Israel and Palestine

[gwprod12]

Let's be honest. I think terrorism and guerilla tactics are perfectly acceptable for a weaker force to employ. However, when you get yourself into a war, you have to accept the consequences.

 

The fact that Isreal has killed more Lebanese than the Lebanese have killed Isrealis doesnt mean that the Isrealis arent fighting fair. It means the Isrealis are better at it.

 

I just dont get how Hezbollah can lob rockets into a neighbourhood of civilians with the intent to murder them, then act like it's unfair when Isreal does the same. If you didnt think you could win a war with Isreal, why did you start one?

 

Both sides are equally justified in obliterating the other. It's war. Just as the United States was justified (in a pragmatical sense) when it vaporized Nagasaki and Hiroshima. If the lebanese are so upset that they're being bombed into submission, maybe they ought to first look at who got them into this "war".

 

It follows a string of logic. If Hezbollah receives support from the common people, then the common people support Hezbollah's actions, therefore they must take responsibility for what Hezbollah has done, and accept the retribution.

 

Though Isreal might be wise to let up on their campaign, they arent under any legal, moral, ethical or pragmatical compulsion to do so. No one is going to step in and say "Isreal, stop". Because frankly... they didnt start it.

[Mebster]

Let’s get something right.

 

Hamas, Hezbollah, Bin Ladin none of these bomb civilians simply because they want to. Hamas and Hezbollah bomb civilian because there civilians are bombed (not that this is right). They've said this many times. Every time one of their citizens is killed they wage revenge "in a similar manner". So let’s stop all this rubbish about Hamas and Hezbollah choosing to hit civilians simply for the sake of attacking civilians.

 

So, Isreal should do nothing when it's soldiers are kidnapped?

I did not say they should do nothing. But diplomacy would have been worth a try before you started firing into other nations. Diplomacy after all is what Hamas and Hezbollah wanted. Was that too much to ask for. I mean they might as well behead the soldiers now as they are of no use.

 

They should do nothing when a cafe is blown up by a suicide bomber?

Firstly this isn't relevant. As this isn't what escalated the current situation. What does however is a 12 year old girl’s entire family being blow apart by an Israeli shell on a seaside picnic. Remember it was only after this that Hamas seeked revenge, and rightfully so.

 

I'm capable of looking at both sides. Why arent you?

I see deaths of the value of (Israeli) 1:10 (Arabs) and it's hard for me to look both ways.

 

The terrorists declared war on Israel - that's what taking hostages means.

Come onnnn Mash, taking hostage doesn’t mean war. It means ransoms or something similar. Not war. If it means war then why take them. Why not kill them. Hamas wanted something (freeing women and children in Israeli prisons) and taking soldiers was one way of negotiation this.

 

What options does Israel have left?

Before you started blowing up all of the Hamas governments building and destroying all of Lebanon it might not have been such a bad idea to try and negotiate first. That’s all they were asking. NOT WAR! I mean it would have saved hundreds of lives. At the same time Hamas and the Lebanese governments have been calling for a seas fire. Israel refuses.

 

If Arabs would recognize Israel and actually stop firing at them, there would be peace... and a Palestinian state.

I’m sure when Israel stops firing at the Palestinians and removes the checkpoints every few miles, the temptation to fire a rocket at Israel will be less likely.

 

A Palestinian state? That’s a joke. Their elected government (Hamas) is being punished as are the Palestinian people for electing them. How do you expect them to have a state if they can't even have a government that can run the country.

 

It means the Israelis are better at it

Better at killing civilians? That’s really something to be proud of. Israel knows that its shells are capable of doing more damage than a Hezbollah rocket but they still fire blindly. Firing at oil tanks? What the advantage in that?

 

If Hezbollah receives support from the common people, then the common people support Hezbollah's actions, therefore they must take responsibility for what Hezbollah has done, and accept the retribution.

So you're saying it's ok for the Lebanese people to be killed as they are. All because they might support Hezbollah. Therefore if Iran nuked Israel all because Israelis support the Israeli Army it's also ok? Even though I’m a Muslim I would not want that.

