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#41
Gaber

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Im a 14 year old kid, Im not going to pay for Photoshop/Dreamweaver/Flash/etc. Its simply dumb. I do however, plan on purchasing legal copies once I am older/can afford the, . There is no other way for to get them, and all the other "lite" versions and stuff like that suck, because you can't use the core things needed in the program. I know its wrong, and I do it. If I could afford it, I'd buy it. When I can afford it, I WILL buy it, most definatley. Movies and TV Shows- I download them a lot, but only movies in theatres that I have seen, and am sure I am going to buy, Same with TV shows, If I miss an episode, I'll download. And if its something I download, its something I want to buy, so I force my self the delete the stuff once it comes out so that I HAVE to buy it.

#42
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Not all companies support DRM. I read somewhere that even big companies like Microsoft are starting to get more cautious about implementing it everywhere.

And I know quite a few non-techicians who are really upset about the music they bought which can not be burnt to CD etc.


Yeah... I strongly agree. DRM is just another layer of dumbass beuracracy in the music industry.

;)

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#43
Metrogirl

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... I know its wrong, and I do it. If I could afford it, I'd buy it. When I can afford it, I WILL buy it, most definatley. ...


That's a reasonable statement, and I hope that when the day comes that you can afford it, you will buy it. The problem is that it may prove difficult to justify buying something that you probably could afford but is already working fine on your system - when the mortgage needs paying, the baby is hungry and your car needs new brakes. Then you may be tempted to say "If I could afford it, but I can't right now..."

There was an interesting article this week in the NY Times on spy software and snooping on your kids, spouse and so on, and it touches on ethics in a way relevant to this thread.
Quoting from that text:

"For this latest generation, there's an obscure line between lawful
behavior and ethical behavior," Mr. Hong said.

Jan Goldman, who teaches ethics and intelligence at the Joint Military
Intelligence College in Washington, where real spies are trained, said
many people approach spying with 'applied situational ethics' - they
change the meaning of right and wrong to suit their advantage.

"And that's not ethical," he said. "When you're confronted with
something else that you feel is a greater priority, then you are able to
trump your ethics."


#44
trav1085

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Software piracy is very simple to stop, just make it opensource and/or free!

There is many money in computer hardware, computers and stuff that you can't copy and pirate! There's money is webhosting and bandwidth, so why can't all software AND operating systems's be free?

Companies will save a lot of money if it was free, because there wouldn't be very expensive law suits and stuff like Microsoft sueing and people sueing Microsoft because they have some things that they aren't sussposed to use in vista, if it was opensource Windows and Mac would not compete, they could be written to have the same features and seucrity as eachother.

Yes, I don't know if anyone pays for Photoshop not to mention CS2! I don't know who really buys much software anymore either.

So it's the companies charing money for it, they need to pay their programmers but open source is volunteer and free!

I agree with Gaber, I would pay for software if I could afford it, but not many people can dish out 300 bucks for photoshop.

#45
rogabean

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I would disagree. There is something to be said for the closed source and non free models as well.

And plenty of people pay for Photoshop and the like, else the companies would have long went out of business.

Going open source and charging for support only would actually hurt companies like Adobe.

MS could in fact go to a free (not open source) home user edition (read gimped) and only charge for support, oems and VLKs and still be very profitable. But the market has shown them that they have no need to do so. Unless that changes there is no need.

#46
magic0200

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I'd just like to add one area in this topic that I feel should be discussed. Piracy remains to be a grey area in law where clearly even the ones in charge have no true idea where to stand on the matter in whole. This is exemplified by the differences in laws within states, countries, and global unions alike. The battle right now between a consumer's rights and the companie's control is by far the reason this situation is growing with extreme frustration and resentment towards each side. This is what has been discussed and I would like to add something different.

Now as for a new position from a business mind, let us take Apple and Microsoft into consideration. If you have followed Microsoft and their position on piracy, the company attacks corporations or larger interests when piracy is involved. With the amount of capital needed to sue someone, it's in their best interest to remain in this spectrum of illegal action. However, what about the everyday user....

