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Will we get a hacked version of Leopard?


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#1
poodle2

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Just wanted to get you guys thoughts on whether we will see a hacked osx 10.5 for non apple hardware like we have now for tiger? Will they introduce any new security systems? If not will it be more compatible with todays hardware or not? Guess its too early to tell but just wondering what people thought...

#2
asap18

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We may get the kernel hacked and working. The big thing is that Apple may use EFI which we havent figured out yet and may cause a problem. If Maxxuss is truly back our chances have gone up much higher. We will probably know next week when Apple is most likely to release a preview at WWDC.

#3
Dr. Hurt

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I don't think we will be able to run leopard on our non-apple hardware because because apple has put a hardware lock in the new kernels of tiger (10.4.5-7), that is why we are still using the kernel from 10.4.4.
In leopard they will probably put even stronger hardware locks, and as we all think leopard will depend heavily on efi so it might be almost impossible to use with our PCs unless we have at least a good efi emulator (which is being worked on in MacEFIx86 project.
I am not trying to be pessimistic, but that is what I think will happen. (Eventhough I don't want it to!!!) :P

#4
Colonel

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I say we will, but it will be a few weeks/months before we get it. If it was made by man it can be hacked by man.

#5
Dr. Hurt

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I certainly hope so. I can't wait to get my hands on leopard. I hope it will have a lot of improvements (like better hardware support).
It is not made by any man.... It is made by highly experienced programmers, but hopefully we will get it to work.

#6
rjtd

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I know a guy who does CableTV boxes.
Even he cannot break what he does.
If it is well done, it can not be broken. Of course even the smarter programmers can make mistakes.

#7
blkblt

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CableTV boxes are closed systems by nature. The Mac OS hardware, by nature of using Intel chips and chipsets, is more hackable. Plus, cable boxes by their nature are connected to the provider, and this connectedness (along with the updates and hack workarounds that can come down the pipe) also contribute to making Cable TV boxes less hackable.

#8
MacSimizeDenver

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Well, i think what humans create can they also destroy - what I mean is what any of Apple create, another one can crack it. I'm optimistic that we will have Leopard until 2007.

If not and I'm wrong - i still have Tiger which is working 1000 times better than any Windows i had before.

#9
Takuro

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The real hacking of Tiger pretty much haulted at 10.4.4 when the kernel began implementing advanced power management and other features typically only found in Core-Duo systems. That was back in January. Since then, nobody has managed to hack the newer kernels and we all now use system that use a lot of older system files because people haven't been able to get past the issues in the newer versions of Tiger.

So therefore, nobody can say with confidence that we'll readily be able to hack the Leopard kernel as if it's no big deal. The truth is, they probably can't. Also keep in mind that Leopard will sport a new kernel that drops the whole mach idea that Steve originally used in his NeXT program.

There are only two possible scenarios that would allow you to run Leopard:

1) You buy a Core-Duo system (almost all the newer Intel PCs are Duo at this point)

2) When Leopard arrives, increased hype will give hacker communities more attention and a massive influx of active members (as we've seen in the past.) Among all these new people, one of them might actually have the intelligence to hack the core for any CPU.

And that's just the beginning. I didn't even mention EFI...

With the current userbase of active hackers, Leopard will never be cracked. I don't think they're that capable. The only hope is for somebody new to show up who has an incredible aptitude that exceeds all others.

#10
kerimeton

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like maxxuss, who, in the case comes back, his site says (accounts of my death have been greatly exaggerated)
I think it will be done, I mean, eventually someone will find some weakness, crack some code, or find some workaround. like with the xbox 360. It took a while, but then someone found some workaround. and that has been expanded and will be worked on. ( team xecuter is close )
it will be done
but it will take a while

#11
iLux

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I don't think it will be done. Apple enginners are working on Leopard with the goal of integrating a better protection.

