[GUIDE] Vostro 1400 Snow Leopard 10.6.3 Installation

[xRotorHead]

VERSION 4 - UPDATED 16 MAY 2010

 

This is what I did to get Snow Leopard 10.6.3 installed on my Dell Vostro 1400. My Vostro has the Nvidia GeForce 8400 M GS video card.

 

To follow this guide, you need to download the updated snow-vostro-V4.zip file and extract to a convenient location.

 

From another OsX system, I used Disk Utility to create a GPT-formated Mac OsX Extended partition (We'll name it "Snow" for discussion purposes).

 

From the within the other OsX system, go to the 10.6 Installer DVD dmg /System/Installation/Packages/, and run the OSInstall.mpkg to the newly created Snow partition.

 

Note: If you want to install to an MBR-formatted partition, you may need to first have the installation DVD dmg copied on the hard drive and mounted, then replace the OSInstall.mpkg from my snow-vostro.zip file into the 10.6 Retail Installer dmg /System/Installation/Packages/ folder.

 

If you're having trouble finding the OSInstall.mpkg after the installation DVD is mounted, on the top menu, click Go, then select Go to Folder. Paste this: "/Volumes/Mac OS X Install DVD/System/Installation/Packages" without quotes into the box, and hit enter. You should see the OSInstall.mpkg there.

 

It should take about 15 minutes and may fail near the end of the installation. That's okay, proceed anyway after a successful (or failed) installation. Close the installer, but don't reboot yet. Now, get ready to use the snow-vostro zip file referenced above.

 

- Delete IOATAFamily.kext and AppleIntelCPUPowerManagement.kext from Snow's S/L/E

- If you're doing this process from an existing 10.6 installation, download and run the 10.6.3 update to Snow

- Run Chameleon 2 RC4 to Snow

- Delete Extra from the root of Snow an replace with the Extra from snow-vostro.zip file

- Reboot with verbose mode to see any hang ups (hopefully none).

- Go through first-time setup as usual (you'll need a USB mouse/keyboard at this point)

- Using Kext Helper b7, drag and drop the OSXRestart.kext, VoodooPS2Controller.kext, VoodooBattery.kext, VoodooPowerMini.kext, VoodooSDHC.kext and VoodooHDA.kext into its main kext/path window, then click Easy Install.

- Run Kext Utility

- Reboot, you should now have sound, SD card reader, Restart, some form of speedstep, and the battery icon

- If you hadn't already done so in step 2 above (because you're doing this from an existing 10.5 installation), download and run the 10.6.3 Combo Update from Apple (the 10.6.3 update will get your DVD working again)

- Reboot to the Vostro running OsX 10.6.3

- Copy/replace the info.plist from the snow-vostro.zip to S/L/PreferencePanes/TrackPad.PrefPane/Contents

- Use Kext Helper again to install IOUSBFamily.kext (this got sleep working for me after I installed the Dell webcam module; if you don't have a webcam, you can likely skip this step and sleep will still work)

- Run Kext Utility then Reboot

- For me, the trackpad/keyboard was still not working, I ran the VoodooPS2Controller-0.98-installer.pkg to Snow, then reboot

- Go to S/L/PreferencePanes/ and double click TrackPad.PrefPane & configure trackpad as necessary (hopefully, you can ditch the USB keyboard/mouse now)

- If you get "Trackpad isn't available at this time", something went wrong. Do all over, but don't install the VoodooPS2Controller.kext with kext helper. Simply run the VoodooPS2 0.98 Installer (but you probably will never have the trackpad prefpane and tap-to-click following resume from sleep).

- Run Kext Utility just to be sure

 

Most things should be working, including the VGA port, USB ports, sound, SDHC card reader, wireless, LidSleep, sleep. It doesn't fully shutdown without the help of holding the power button and the Ethernet port isn't working. Haven't tested the PCMCIA (likely NOT working) and firewire (probably IS working according to "About This Mac" hardware description).

 

After resuming from sleep, I have the nagging issues of no tap-to-click on the trackpad depending on whether the trackpad preferencepane was able to be installed/loaded.

[Apollo Cosra]

ok here a litte fix to slove the reboot/shutdown problem.

