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#21
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I don't know... this all seems too flakey to me. There are so many ways to violate licence agreements it's not even funny. I, for one, am for free enterprise. However, it seems that nobody puts themselves into the shoes of the programmers, though. Just think, how are the programmers going to make a living if they don't get paid for their work?

:compress:

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#22
jgrimes80

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Here's how I put it...

1. Music- Don't care

I use iTunes though... I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

2. Games- Don't care

I do hope people realize the potential consequences of massive piracy which include no updates, no incentive to make another...

3. As a businessman, I will never support the piracy of industrial software for profit. However, I think it's perfectly acceptable to acquire these softwares (be it, Adobe, UGS, Logic Pro) with strict intentions to learn. In these fields, I think it's VERY safe to say that consumer-end market is minimal to begin with.

I think anyone in a computer based industry is familiar with the demands that candidates be familiar with software being used. Unfortunately, in here we use VERY little software worth acquiring a license for personal use.

Just to give an idea:
My marketer(s) use the entire Adobe suite, plus Final Cut/Keynote.
My engineer(s) use Pro/E Wildfire 3.0 or UGS NX4
My PCB designer(s) use Cadence plus some others...

Not exactly things you can go to the store and get......

#23
Arez

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For me I stand buy the try before you buy method, for the most part. For the last three years I've been working alongside a computer genius(well really an everything genius) but anyways, my line of work is in Technical Design(Theatre, Concerts, TV, etc..) and I'm a huge computer geek. So naturally there are some applications that are industry standard. Specifically, Cast's WYSIWYG, Vectorworks, AutoCAD. But I'm also a composer, journalist, and photographer. So I use CS2 and Finale. And being an ex-pc user(though I do dual boot alot still) I had to have microsoft office.

The first piece of software I ever pirated was Vectorworks 9, which was a few years old at the time, but I recieved it from the genius I reffered to, who had already recieved a pirated copy. Now this is one of the harder apps to crack, because it requires a dongle to start(or atleast it does now). Years went by, now they realesed a new version I needed(lost the copy of 9.0) so I looked on the popualar places and I found it. I tested it out and everything. even used it for a while(this was well I was on a OSx86 box btw), but then I got a real mac and decided that I liked the software enough to buy it. So I did, I bought the full educational package for $150. Same with Finale(though I only bought Allegro, because it's all I needed. I still haven't bought CS2 though, simply because I don't have the money, and I don't use it that much, but I will be buying lightroom once it's out of beta. I haven't bought WYSIWYG yet either because its $1000+ and it doesn't run on a mac(yet), but I still use my old copy.

On to microsoft, XP really made me mad, I may have installed my license of pro 25+(which was the limit before WGA was made bad) But guess what it was on 2 machines, and at different times, which is what the license says(yes I read it). So I didn't feel I should have to buy ANOTHER $300 copy of it, so I got a new copy. Same with MS office I paid for the student version for windows, I'm not shelling out another $200 to use it on my mac, its only installed on 1 computer. So I got a copy of that too.

Of course that's not the end of my priacy because I'm also a programmer, and I have the Ration Rose discs as well. IBM doesn't even advertise the price on those... And there's the Macromedia suite, and about 40 or so other apps and 4-5 games I play three times a year.

If I like and use a program, and the price isn't to far out of my budget(for a highschool kid, Vectorworks and Allegro were pushing it) then I will buy it. Hell I bought a mac after I fell in love with OSx86 didn't I.

#24
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I'm with Hagar on this (funny, I usually agree with Hagar...). Being able to test software without having to pay for it is very, very useful. If you use it for anything other than personal pleasure, you should pay for it.

There is an interesting article here on crytpo products, which is off-topic as far as piracy goes, but makes some very pertinent observations on software in general. I like the car analogy - you can fulfill your desire to buy a red car by looking at it before you buy it and making sure it's red. You have to guess at the manufacturer's claims that its fuel consumption is what you want, and you can't be sure until you've bought it, but at least you can test the claims after the sale. You probably will never know if the airbags work, and even if you are in an accident that deploys them, you won't be sure that they saved your life like they were supposed to since you may have survived for a dozen other reasons.

As the article says, software is like that car. You can buy a package that claims it does something, but find that it doesn't live up to those claims. You probably never know how well it does the job unless you have special equipment and skills to really test it. Does Photoshop produce better quality jpg files than Corel? Is Bestcrypt really secure? The question for me is "Do I want to spend $$$ on something just to have it sit on the shelf?"