 

No one is going to step in and say "Israel, stop". Because frankly... they didn’t start it.

I might have missed something but who started war? Not Hezbollah. They took hostages. That’s not war. That’s more like a major crime. But not war. Otherwise every day in Iraq Shias take Sunnis hostage and Sunnis take Shias hostage. Is that civil war also? That's just absurd.

[gwprod12]

All that stuff is propaganda. Nothing more.

 

Hezbollah and Hamas have never asked for international mediation of the conflict with Isreal. It is, I repeat IS, an act of war to cross your border, grab a soldier, and take him to your base camp.

 

I'm not saying that the Lebanese and Palestinians dont have a valid beef with Isreal. I'm not saying that shooting missles and civilians as your means of war is unacceptable.

 

I'm saying, quite clearly, and something that it's hard to disagree with... that If you punch someone in the face, and they beat you to the ground, you were asking for it. You cant cry foul. "I only hit him in the face, he didnt need to hit me in the face, chest, stomach and arms. That's uncalled for"

 

Is it not true that Lebanon is a sovereign nation? Is it not true that Isreal doesnt occupy Lebanon? It seems like Lebanon HAD peace with Isreal until this conflict. So, how can you claim that Hezbollah wanted to force a peace with Isreal by capturing it's soldiers? Especially when Hezbollah has claimed quite the opposite, that they want to obliterate Isreal (Hamas wants to as well... that's not peace).

 

Why even bother discussing something if you're going to be intellectually dishonest?

 

And um... Would Iran be justified in Nuking all of Isreal because Isreal Supports the Isreali Army? If Isreal is in open war with Iran, that is, firing missles at them, then yes, Iran IS justified.

 

If the situation were reversed, Isreal was a weaker, refugee nation with a culture of guerilla fighting, and Lebanon was a democratic nation with a well-trained and well equipped army, My position would be the same. If Isreali Guerillas jumped across the border and grabbed two Lebanese army men, dragged them back to base camp, and the Lebanese started shooting missles at Isreal, I would say "hey, Isreal is asking for it".

 

Hezbollah: Toss those two soldiers back across the border into Isreal.

Isreal: Stop shelling Lebanon.

 

I think it kinda comes down to the fact that Hezbollah and Hamas both have proven a complete unwillingness to be peaceful and reasonable. If they want to change that view, they neeeeeeeeeed to petition the UN for diplomatic assistance.

[johnniecarcinogen]

Let's get something right.

I did not say they should do nothing. But diplomacy would have been worth a try before you started firing into other nations. Diplomacy after all is what Hamas and Hezbollah wanted. Was that too much to ask for. I mean they might as well behead the soldiers now as they are of no use.

 

So, what you are saying is that Israel should have given Hezbollah what they wanted. If you reward their actions by doing what they want, what is going to prevent them from doing it again?

 

Why should they behead them?

[gwprod12]

Yeah, beheading captives that didnt get you what you want is definitely good behavior.

 

"Oh, turns out Isreal doesnt wanna negotiate. Now you die." Definitely peaceful, loving, reasonable people.

 

EDIT: So, I'm watching Exosquad. Marsala (a Neosapien) just got taken by Terrans and held as ransom for the Exofleet to round up all Neosapiens and put them in slave camps. If Exofleet doesnt comply, the Terrans will kill Marsala. JT Marsh asks Admiral Winfield what he's going to do, and Admiral Winfield says "I cannot give in to terrorists, no matter what the cost".

 

You cant give in to terrorists. It only encourages them.

[Swad]

The problem with negotiating with terrorists is that it makes them realize they can be effective... and then everyone will do it. So let's say that Israel says "Hey, Palestinians, you're right... thanks for kidnapping our soldier to help remind us we were keeping some of yours. We'll let them go."

 

Does the terrorism stop? No. It gets worse. That's why they can't negotiate, Ace - it just encourages it.