Microsoft gained a large percentage of the market from Piracy as well. This does not just include countries around the world (unable to find this product originally) but also here at home. Now being Microsoft you can say you own XX% of the market, however how much of that is actually piracy? What you find in piracy is that with time it becomes a marketing position for the company and if countered correctly can cause increased market growth and capital. Simply put, anyone in piracy knows that even though you may have a version of the product, it's not always the exact thing. If the pirate continually uses the product and enjoys it, usually they will proceed with purchasing the real product and supporting the company (just like people with osx86 boxes). This has been a proven fact with piracy with the majority, which leaves only a small percentage that will remain pirates no matter what happens with a product.

Probably the best example would be the Xbox. The company when in fear of piracy only looked to protect online gaming from cheating. The fact that the machine was hacked really did not receive a large backlash with security updates. Many speculate this to be a safety precaution for Microsoft aiming their profits towards another sub-product of gaming: Online gaming. Without going too deep on this, we have all seen just how big Xbox Live is now.

With a little help from piracy (just a little), the machine quickly grew in market share and furthermore the company based a large collection of 360 features upon homebrew applications. This was even documented where Bill and other top heads would hack an xbox and view all the features to study the market. The key picture is that through piracy the company was able to grasp a full understanding of what a gamer would want in their machine. And in return gamers are pleasantly surprised so far with the 360.

With the position of Apple, this is where I find OSX86 to be a ground level change in the rest of Apple's future. Eventually, osx86 may become one of two things. First, Apple may finally release OSX to all PC's and fight Microsoft (I doubt it but I would love to see it). What people don't understand sometimes is the looking glass effect where Apple is using this forum and it's creators as two pieces of information. First and foremost, the company (just like the xbox homebrew) is being viewed and studied with their work on OSX and our "debugging" of the system with new CPUs, Vid Cards, MBoards...etc.

The amount of man hours spent on this site is actually helping Apple if they were planning on entering the PC market with a full spectrum of hardware specs.

Also, you will find that Apple FINALLY has a community that they were unable to achieve before... the modders. Unlike PC, Apple really could not afford to have PC modders and even upgrading was brought to a lower control with their product. However now Apple has found that they have gained a new market of die hard PC users that have built machines specifically to test out the limits of OSX. Not to mention it also shows market information on how more intelligent PC users are affected by switching over to Mac.


The other option with this situation is that the piracy will increase sales of Apple products. This is just created through patience and the lack of support released by the company. In time people will not want to patch and wait for issues to be resolved by one forum member. We all saw how JaS became overwhelmed by the greed and persistant annoyance of other users.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I am not held by these thoughts and do not enjoy getting into large heated debates. I only tend to play the "what if" card and throw a view or two from the business side of this disucssion.


I would like to thank everyone on this site for their help and hard work. Respect for your work never really shows up on this site and at least for me you will always know that I admire your talent and determination. Oh yea, go easy on me as I do not have a spell check handy.

Thanks again!



PS. I am still in need of a demonoid invite if anyone can PM me one. TIA

#47
erpupone

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software piracy is certainly a crime and it's certainly a theft...there's no saying here, like photocopying a book is theft so is copying a program
the real thing here is that stealing money from somebody's pocket in our culture is seen as theft, immoral more than illegal and we've been told so since childhood, so most of us avoid doing that...but nobody has ever been said that software piracy is theft, our morals have been conceived way before software, so nobody could teach you not to download Windows off eMule...
and what's more, stealing a wallet you're stealing to some well determined individual, but when copying Windows your crime goes against an unknown and foggy Mr. Gates somewhere in the US whom you'll never ever meet in your life...
I guess that's what makes software piracy different from other forms of theft

#48
unstatusthequo

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Recent News:

http://www.chinadail...tent_517377.htm

13 *MILLION* pirated discs seized and destroyed. Imaging that 100 CD-R spool in your head... 13 THOUSAND of those... yeah...

My favorite line: "If the government gets rid of pirated products and we provide cheaper legitimate ones, the future market will become more promising," said Chen."

Earlier in the article, some discs were sold for $1.25 US. So, CS2 for $1.25 scam or $800 retail... there's a LONG way to go to make that maybe pirate into a legit buyer...