I've downloaded pirated versions of many DVD authoring programs in an attempt to find one that does what I want in the way I want to do it. Most just haven't cut the mustard, and they were ditched. Many were not available as trials, and those that were often came crippled so you couldn't really try them properly. I found a product from a small company, at a sensible price, and I bought it. I don't feel bad that I used pirate software during the assessment.

One of the common justifications for piracy is that the user would never buy the package anyway, so the company hasn't lost anything. That holds fairly true in the case of the student with Photoshop who otherwise might have to settle for a cheap imitation. Where it falls down is the point at which the use becomes an everyday thing, or the output goes to other people. If you use something seriously, you should pay for it.

Like most things in life which are declared 'bad' by society, you can rationalise and justify endlessly. Piracy is wrong, but then, so is exceeding the speed limit - and I probably do that every day. It comes down to your own conscience and your view of the extent to which you are prepared to break the law. Generally we view the impact our actions will have on others. That doesn't change the reality that wrong is, well, just wrong.

Oh, and yes, I do have a genuine copy of Photoshop. Fortunately my company paid for it...

#25
John the Geek

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I own Photoshop, several versions too. All purchased as full EDU copies for my work at a University. Accademic copy is cheap, so why not?

I see piracy like this: If you are just messing with it, it's fine. If you are using it frequently you should pay for it, and if you are using it to make money for your company... then you should go straight to jail.

Ethics regarding piracy vary depending on the circumstances surrounding it's occurance. If I'm just some guy who wasn't going to buy it anyway, and it's a tinker toy once in a while (Painter IX for example) then I just consider it as a long trial version because that's how I use it anyway. Now if I start to use it more and begin to sell prints that I make with it then I will buy it, because I can't support a product that I'm not financially supporting myself.

I'm not working for free.. and neither are these programmers.

=)

#26
non sequitur

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im not sure if i have ever pirated something other than a few songs. i like to own my stuff, because i dont want to risk anything. i dont have a problem with piracy for personal use, but the people who pirate photoshop to use in business are {censored}. i choose open source alternatives instead of getting the pro suites. Also, my dad has a bunch of copies of pro software for work so i might use some of his stuff.

i think microsoft can go straight to hell if they told me i could only install my (legal) copy of xp on one machine. thats just stupid. I bought the damn software, i own the damn software. they can't tell me what to do with it.

i have yet to pay for shareware because i havent found any that i truly needed. also, i dont have paypal or anything...
but yeah. i see no problem at all in pirating for personal use as long as its for learning how to use it. if you can buy it, you should.

#27
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Hrm,
Well Mash, Apparently theres only one reason that people don't "Buy" Adobe Photoshop and other said products is simply because they are too high in price. For real...paying $400-700 for software is outrageous. Just like OSx86 $140 for an OS is a hefty price to pay, but since its Apple and its "reliable." I "steal" programs that barely do the job that i want them too. Now "GOOD" programs like Lineform and REALbasic I did purchase legally, cost me $140 for both. Basically, it has its right and wrong times to do it. If you can resist try not to, but if you are really broke and have to make a logo that's awesome by next week By all means "Borrow" :hysterical:

#28
theaerosolkid

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For me...I couldn't pirate software. Just couldn't do it. My father's a programmer and so I grew up with respect for the long, hard hours programmers put into their work. Now I work in his office as a protocols author and seeing the guys who work under him go at it day after day, I'd just feel waaay too guilty pirating software because I know the effort that goes into it.

Just my 2 cents :hysterical:

#29
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I agree (at least partly) with a lot of previous posts, but the simple bottom line I personally follow and beleive in is:

* If you are testing it, just mucking about with it, eager to learn or simply having fun with it: You shouldn't pay the hundreds of or $ that most programs cost.

* If you use an app often enough or it is your primary app (eg. Office, or for me OmniGraffle), you have a moral obbligation to buy it. If you can afford it, pay for it.

* If you are using it as a productivity tool, that you are actually making money off (ie CS2 or Logic or whatever). You MUST pay for it, if not it is stealing! Not learning!!

* If you can afford it (ie shareware or donationware) and you use it regularly (ie Cocktail), you have a moral obbligation to pay, or at least contribute to it. Support independent creativity!

I am a programmer, and have been in the business for over 3 Years now... I don't feel that people that want to learn or experiment from my work are stealing, on the contrary... They make me kind of proud... guess you could call it peer recognition... BUT, If you are making money out of anything I have even helped create, you must pay... You have to pay for what you get, simple really...