 

I'm sure when Israel stops firing at the Palestinians and removes the checkpoints every few miles, the temptation to fire a rocket at Israel will be less likely.

 

You know why those things happen? The rocket attacks. The responsibility for ending them lies solely with the Palestinians. If they stopped the violence, Israel would have no need to do anything with them. Ever. They could go on their merry way like Egypt. History shows a precedence here...

[jgrimes80]

Just to be fair...

 

If group of homeless people came to your home took over

proclaiming a right to be their because you threw rocks at them

Then proceeded to "negotiate" giving half of what was yours to begin with in exchange for peace...

you're not going to be to pleased either.

 

I know that the Jews claimed that it's their right to be there because of the years of persecution and exiled they endured, but I don't see America paying restitution/ giving land to the ancestors of African slaves...

 

I don't care whether a Jewish state exists, but Israel hasn't really be to sensitive to recognizing the delicateness of their situation. Everyone around them doesn't want them there, Israel should be on it's tip-toes because they WILL lose a full blown war. When you move to a nieghborhood and no one likes you, treats you like {censored}, and harasses you; what happens? Do the nieghbors leave, or do you leave?

 

Which leads me to my whole view of mounting engagements and why the Bush isn't taking military actions despite Isreali's being the premier recipient of American aid... I think our administration wants to let things get completely out of hand in order to win support of the UN and then go in a secure more "nameless" valuable assets like what occured in Iraq because our military capacity is phemonenal.

 

For those interested in a good read about oil and America, I just finished a book entitled Blood and Oil by Michael T. Klare

[johnniecarcinogen]

Hezbollah's goal, I believe, is war. They knew what Isreal's response would be and they are hoping on attracting all arabs and muslim's to the battlefield to fight Israel. All of this talk about Israel over responding is exactly what they want to hear in order to recruit more jihadists and initiate the full scale holy war. What kind of organization puts an AK-47 on their flag?

[Then there were none.]

Its never going to be sorted out, we have about a week befor we (meaning "the coalition") get involved, so i guess george bush will be happy, more oil for him.

[yossicl]

Muslims lament Israel's existence

 

from the International Herald Tribune of June 4 2003

 

Meg Bortin/IHT IHT

Wednesday, June 4, 2003

 

 

PARIS If the American threat of preemptive military action against Iraq inflamed the Muslim world over the winter, the war itself fanned the flames, with a sharp new rise in hostility toward the United States, the latest Pew survey has found.

 

.

 

Animosity is so high that solid majorities in five populations surveyed expressed confidence in Osama bin Laden to "do the right thing" in world affairs.

 

.

 

And, at a time when the Israeli government has accepted the right of Palestinians to statehood, most Muslim populations surveyed believe by wide margins that the needs of Palestinians cannot be met so long as the state of Israel exists.

 

.

 

The poll, conducted by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, surveyed more than 15,000 people in May. Muslim populations included were Indonesia, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Morocco, Nigeria, Pakistan, the Palestinian Authority and Turkey.

 

.

 

The survey shows that negative attitudes among Muslims toward the United States have soared anew since the war, both in the Middle East and beyond.

 

.

 

Anti-Americanism peaked in Jordan, where 99 percent of the people now have a somewhat or very unfavorable opinion of the United States, up from 75 percent last summer, the survey found. Hostility was also extremely high in the Palestinian Authority (98 percent).

 

.

 

More than eight out of 10 in Turkey and Pakistan questioned since the war have a negative view of the United States, as do seven out of 10 in Lebanon and two-thirds in Morocco. The most extreme shift was seen in Indonesia, where 61 percent had a favorable opinion last summer but now only 15 percent do.

 

.

 

Steven Simon, an analyst of Muslim affairs with the Rand Corporation, said the about-face in Indonesia could be explained by "a rising sense of Islamic identity of a kind that is new" for that country.

 

.

