at least appear(!) as outright arrogant and "elitist".

- on the other hand, I can also partly understand this, bc some "newbies" are expecting to get all their work done by someone else, and do not bother to learn for themselves, and that is imho still necessary

- the battle between different parts of the "Hackontosh community" seems - at least partially - childish and unnecessary (without blaming anyone in particular!!!)

 

That said, a BIG THANK YOU to all who made this possible, and I hope for a long, thriving and constructive future of the OSX86 community as a whole. Keep up the good work!

 

 

.... so yeah, just my 2c ;)



#16
iFIRE

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the problem is that a Real Mac not have  nothing to patch  :P  and this not have any emotion  :yes:  a hackintosh is 95% read  the guides, testing kexts and patchs, boot loaders, etc.. an the other 5% is hardware compatibility :) 

 

and like you said   "I can also partly understand this, bc some "newbies" are expecting to get all their work done by someone else, and do not bother to learn for themselves",     to theses one -  Windows  :lol: 



#17
terramir

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You know, I believe eventually Apple will realize the untapped market potential. I mean there could be dual pricing A little modification to DSMOS and it could attempt to detect a small usb hub/ encryption device, this way you keep your USB3/USB2 port and well it would be available online/ the apple store. with cooperation of the Hackentosh/OSX community it could have a unique key sold either one or family pack (3 or 5) and it would allow you, A. legally install OSX, B use secure virtual memory and hibernation because your encryption Key(s) are unique. cables could be included in the box for desktop internal installs

Of course there would be a disclaimer about compatible Hardware, but all they would have to do is open up and add a few drivers here and there and compatibility would greatly improve. Since what we do is open source, they would be able to borrow from us freely ;). this could actually increase revenue for apple by quite a bit, and with amd/ via/ atom kernels they could give Bill's company a run for it's money. The attraction to buy a real mac, would still be there especially the iMac, mini and laptops just because of style, and well stability. 

But let's say it this way Apple could make a killing and those key's would take less than 2 bucks each to produce. and well charge let's say $69 (like the magic mouse) for non apple hardware 150 in the 3 or 5 pack depending on how generous they feel.

This would be very simply implemented and well I for one would support apple on this. Upgrades (i.e. compatible with OSX 10.10 and so on could be flashed to the chip from OSX after a small upgrade fee. )

 

On another note, Yeah I would love to learn especially how to patch apple HDA VoodooHDA is not a better solution period. But the tutorials sadly assume knowledge not everyone has, or are utterly incomplete. My laptop, for example has a particular configuration, sad thing is I can't even use the linux dumps cause in linux only one speaker works for some reason so the graphs are off, I need to use the windowz 7 codec but even the codec convertor tools have disappeared. And yes I would like to learn how to edit my dsdt as well as the other tables especially to add hardware like my wifi card bluetooth and one of those intel dual Lan things (this would be for my desktop) and other things. But all in good time. 

Finding well written tutorials would help us increase the active participation in the community because then people could learn;)

terramir



#18
Gringo Vermelho

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Steve Jobs is spinning in his grave. Dream on.



#19
terramir

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Yeah that's the thing with Jobs gone, the strong direction is gone, and shareholders need to be satisfied.

 

Money talks, and in this case it's a lot of money, because surprisingly some peeps say were in the minority, but I as a computer tech hear so many peeps having themselves dual boot hacks built, mostly based on intel hardware. it's getting more main stream than peeps might think, especially since the sandy bridge processors. Some peeps and that's not me, are starting to make a living with it on the down low.

You see peeps in the various forums stuck at a certain update release cause there afraid to update.

Cause they dunno what there doing at all, cause they didn't even install it.

terramir 



#20
PookyMacMan

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Also I think that the hackintosh community is simply not big enough so that Apple will bother with it, and imho will never grow over a certain amount, bc it is - at least guessing from my own experience - still way harder to get a perfect hack running, than just buying a mac. Not too hard to make OS X boot up somehow, that's right - but then the devil is in the details, and to get to the point where DSDT editing "is like making coffee" - well imho there is quite a learning curve to master first in order to get to this point. And I think a lot of the typical Apple target audience simply does not ever want to bother with such things.

 

Therefore I would be REALLY curious how many OS X users are running a hack vs a real mac. But I would really wonder if that were more than, let's say 2-3%.

It's not big enough nor a real threat. Installing OS X breaks the EULA, which is not legally enforceable in all countries. And even in those countries where one could be prosecuted, it is a "mere" civil offense and not worth Apple's time or money.

 

And I would personally think hack users would probably be <=1% of all OS X users. But I haven't polled everyone. :P

 

- sometimes a bit hard for a "newbie" to get some traction - not everyone is helpful, some people are simply misleading / misguiding (surely with good intentions in many cases, but still ...) and some people at least appear(!) as outright arrogant and "elitist".

- on the other hand, I can also partly understand this, bc some "newbies" are expecting to get all their work done by someone else, and do not bother to learn for themselves, and that is imho still necessary

- the battle between different parts of the "Hackontosh community" seems - at least partially - childish and unnecessary (without blaming anyone in particular!!!)

Just as a disclaimer (in case anyone takes offense), I speak the following for myself, and not on behalf of the staff of this forum.

 

1. This is unfortunately true. In all honesty it happens on a lot of tech communities, hackintosh or not. Sometimes it is very difficult for those with a lot of knowledge to condescend to a newbie's level. I personally enjoy helping all those who earnestly seek help and accept the help and advice given. If all they do is combat what they are told then helping isn't much fun. Which leads into...

2. This is what ticks off the "experts" of any tech community, the entitled spoon-fed newbies. And especially in the case of InsanelyMac, we are not anyone's support desk. Nor does anyone have any "rights" to demand or bribe help from anyone here. And the entire hackintosh movement was not for the purpose of getting a cheap Mac. In fact typically the more compatible hardware can be as expensive as Mac components (I'm not wanting to start a Mac vs. hack debate here). The purpose was to have fun hacking and learning about computer science. In my personal experience, my adventure creating a hackintosh allowed me to learn so much about Macs (and eventually Windows, in the process of dual-booting and compatibility and the rest) that I am able to offer tech support to anyone (even occasionally my IT tech brother if he's stuck on something, typically Mac-related problems), and I am now employed in a part-time tech support position. So I have had a great experience in that regard.

3. I agree. The conflict is caused by the same thing that causes all other conflicts: selfishness and misunderstandings. It is most sad, indeed.







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