 

go to S/L/E an remove all NV*.kext and use the old gfx string method:

http://aquamac.proboards.com/index.cgi?act...&thread=509

 

for 8400GS paste something like this:

 

<key>device-properties</key>

<string> 4c0200000100000001000000400200000d00000002010c00d041030a000000000101060000010101

060000007fff04001e00000072006f006d002d007200650076006900730069006f006e0000001e00

0

000383430306773204f70656e474c20456e67696e65205b4546495d22000000400030002c0064006

5

0076006900630065005f00740079007000650000000b000000646973706c6179100000004e005600

4

3004100500000001800000004000000000003000400000000000007000000000e0000006e0061006

d

00650000000b000000646973706c617914000000400030002c006e0061006d006500000012000000

4

e5644412c446973706c61792d41100000006d006f00640065006c0000000a0000003834303067730

e

0000004e00560050004d000000200000000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

0

00000000014000000400031002c006e0061006d0065000000120000004e5644412c446973706c617

9

2d4220000000400031002c0063006f006d00700061007400690062006c00650000000e0000004e56

4

4412c4e564d6163220000005600520041004d002c0074006f00740061006c00730069007a0065000

0

00080000000000002020000000400030002c0063006f006d00700061007400690062006c00650000

0

00e0000004e5644412c4e564d616322000000400031002c006400650076006900630065005f00740

0

79007000650000000b000000646973706c61791c0000006400650076006900630065005f00740079

0

07000650000000f0000004e5644412c506172656e74 </string>

[kludgedean]

Will give this a spin on my Vostro 1700 (4GB RAM, GeForce 8600 dedicated graphics, 1920x1200 resolution), and also test firewire with my focusrite saffire audio interface as well as the builtin audio device of the laptop.

 

Won't be able to test the wireless card that originally came with the laptop, as I swapped it out for a Dell 1390 instead, for all of £10. But if need be I can swap the old card back into it

 

One of the more `universal` distro's floating about nailed the entire laptop perfectly (sound, graphics (QE/QI) upto 10.6.2, but a 10.6.3 update b0rk3d it, and ended up with a kernel panic

[xRotorHead]

ok here a litte fix to slove the reboot/shutdown problem.

 

go to S/L/E an remove all NV*.kext and use the old gfx string method:

http://aquamac.proboards.com/index.cgi?act...&thread=509

 

for 8400GS paste something like this:

 

<key>device-properties</key>

<string> 4c0200000100000001000000400200000d00000002010c00d041030a000000000101060000010101

060000007fff04001e00000072006f006d002d007200650076006900730069006f006e0000001e00

0

000383430306773204f70656e474c20456e67696e65205b4546495d22000000400030002c0064006

5

0076006900630065005f00740079007000650000000b000000646973706c6179100000004e005600

4

3004100500000001800000004000000000003000400000000000007000000000e0000006e0061006

d

00650000000b000000646973706c617914000000400030002c006e0061006d006500000012000000

4

e5644412c446973706c61792d41100000006d006f00640065006c0000000a0000003834303067730

e

0000004e00560050004d000000200000000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

0

00000000014000000400031002c006e0061006d0065000000120000004e5644412c446973706c617

9

2d4220000000400031002c0063006f006d00700061007400690062006c00650000000e0000004e56

4

4412c4e564d6163220000005600520041004d002c0074006f00740061006c00730069007a0065000

0

00080000000000002020000000400030002c0063006f006d00700061007400690062006c00650000

0

00e0000004e5644412c4e564d616322000000400031002c006400650076006900630065005f00740

0

79007000650000000b000000646973706c61791c0000006400650076006900630065005f00740079

0

07000650000000f0000004e5644412c506172656e74 </string>

 

Apollo Cosra,

 

Thanks for the suggestions. Couple of questions: Have you tried this Shutdown/Restart fix on the Vostro 1400? I went to the AquaMac site and couldn't find the efi string for the 8400-M GS video card. Its the 128mb version, so the generic Nvidia 256mb string doesn't exactly apply. How did you find the 8400-M GS efi string?

[veejay]

Hi, I too have a vostro 1400 (nvidia 128mb) and everything works (tap-to-click, scoll in touchpad, sound, mic, camera, multimedia keys, restart, graphics...) except shutdown and sleep. I dont care much for shutdown but how did you enable sleep? Any help will be appreciated.

[petamartt]

hey guys, i need some help.

For some reason i cant create a new topic so im just gonna ask it here.

Im not too bad with computers but i just cant get this.

Firstly im new to this mac on pc thing. i have a dell vostro 1510. i currently have a partitioned hd with vista and 7. i have made a new partition for mac. i looked around in forums and tutorials to figure out how to install mac on pc. i ended up with http://osx86.thefreesuite.com/leo_intel.php

it told me that i needed to down load a iso file called ToH RC2. i downloaded this file and burned the image to dvd. i also checked my cpu using cpu-z. it told me i have sse2 sse3 and sse3s. it had some other things in this section.

so far i thought everything was good, because i had the intel installation and i had the right cpu.

when i restared and booted with cd i pushed f9 i think it was. i read that if you push f9 and then type -v you see an error if it appears. anyway i push f9 and type -v and click enter. i t then goes into all that code and then after about 2 minutes, the code writing goes a little smaller and it goes through what you see in the videos. the problem is, that when it gets to about 4 minutes it stops on a line that says

System/Library/StartupItems': no such file or directory

it then stays on this and nothing else happens. i have tried the installation disk on a older computer and it booted up into the mac setup, however the screen seemed depixelated and had a very bad contrast almost like there was a really bad graphics card in a game. since it worked on a older computer i assume that the problem is that i have the wrong iso file, is their a way to put your computer specs in and you can get the iso file you need or is the problem something else. so can anyone help, anything will be appreciated and just ask for any more information. thankyou in advance.