 

Part of this new self-perception, he said, is tied to the return of people who went through the Islamic fundamentalist camps in Afghanistan and became radicalized there. "The way they see the United States as having acted in the last couple of years confirms views like, 'The United States is evil, the United States wants to devour the Muslim world.'"

 

.

 

As for the spike in hostility in Jordan, he said, the war in Iraq was "colossally unpopular" there and heightened the resentment of the country's largely Palestinian population, who already saw U.S. policies in the Middle East as "helping to perpetuate a situation that is grossly unfair to Palestinians."

 

.

 

Even in Nigeria, traditionally a friend of the United States, favorable opinion sank to 61 percent after the war from 77 percent last summer.

 

.

 

Several Muslim populations also express strong dislike of Americans as people. Nine out of 10 Palestinians, eight out of 10 Jordanians and 60 percent of Turks say they feel somewhat or very unfavorable toward Americans. The rise is sharpest in Jordan, where fewer than half had a negative view last summer.

 

.

 

Still, among Muslims with an unfavorable view of the United States, most put the onus on President George W. Bush - who has included two Muslim countries in his "axis of evil" and has focused his war on terror on the Islamic world - rather than America in general.

 

.

 

Distrust today blazes so brightly that majorities in seven of eight Muslim populations surveyed - Turkey, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait - expressed fears that the United States could become a military threat to their country.

 

.

 

In Morocco, 79 percent said they felt Islam was under serious threat today, and people in other countries largely agreed, in many cases far more strongly than last summer. In Pakistan, for example, 64 percent now say Islam is seriously threatened, up from 28 percent in summer 2002. The threat is perceived most sharply in Jordan, by 97 percent, up from 81 percent last summer.

 

.

 

Perhaps as a consequence, bin Laden was one of the three "leaders" most trusted by the nine Muslim populations surveyed, outranking even the UN secretary-general, Kofi Annan. The Qaeda leader's confidence rating was matched only by Yasser Arafat, leader of the Palestine Liberation Organization, and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.

 

.

 

As for the crisis in the Middle East, in a wave of sentiment that bodes ill for the future of the U.S.-sponsored "road map" to peace, Muslims lined up strongly behind the opinion that "the rights and needs of the Palestinian people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists."

 

.

 

The conviction that no way can be found for Israel and the Palestinians to coexist is strongest in Morocco (90 percent), followed by Jordan (85 percent), the Palestinian Authority (80 percent), Kuwait (72 percent), Lebanon (65 percent), Indonesia (58 percent) and Pakistan (57 percent).

 

.

 

Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who chairs the Pew project, called these results "very disheartening, and very dangerous, frankly."

 

.

 

"I hope that this is temporary and that, if there are some improvements in the situation because of the peace process, it will change," she said. "There is no way Israel is going to disappear. We will just have to find some way to mitigate those feelings."

 

.

 

Even beyond the Muslim world, the United States is seen as favoring Israel over the Palestinians unfairly. Those sharing this attitude range from 99 percent in Jordan to a surprising 47 percent in Israel itself. Only in the United States does a plurality say that U.S. policies in the Middle East are fair.

 

.

 

Overall, Muslim populations see U.S. policies as destabilizing the Middle East, as do pluralities in many other countries surveyed. Nearly 50 percent take this view in France and Spain, as do 63 percent in Morocco, 74 percent in Indonesia, and 91 percent in Jordan.

 

.

 

Regarding the U.S.-led war, disappointment was widespread among Muslims that Iraq put up so little resistance. More than 70 percent shared this view in Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, Lebanon, Jordan, Morocco and the Palestinian Authority. The notable exception was Kuwait, which was invaded by Iraq in 1990 and where 61 percent said they were happy Iraq did not put up much of a fight.

 

.

 

Despite the animosity toward America, the survey found "a considerable appetite in the Muslim world for political freedoms," the Pew report says.

 

.

 

In eight of the nine Muslim populations surveyed, at least 50 percent believe Western-style democracy can work in their countries. The exception is Indonesia, where 53 percent see democracy as a Western way of doing things that would not work in their country.