#49
TheMadJester

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I pirate software because I simply can't afford half of the stuff out there. If it's a single person who's asking for something like $5 for their handy utility, I've got no problem paying for it.
Companies claim that when people pirate their software they're losing money, because they reason that those people would have otherwise bought the software. The reality is this simply isn't true. People don't pirate Photoshop so they don't have to buy it, they pirate it because they can't buy it. People just don't have the cash lying around to put down $700. I do, however, have a problem with people pirating just to be cheap, assuming that they can afford the software.
I should note that I'm against stealing. However, my definition of stealing doesn't include software piracy, because of my above reasons. I see stealing as taking from one party and giving to another. People see this as wrong because it's taking from the first party; they no longer have it. This isn't the case with software piracy--the first party still keeps the original, but the second party gets it as well. And, again, they're HARDLY losing potential sales, as I said.
If you could magically clone your brand new car and give one to your best friend, wouldn't everybody do it?


I agree with this guy, I myself Pirate because I connot afford - I'm a student. If I continue pirating when im done, that will be a bad habit.

My personnal vision of software would be that you could go to Futureshop, Cirtcuit City, london drugs, EBGames or wereever, and buy photo shop and other programs for 5-10 and OS for around 2-50 dollars.

Why? Because if it was done that way, I would go to town once a month and load up, I would spend 25 dollars and get those 4-5 programs just because its not 250 + dollars (im thinking canadian money here)

I wouldnt be alone, I know most you you here feel guilty about it and do it too, to ease our guilt many of us would swng by the software store and pick up a few on the way home from work. The truth is, if it takes 5 +hours to DL MAC OS x off bittorrent (... purely hypothetical...). I would have no qualms about picking it up for a reasonable price when I happened to be pasing a store that sold it.

Photoshop is much the same way. Its worth hundreds of dollars. as a student I would pay 5-10 dollars to play around with it. there is no way in a million years I would pay over 100.

#50
iawval

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"I Pirate because I cannot afford" I cannot afford aFerrari, so should I steal it?
A total different thing is to make changes to software I have bought, the agreements I have to sign when for istance I buy Os/x DO violate the most basical and common sense civil rights on property. I pay a lot a Euros for an OS and than I cannot tamper with It? what about if mercedes wil make you sign an agreement to park your car only in some places they like before selling it? Anyway all this stuff has absolutly NOTHING to do with ethics and moral. Big software houses DO NOT rely on ethics and moral, the rely on Laws and tribunals and they have the power and money to have goverments make the laws they like. How can anyone defend his civil rights on property against microsoft or apple or IBM when they can sue you at costs you'll never be able to match?

#51
osxgus

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IMHO: Please note that this is for software that coses $1000+, this does not apply for homesoft like games & photoshop elements type s-ware.

Pirate software is ok when it's:
- for learning purposes
- for testing purposes (if it works for what i need it for, i'll buy it, not in all cases can you use all functions of trailware.. )
- for personal purposes (non commercial) .

Pirate software is NOT ok when:
- Commercial purposes (soft used in businesses)
- If any kind of money is made from the use of the software (using dreamweaver to make semi-pro websites for your clients in your hobbytime [unless you can use their license ofcourse.. ]).

And wtf, if you can afford a HD studiocam, and hobbyfilm etc then you probably have enuff ca$h to spend a little on the plugins and the software like FCP.. so DO IT ;-)

:D
when it comes to music and films. do you go to concerts to see bands that you listen to / like ? do you go to the cinema once in a while? then i have no problems with you leeching mp3s /xvids /hd content as much as you like.

if there was a site where i could support the bands i like directly, with no money going to the record companies i would use it.

cheers!
:blink:
osxG

#52
Alessandro17

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And wtf, if you can afford a HD studiocam, and hobbyfilm etc then you probably have enuff ca$h to spend a little on the plugins and the software like FCP.. so DO IT ;-)


It isn't exactly the same. For centuries we have always accepted that we must pay for material objects.