#12
iMaurice

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Itll be done, but itll take forever

by that time though, osx 10.6 or 10.7 will be out :)

#13
quixos

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i think the reason we don't have a kernel, or certain BSD Subsystem files later than 10.4.4 is cause we don't need them to run 10.4.7 on our current hardware. i don't think there is a lack of talent so much, as there is simply a lack of interest.

when it is absolutely necessary, the effective hackers who are at this moment satisfied with their working OS X systems, will join those currently working on kernels and EFI, and solve the problem.

if after two years of running OS X on a mac clone, we have to buy DualCore, or move on to real macs, it won't be the first time we've had to upgrade hardware to use a new operating system. i'm very positive. :)

#14
MrDee

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Also keep in mind that Leopard will sport a new kernel that drops the whole mach idea that Steve originally used in his NeXT program.


As far as I know, a new kernel in Leopard is pure speculation. That rumor started back a few months ago when Avie Tevanian, Apple's chief software technology officer and the man credited with building the core of OS X, announced he left his position at Apple.

The speculation grew from that one announcement into meaning that Apple was possibly up to something. Seriously now, Avie couldn't be the only person responsible for maintaining the Mach kernel at Apple. Avie probably said to him self, "hey, they are doing a great job on their own, might as well move on to something more challenging".

If you take into account, he has been the princpal designer and engineer of the Mach kernel since the start of his career, its obvious he got pretty bored with it. Also, the fans were further flamed when John Sircusa of Ars Technica was contemplating the idea of a new kernal in 10.5 in an article.
----

As for cracking Leopard, maybe, possibly not right away. We thought we would never be able to install Tiger x86 on generic PC's, we have been able to install all updates from 10.4.4 up to .7. so far. So, hope is on our side for 10.5 on generic PCs.

#15
A Nonny Moose

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Chances are it will be hacked. Then Apple will release an update to break it. Then that update will be hacked. Then Apple will release a security update to break it. Then that update will be hacked.

All Apple has to do is make the time cost of the Hackintosh big and only a small minority will steal the OS.

#16
Sherry Haibara

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I think that it will be hacked, but we need a lot of time to do it.
So I thought a few hours ago... Should we have a preview DVD of Leopard to workin' on kernel hacking?
If yes it will be a great thing, just 'cause we may can improve our abilities about Mac OS X kernel hacking. And I want to see Time Machine running on my OSX86 system too! :(
Sherry Haibara

#17
lord_muad_dib

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uhmm... not to mention that 10.4 was cracked using darwin as a testing & debugging environment, there were some sources too.
ATM leopard seems will never have an opensouce counterpart.
i doubt that the leopard kernel will run on today's hacked 10.4, so it will be very hard to archieve

#18
ultrasoul

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All Apple has to do is make the time cost of the Hackintosh big and only a small minority will steal the OS.


Somehow I seriously doubt that Apple's updates, and hence breaking the usability of newer kernels on generic x86, would seriously turn a majority of PC users to Apple hardware. It is still, as it always was, highly overpriced.

What I think will happen is that the community would increase the support of hacking of the newer updates. And that is where Maxuss and Co. come into the picture

#19
rogabean

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It's all about *need*.. and by need I mean "when the majority need it"

We're all using an older kernel right now. Why? Not because the newer one's are impossible to hack, but because there is no pressing need by the majority to do so.

Tiger works for most of us in it's current form. Would some of us benefit from one of the newer kernels in Tiger? Yes. I can tell you right now us ATI Radeon 7500 folks are being held back by the kernel being what it is. I figured out last night what was making us dependent on the older OpenGL issues. Are we a majority enough to motivate more people to hack at the newer kernels? No.

However... 10.5 IS enough to motivate more people to do so because everyone wants to run 10.5 and 10.5 will not run off of the old kernel. That much we already know.

The advanced power management features in the newer kernels is merely a hurdle, just like SSE3 was a hurdle for a lot of folks and the TPM was a hurdle. If it can be made by man, it can be broken by man. And as with most software, it can be emulated somehow if all other options fail.

Have heart people and start studying up on the kernel and the OS. A lot of us are already looking at 10.5, but the more people that are doing so the better. You may not know a lot, but you may just be the one to notice something others have overlooked. No reason to sit idle and just wait for things to happen.

Part of the fun of the hackintosh is breaking it. It's through breaking it that we learn how it truly works.

It will happen, and we have all the time in the world to do so.

#20
Harietje

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Maybe PearPC is a way for the PC-people to at least have a possibility to try Leopard?!?
PearPC





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