 

International Herald Tribune

[yossicl]

For those who don't know, Dennis Miller is a comedian

who has a show called Dennis Miller Live on HBO.

He is not Jewish.

He recently said the following about the Modest situation:

 

 

"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service

to all Americans who still don't get it,

I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs,

which is all you really need.

 

Here we go:

 

The Palestinians want their own country.

There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.

It's a made up word.

Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.

Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient

but is really a modern invention

 

Before the Israelis won the land in the 1967 war,

Gaza was owned by Egypt, the West Bank was owned by Jordan,

and there were no "Palestinians."

 

As soon as the Jews took over and started growing

oranges as big as basketballs,

what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians,"

weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

 

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian"

anymore to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy

at our deaths, until someone points out they're being taped.

 

 

Instead, let's call them what they are

:

"Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life

And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In

The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."

 

I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN.

How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."

Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country.

Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't.

They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years,

especially two years ago at Camp David

but if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights

and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse,

you actually have to figure out some way to make a living.

 

That's no fun. No, they want what all the other

Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel.

They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course --

that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel.

 

Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity"

as their textbooks call it --

for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries

to divert the attention of their own people

away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate,

poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth,

and if you've ever been around God's Earth . . . you know

that's really saying something.

 

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic

about the great history and culture of the Muslim Midleast.

Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the

world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that

one.

 

Chew this around & spit it out: 500 million Arabs; 5 million Jews.

Think of all the Arab countries as a football field,

and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it.

And now these same folks swear that, if Israel gives them

half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals..

 

Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to

obliterate the tiny country and the constant din

of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea?

Oh, that? We were just kidding.

 

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day:

Just reverse the Numbers.

Imagine 500 million Jews and 5 million Arabs.

I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it .

Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades

and dynamite to themselves? Of course not.

 

Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations

to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense.

Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible.

Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their

bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.

 

No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace,

the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

 

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that,

with vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as

Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible,

and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of

super models who've just had their drugs taken away.

 

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger

of losing moral weight. We've already lost some.

After September 11th, our president told us and the world he was going

to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them.

Beautiful.

Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of

an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day),

start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.

 

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day,

we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration

to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean

and east of the Jordan.

[gwprod12]

Okay. I can never figure out if Dennis Miller is the biggest liar in the world, or just the stupidest person in the world.

 

The British had a mandate called Palestine. It included all of Palestine and all of Jordan. Because of an agreement with the arabs in Jordan, Britain broke the Jordan part of the Palestinian mandate off and called it Transjordan. It was to be a monarchy (and still is). So, being left with Palestine (all of the palestinian mandate west of the jordan river), the British decided to allow Jewish colonization into the mandate. After a while there were a lot of jews, but more "Palestinians" or "Arabs from the Palestinian Mandate". etc and so forth. In 1948, the UN constructed a nation for the jewish population, giving the rest of the land to the "Palestinian Arabs". In the past 50 years, Isreal has conquered much of that former Palestinian land, through a process of reverse conquest (people attack them, they attack back, they end up with more than they started with).

 

The Palestinians didnt just materialize to steal everything the Jews had gotten, as Dennis Miller (the most stupid/ignorant fool in the world) thinks. They were there already. The Palestinians have a valid beef with Isreal. Just as the Isrealis have a valid beef with the Palestinians.

 

Solving this problem isnt as simple as just saying "Palestinians, stay in the west bank and gaza strip" and "Isrealis, stay in Isreal" and "Get along, or else"

 

I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that the Palestinians who live in the west bank are expatriots and exiles. There are a lot of Palestinian citizens of Isreal. Isreal isnt just jews.

 

EDIT: The west bank is a conquest of Jordan, that Jordan no longer claims.

[johnniecarcinogen]

EDIT: The west bank is a conquest of Jordan, that Jordan no longer claims.

 

Give it back to Jordan then.