Sorry for the ramble... :hysterical:

J

#30
embries

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Throw in my thoughts here, not that they're all that much different than the others before me.

Music and Movies
I personally download the vast majority of these. I suggest everyone do the same. I want the RIAA and MPAA business model so trashed that the industry collapses and they have to face the reality of the 21st century. I do own over 1000 DVDs, all purchased legally (either new or used from a discount store). However, I do download pre-release movies because I'm a movie buff, and I'll probably buy it if it was at least half-way decent. Furthermore, being an audiophile, I've been invited to several private sites for the distribution of music content. Technically, this is piracy because the license on the music has not gone public-domain yet. However, the majority of the titles I'm downloading are out-of-print or otherwise un-attainable by ordinary means. So I think it's a bit short-sighted of the industry to make it illegal to get the content that was once available and is no longer available due to their poor estimation of demand.

Shareware and Freeware
As a general rule of thumb I support the authors of good shareware and freeware. I think their contributions to communities of enthusiasts (be it DVD users, or Home and Garden experts, or the next Emeril) are often overlooked and are stolen more often because of their easier (or non-existant) copy-protection schemes. This is a real shame, because these are the geniuses that can create free-form and without the support of an entire industry. Give them their due and let them take their projects to the next level.

Here's the back-half of my "general rule of thumb." If an independant author has a software title that is in "somewhat functional" state. That is to say some features work and others don't, or there's a timed release at which this feature will be available, then this feature is available at the next release, then I feel the author shouldn't be asking $50 or more for the software. I understand his/her right to ask whatever he/she wants for the code, as it is a product born of their own creativity. Yet, to ask everyday people to contribute a figure that is close to average retail price for many software titles is unjustified. Deliver all the pieces first, then maybe you can command the larger figure.

Industry Standard Apps
These are your photoshop, CAD, professional Database, etc. The number one problem is the "student discount" programs. Generally, the student prices are not that great when compared to the discount for other programs. The companies should understand the benefit of getting students involved with their software at an early age (since they'll be used to the software, they'll be more apt to use it in their careers, and more apt to ask their managers to buy the software for their businesses). It's really simple, give the software at very cheap prices to students who can verify their status. As for people who want personal use licenses at discount rates. I can see the industry point of view. It's very difficult to get people to buy business class licenses when there is a personal use license available. It's also harder to monitor these people to ensure they're using the correct version for their tasks. I say, call a spade a spade and either pony up for the business license, or don't use it.

#31
willgonz

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Here is my problem with software that is say $400. You spend that amount in only get $20 worth of the software. I think pay per use would be better. For every minute it is say $1. After you reach the retail value of the product you own it.

As for the Second post. I think any software that has been discontinued should go into Public Domain, pending there are no other owners. For example a classic game called "Lode Runner" came out by Broderbund. You can't buy it anymore. However the creator is still around and still owns rights to the game, at least the trademark.

#32
Metrogirl

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It seems there is a general consensus here -

* A lot of commercial software, aimed at big companies wth deep pockets, is overpriced for the average home user;

* Mostly people don't want to steal software, but feel justified if the price is ridiculous, they will make only personal use of it and the big company who produces it probably won't suffer;

* We support the small software houses and individual developers where we can reasonably afford to do so, and we will buy software which has given us real value or pleasure, even when we could pirate it.

Actually there's nothing new in the above, and a plea for software houses to take note would fall on chronically deaf ears. Adobe will always overprice Photoshop, because they know that large publishing companies can and do afford the $$$ asked. They make enough money this way not to have to worry too much about the home pirate, and they do sell 'Elements' at a lower price - and bundled 'light' versions have been around for years, free with various hardware. Their educational prices are aimed at institutions which generally can afford the goods.

Before ending this post, I will take a swipe at Sony for their unbelievable waste of time, money and consumer confidence in their protection schemes. ARccoSS protection on Sony DVDs infuriates me - my 5-year old Toshiba player can't play newer Sony DVDs at all because of this. Plus, I think region coding is a deplorable attempt to make money out of people like me who spend time in two regions and would theoretically have to buy two copies of everything just to watch in each place. I can overcome region coding and ARccoSS with AnyDVD (highly recommended) - and get rid of trailers and FBI warnings too - but that makes me a pirate. And then there was the Sony CD root-kit fiasco. Which of course supports some previous posts in this thread - if a big company is insensitive to the consumer or just plain arrogant, people feel infuriated by its policies and are even more likely to pirate its products.