But with software the matter is much more controversial. Originally nobody had to pay for it. It was freely shared between developers/users.

It was mainly Microsoft and Bill Gates who changed that.

And still nowadays there is probably more open source and free software than commercial and proprietary.

Even Apple sells you a computer with the OS and other software included.

You can use a computer without ever spending a cent on software and yet be perfectly legal. If you don't believe me, imagine dual booting between OS X with plenty of free software and Linux.

My hope is that we can go back to the past, when software was a free commodity.

#53
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What I do for music:

If it is a song I really love and want NO DRM on it, I download it with Rhapsody and use FairUse4WM. If it is a song I would like to see the artist get some profit from, I buy it in iTunes.

As for Software/OSes... I am just a teenager, I can't buy stuff I want to learn from, so I can have experience from later on in life when I can afford it and buy it. That way I will know what I am doing and it's worth it to me to spend the money.

-This is my view,
Neospy.

#54
Panda200x

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I can explain this...
:) :2cents: :2cents: :2cents:
Use :dev: :)
Screw the :police:
Children cant afford Final Cut Pro or the Adobe Creative studio...
It all comes down to greed.
Good idea Neo! :D

#55
Suhail

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Office Costs 100. Now you expect a 14 year old Boy to fork over that kinda money
Don't see it Happening

#56
non sequitur

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i wouldnt buy MS office if it was a dime for a dozen licenses.

i dont know, i dont pirateanything. if theres something i need to use, i use OSS. Gimp, handbrake, neooffice, bitpim, camino, adium. i dont feel right pirating something. the only thing i use gnutella for is redownloading songs i have already bought in iTunes so i can put them on my phone as ringtones. i feel much better when there is nothing to worry about.

#57
Overdriven

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I love open source completely, but the fact that most apps for video editing and etc. don't get the quality assurance that comes from an app developed by lets say Adobe, or Apple. I love what they make because it makes sense and won't have more of a chance breaking on me.

-Neospy
(P.S. My Office 2k3 License is from a parent that works at a university :D)

#58
jonz14

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Well as it has been said before, I am 15 and if you think I am gonna pay $800 for Photoshop then you are a nutcase, I do use it on a regular basis but I haven't gotten a cent for using it. I just play around and make stuff for people that ask.

Sorry Adobe, I pirate your software, and if it makes you feel any better I don't do it to make money, just to play around when I have nothing else to do. I also don't distribute it out to anybody else. Since i'm only 15 it's not even legal for me to have a job so how would I come up with that kind of money? Sorry.

If I ever had a career in graphic design I would most likely pay for Photoshop unless I had no money, and as I got money I would eventually buy it.

I also think that software piracy could easily be stopped and if a company wanted to they could easily make their software unpirateable (or at least make it harder to crack) but of course they don't now do they?

The only source of income I have now is people that give me money for my birthday ect. All of that money has been dumped into my car (mainly paint, and a body kit) and really Adobe, you most definately want me to have a nice car right?

P.S. After looking at Neo's post #53 I signed up for a free 15 day trial to the Urge music service from Microsoft, then I downloaded as much as I could, then I removed the DRMs. Sorry Microshaft.

O ya I then reformated and did it again.

#59
jgrimes80

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I love how this thread argues the legitimacy of using something (software) without purchasing legitimate rights to use it.

Anyone else see the irony?

#60
A Nonny Moose

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There is a definite irony. People want to use MS Office. Show them OpenOffice (which has probably 90% of the MS features) and they refuse to use it. Why? Because they feel like they absolutely need MS Office and will steal it if they can't afford it.

Same thing with Final Cut. A LOT of good things can be done with iMovie, which is only $79 and has an extensive plugin network (many of which cost additional $$$, but I digress here). NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, they want Final Cut...

People see the less expensive things as inferior (simply based on the price alone) and so don't even think of them as options. This fundamental thinking needs to change before software stealing even begins to slow down.

Let's not even go into games, which are mondo cheap compared to something like Office and are still stolen. Then they complain because their stolen game can't connect to the online arena. Or into music stealing, I MEAN SHARING...

Let's face it. Consumers just can't be trusted anymore.





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