[xRotorHead]

petamartt,

 

Having an existing Mac (or Hackintosh) to work from is key. If not, getting an initial setup working on your machine is the challenge. You may have luck getting an initial install setup with the iAktos i5 installer. I initially used this to get OsX on my Dell. Yea, its only OsX 10.5.5, all devices may not work perfectly, but its a starting point. There's lots of other more-upadated methods out there for sure. Nonetheless, with the iAktos i5 install disk, i didn't require any other installers or boot loaders to get it going. From that iAktos 10.5.5 setup on a small partition on your HDD, you can follow my guide or what ever one applies to your particular machine specs to get the more updated versions of OsX installed onto other larger partitions of your HDD.

 

One bit of advice, enable AHCI in bios and start with a properly formatted and partitioned HDD; boot into the iAktos or similar Mac installer and, once booted into the installer, go to the top and select 'Disk Utility' and format the entire HDD into at least 3 partitions, with GUID Partition Table (GPT) in 'Options'. Use one partition for your main Mac setup, one for a Mac test partition (ie iAktos), and one for Windows. After its installed, the Chameleon boot loader will allow you to select which OS you want to boot from; if you install Windows to one of the partitions after getting Mac on one of the other partitions, you can easily get back to the Chameleon boot loader by installing and configuring 'EasyBCD' from within Windows to "see" the Mac partition.

 

Good Luck!

[tintinV]

petamartt,

 

Having an existing Mac (or Hackintosh) to work from is key. If not, getting an initial setup working on your machine is the challenge. You may have luck getting an initial install setup with the iAktos i5 installer. I initially used this to get OsX on my Dell. Yea, its only OsX 10.5.5, all devices may not work perfectly, but its a starting point. There's lots of other more-upadated methods out there for sure. Nonetheless, with the iAktos i5 install disk, i didn't require any other installers or boot loaders to get it going. From that iAktos 10.5.5 setup on a small partition on your HDD, you can follow my guide or what ever one applies to your particular machine specs to get the more updated versions of OsX installed onto other larger partitions of your HDD.

 

One bit of advice, enable AHCI in bios and start with a properly formatted and partitioned HDD; boot into the iAktos or similar Mac installer and, once booted into the installer, go to the top and select 'Disk Utility' and format the entire HDD into at least 3 partitions, with GUID Partition Table (GPT) in 'Options'. Use one partition for your main Mac setup, one for a Mac test partition (ie iAktos), and one for Windows. After its installed, the Chameleon boot loader will allow you to select which OS you want to boot from; if you install Windows to one of the partitions after getting Mac on one of the other partitions, you can easily get back to the Chameleon boot loader by installing 'EasyBCD' from within Windows.

 

Good Luck!

 

How did you do to update from 10.5.5 to 10.6 ??? have u tried to make the graphics work editing the com.apple.Boot.plist adding the code <key>GraphicsEnabler</key>

<string>y</string> ?

 

check http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=189960&st=0&p=1286893entry1286893 and tell me what happens.

 

Cheers.

[xRotorHead]

How did you do to update from 10.5.5 to 10.6 ??? have u tried to make the graphics work editing the com.apple.Boot.plist adding the code <key>GraphicsEnabler</key>

<string>y</string> ?

 

check http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=189960&st=0&p=1286893entry1286893 and tell me what happens.

 

Cheers.

 

I installed 10.6.3 from an existing 10.5.5 installation onto another partition of the same HDD using the procedures outlined in my guide above. This procedure can also be done if you take the HDD out of the laptop and connect to a SATA port or USB external connector to an existing OsX installation in another computer. And yes, the GraphicsEnabler flag works with the Geforce 8400 M GS in my Vostro.

[tintinV]

I installed 10.6.3 from an existing 10.5.5 installation onto another partition of the same HDD using the procedures outlined in my guide above. This procedure can also be done if you take the HDD out of the laptop and connect to a SATA port or USB external connector to an existing OsX installation in another computer. And yes, the GraphicsEnabler flag works with the Geforce 8400 M GS in my Vostro.