I paid for AnyDVD even though I could get a crack off the internet. It's excellent, it's cheap, and the company is small. Another reinforcement of the views in this thread.

#33
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Just out of curiosity, what kind of support is there for legislating against DRM? Is it a good thing? Or is DRM needed? What do you think?

Personally I think DRM hurts the consumer too much to be justified.

In Sweden there is a "pirate party" that has won a lot of support thanks to its proposal to outlaw DRM.

#34
Metrogirl

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Just out of curiosity, what kind of support is there for legislating against DRM? Is it a good thing? Or is DRM needed? What do you think?

Personally I think DRM hurts the consumer too much to be justified.

In Sweden there is a "pirate party" that has won a lot of support thanks to its proposal to outlaw DRM.


Do you mean support in general, or support in this forum? I'd guess that almost all our members would like to see an end to DRM. I'm inclined to think that legislating against it will never happen, at least in the UK and US because politicians are prodded (and even bankrolled) by big companies, they think they know better than the consumer (too many examples to quote) and they play the 'law and order' card every time. Joe and Sally Public, who use their iPod or whatever just as the manufacturer intended, probably don't know about DRM and don't really care. Sad, eh?

#35
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I found that pirating is kind of a phase. When we are younger and dont have enough money to go out and spend $600-$700 on photoshop or what ever, you will pirate. But when you get older and have money, people usually have more morals and will actually go out and buy the software. Plus this doesnt make it right, but software companies make enough money where a couple hundred thousand people or how ever many doesnt really effect them.

#36
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Hmm... interesting. That reminds me of when I recently obtained WinZIP Self-Extractor 3.0 and cracked it because I needed it longer than 45 days. I wanted to use it for internal use and not to distribute the exes outside my base. Furthermore, If I ever do use this to make money off of it, I'll purchase it very first instant the money starts rolling in. Personally, I don't see the justification of a $50 price tag when it isn't any different from some of the other freeware variants out there. What REALLY chips my hide about this product is the fact that it costs $20 more than WinZIP itself! I mean come on! Do you really want to shell out that much dough for such a simple add-on tool?

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#37
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Piracy is wrong but the MPAA & RIAA try and defend themselves in the wrong way.

They say that it's thieft because i'm not buying it and by not buying it the industry isn't getting my money.

I say WHAT MONEY? Im a penniless student? Either way downloading ot no downloading they are not getting my money so how can the industry be any better or worse off?

O.K I'm at uni and hope to have started my own media company sometime within the next ten years. If it's successful and I'm pretty well off I'll probably buy stuff then when i have the money to spend on these things I'll spend it. until then i shall obtain them the only way i can for free via torrents. If i movie is good. I'll go to the cinema to watch it but 15 for a film? I'd never watch any!

i don't see how by being a data pirate me personally am costing the industries anything?

Ok so don't touch what you can't afford. In my neighbourhood. I think by downloading films and music i was probably committing the most lesser crime in my town.

#38
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Just a thought - I wonder how many people have bought software because they couldn't find a crack for it? I mean, they've downloaded some obscure shareware tool and really liked it, but because it's not mainstream the cracking groups haven't fixed it. So they either delete it in a fit of annoyance, or they shell out the relatively small purchase price. I do know people who have bought stuff simply because they couldn't find a crack, but would have pirated it otherwise.

What I'm getting at is that the distinction between 'not being able to afford' and 'choosing not to afford' is rather blurred in some cases. It's often a case of "I'd rather spend that $50 on a new drive than on some software which I can get for free" - and that's where the software developers have a point.

#39
TopazBar

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All software should be free and easily distributable. However, one should pay it if one can realize profit from selling it or using it.

#40
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Do you mean support in general, or support in this forum? I'd guess that almost all our members would like to see an end to DRM. I'm inclined to think that legislating against it will never happen, at least in the UK and US because politicians are prodded (and even bankrolled) by big companies, they think they know better than the consumer (too many examples to quote) and they play the 'law and order' card every time. Joe and Sally Public, who use their iPod or whatever just as the manufacturer intended, probably don't know about DRM and don't really care. Sad, eh?


Not all companies support DRM. I read somewhere that even big companies like Microsoft are starting to get more cautious about implementing it everywhere.

And I know quite a few non-techicians who are really upset about the music they bought which can not be burnt to CD etc.





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