[gwprod12]

Jordan took it from Isreal. Isreal retook it from Jordan. Jordan doesnt want it back. Isreal doesnt want it either (because annexation would give palestinians too much power in the Knessit). Technically, it is occupied territory. But the UN and most nations say it doesnt belong to anyone (except possibly the Palestinians)

[BRP]

Just to be fair...

 

If group of homeless people came to your home took over

proclaiming a right to be their because you threw rocks at them

Then proceeded to "negotiate" giving half of what was yours to begin with in exchange for peace...

you're not going to be to pleased either.

 

I know that the Jews claimed that it's their right to be there because of the years of persecution and exiled they endured, but I don't see America paying restitution/ giving land to the ancestors of African slaves...

Well, for one thing, descendants of African slaves mostly stayed in America because they had more of a home in America than Africa and most couldn't afford to go back if they wanted to. Not only that, but some people actually try to get reparations for slavery (without much success, of course; it's a pretty lopsided deal and slavery in the U.S. is one and a half centuries over, lawful segregation has been stamped out for more than 30 years, and frankly there are some people who could receive repayment who would consider it outright insulting and unnoble).

 

For another thing, the Jews do (or at least should) not claim their right to the land for persecution (and few are naive enough to think that merely having the land is any way to end it), they claim the right from history. Religiously, Abraham and his people were given the blessing of God and the right to the land. God also made it quite clear: if they rebelled against Him, they would be cast out of the land. If they repented afterwards, they would be returned to the land after the punishment was over (which could take hundreds of years, even!). The cycle of exile and restoration of the Jews to and from Israel is recorded in the Bible and in strictly historical texts. We know modern Israel is more or less the same area in which the Jews made their homes. And get this... the standard Rashi commentary on Genesis 1:1 says this of the phrase "In the beginning":

 

Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from “This month is to you,” (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with “In the beginning?” Because of [the verse] “The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations” (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, “You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan],” they will reply, "The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.

 

That is not a Zionist construct, it was compiled into Rashi's commentary made in the Middle Ages. But it is clear that in Jewish theology, Israel is the divinely appointed place for the Jewish people. Christian theology reveals to us other things about Israel and Jerusalem being holy places for God's people, but obviously the Jews in don't subscribe to that.

 

I don't care whether a Jewish state exists, but Israel hasn't really be to sensitive to recognizing the delicateness of their situation. Everyone around them doesn't want them there, Israel should be on it's tip-toes because they WILL lose a full blown war. When you move to a nieghborhood and no one likes you, treats you like {censored}, and harasses you; what happens? Do the nieghbors leave, or do you leave?

I take it you don't know much about the Israeli military. Not only can they hold their own agains the rest of the Middle East, they have in the past (in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968-70, 1973, etc. ad nauseam). The Bible from Genesis to the Revelation of John pretty much places all bets on Israel when it all comes down to the "full blown war". To people rooted in faith, having the place that belongs to you ordained by your god is not exactly something you can back down on.

 

Which leads me to my whole view of mounting engagements and why the Bush isn't taking military actions despite Isreali's being the premier recipient of American aid... I think our administration wants to let things get completely out of hand in order to win support of the UN and then go in a secure more "nameless" valuable assets like what occured in Iraq because our military capacity is phemonenal.

Pah. Conspiracy theory at best. I haven't a doubt in my mind that the IDF could wipe out the enemy if they didn't hold back (much less need U.S. forces for any combat assistance), but that is not what Israel's goal is.

[gwprod12]

The Isrealis have a "historical" and "religious" and "legal" right to their land. That's all true. That's also all irrelevant. The jews keep their land by the only right that matters; They have guns and arent afraid to use them. And they also have good diplomats who have garnered support from the nations in the world that actually matter.

[BRP]

The Arabs have guns and ain't afraid to use 'em either. But Israel wouldn't be where it is today if they didn't seriously think they needed to be there, y'know.

[gwprod12]

I dont buy that the only reason all of them live there is because God said so. They were given that land, and they're going to hold onto it until they're all destroyed.

 

If the only reason they're perservering is because the Torah says God gave them that land... Why does everyone else in the world cling to their nation when someone else tries to kick them out? Shouldnt they either have a text that explicitly states that God wants them there? Or just pack up and leave?

 

Is that the secret? Were the Bosnian Serbs under the impression that God told them to stay? is that why they did? When the British tried to suppress the uprising in the American Colonies, did we fight on because God said so? I'm confused.

[johnniecarcinogen]

Jordan took it from Isreal. Isreal retook it from Jordan. Jordan doesnt want it back. Isreal doesnt want it either (because annexation would give palestinians too much power in the Knessit). Technically, it is occupied territory. But the UN and most nations say it doesnt belong to anyone (except possibly the Palestinians)

 

You explian why Israel doesn't want the West Bank (because annexation would give palestinians too much power in the Knessit), but you didn't say why Jordan doesn't want it. Could you elaborate?

[domino]

Bah, this {censored} about war here and war there. Man, Ass if Israel didn't ask for permission from Uncle Bush and Blair if they can throw bombs at some other territory. Blair and Bush new about this long before last week, yet didn't care to warn it's own expats. Israel even warned them a week before they started the bombing campaign.

 

So Taiwan is doing there military exercise to show China they have some {censored} to throw back at them in response to the 800 missiles aimed at Taiwan. I guess when that starts, the press will forget about the Middle East. Speaking of, let just forget about the people dying in Iraq and focus on Lebanon.

 

And what other country vetoed the ceasefire other than Bush? That just shows you that type of redneck piece of {censored} he is. He would rather make friends than save lives.

[yossicl]

gwprod12,

 

Way you didn't refer and ignore to "Muslims lament Israel's existence" (from the International Herald Tribune)?

It's too hard for you to answer?

[Then there were none.]

Well if iran get involved then there will be nuclear war= ww3

[gwprod12]

yossicl

 

"Way you didn't refer and ignore to "Muslims lament Israel's existence" (from the International Herald Tribune)?

It's too hard for you to answer?"

 

I dont understand your question.

[Skittle]

Bush is not responsible for everything that goes on in this world, so you can't go around criticizing him for everything that goes on in this world. Saving lives isn't all about blowing things up, and firing missles every which way. Alone the U.S. can't do everything, but with friends and allies you can accomplish a lot more. We back Isreal because they are our ally. They do have a right to exist and defend themselves in the case of now with Lebanon and Hezballah.. exuse spelling.. The main part I think is the U.N. could be doing more. As I heard it put today.. when are we going to get rid of the "toothless tiger" in head of the U.N. Bolton even stated that the U.N. is not doing everything in it's power to bring peace. Peace is in the hands of the countries who harbor terrorist organizations.

[james2mart]

If you are not a Christian, you can ignore this if you wish, but I'm not making a religious argument, just a point.

 

George Bush is a methodist. George Bush knows about the prophecy about the rebuilding of the temple (Israel) and how nobody would like them because only "God's chosen people" would be able to fertilize soil and profit from a freaking desert. This is all well documented (symbolically, so believe it if you wish, but dont if you disagree) in Revelation. While Bush knows that all this is going on, he knows that if Israel DOESNT fight for their land, and get support to do it, then the Jews will eventually get pushed off their land. The fighting against the Jews will never stop. Why?

 

In the text of the Quran, it states that christians and all nonbelievers of Islam should be killed. Thats what it says, and I've read it myself. You've all seen it plastered all over the news. The suicide bombers are considered "Radical Muslims" and are taking it to the extreme. while these Radical Muslims are sadly misguided, they are faithful to what they believe. I pity them. The Muslims will not stop until the Jews are dead.

 

Bush knows that if the Muslims have success against the Jews and defeat them, then nearly every Christian in this lifetime will lose faith in God. God said he would protect his Chosen people, and he has. He will. Bush is doing what he believes to be in accordance with God's will. He's a religous man and we all know it.

 

Sounds kinda confusing but I hope its understandable. Not trying to start a religious debate, but just an interesting tidbit.