 

ive done everything as you posted, but the speakers dont work for me (only headphone sound)

any suggestions??

ohh and sleep doesnt work for me

[$kullster]

xRotorHead - excellent guide! I have installed OSX 10.6 on an MSI wind clone and have been dabbling for ages trying to get a good version working on my Vostro 1400.

 

Everything went well just downloading the 10.6.3 update. The only thing not working so far is the track pad - its working but shows as a mouse in system prefs. I'll add the xext voodoohda back in again when the updates finished and the DVD drive is working again.

 

I that fails I'll try to find an updated voodoohda to see if that helps at all.

 

Many thanks for you work - respect!

[xRotorHead]

xRotorHead - excellent guide! I have installed OSX 10.6 on an MSI wind clone and have been dabbling for ages trying to get a good version working on my Vostro 1400.

 

Everything went well just downloading the 10.6.3 update. The only thing not working so far is the track pad - its working but shows as a mouse in system prefs. I'll add the xext voodoohda back in again when the updates finished and the DVD drive is working again.

 

I that fails I'll try to find an updated voodoohda to see if that helps at all.

 

Many thanks for you work - respect!

 

 

I recently had success with the trackpad prefpane (with slightly different install procedures, now reflected in my Version 3 guide above). Try copy/replacing the info.plist from my updated snow-vostro.zip into S/L/PreferencePanes/TrackPad.PrefPane/Contents. Run Kext Utility to be safe, reboot, then go to S/L/PreferencePanes and double click the TrackPad.PrefPane to install in System Preferences.

 

Here's the info.plist by itself.

[tintinV]

I recently had success with the trackpad prefpane (with slightly different install procedures, now reflected in my Version 3 guide above). Try copy/replacing the info.plist from my updated snow-vostro.zip into S/L/PreferencePanes/TrackPad.PrefPane/Contents. Run Kext Utility to be safe, reboot, then go to S/L/PreferencePanes and double click the TrackPad.PrefPane to install in System Preferences.

 

Here's the info.plist by itself.

 

 

 

Thanks for everything xRotorHead. I have almost everything workin on my Inspiron 1420 (the same hardware of your Vostro 1400). But:

 

- Sound on speakers doest work with voodoohda.kext (I have the sigmatel 9228 )

- Sleep and restart dont work (I have the nvidia 8400m gs)

 

Can you help me?

[xRotorHead]

Hi, I too have a vostro 1400 (nvidia 128mb) and everything works (tap-to-click, scoll in touchpad, sound, mic, camera, multimedia keys, restart, graphics...) except shutdown and sleep. I dont care much for shutdown but how did you enable sleep? Any help will be appreciated.

 

 

veejay,

 

Any chance you could post or PM me your voodooHDA.kext that enables the internal mic to work? My current voodooHDA has sound output working, but no functional internal mic for sound input. Got the webcam working for video though.

 

Thanks for everything xRotorHead. I have almost everything workin on my Inspiron 1420 (the same hardware of your Vostro 1400). But:

 

- Sound on speakers doest work with voodoohda.kext (I have the sigmatel 9228 )

- Sleep and restart dont work (I have the nvidia 8400m gs)

 

Can you help me?

 

Not exactly sure your solution. I'd say just keep trying different voodooHDA.kext for sound. You can even try to create your own with the codec dump of the sigmatel 9228. I've never tried such a thing, but I've heard of it being done. I'm thinking about trying it myself to solve a non-functional internal mic issue. But I'm more likely to just keep trying different voodooHDA.kexts til I get it solved. Anyone got one that works for sound output and input (mic)?

 

For sleep and restart - the same story. Just keep trying different combinations of sleepenabler.kext, EvoReboot.kext, OSXRestart.kext, and LidSleep.kext til you figure out what works. My current setup (according to original post) works for Lidsleep, sleep, and restart. Only shutdown doesn't fully work without help of the power button to get the little blue light and fan stopped.

[veejay]

I run os x in 32 bit to get all kexts working. Here is the 9228 patched VoodooHDA. I have speakers, left headphone jack wworking (auto switch works too), bot mic + line in working (no autoswitch here). But you might have to play with the VoodoooHDA settings in the System Preferences to get it working well.

 

veejay,

 

Any chance you could post or PM me your voodooHDA.kext that enables the internal mic to work? My current voodooHDA has sound output working, but no functional internal mic for sound input. Got the webcam working for video though.

 

 

 

Not exactly sure your solution. I'd say just keep trying different voodooHDA.kext for sound. You can even try to create your own with the codec dump of the sigmatel 9228. I've never tried such a thing, but I've heard of it being done. I'm thinking about trying it myself to solve a non-functional internal mic issue. But I'm more likely to just keep trying different voodooHDA.kexts til I get it solved. Anyone got one that works for sound output and input (mic)?

 

For sleep and restart - the same story. Just keep trying different combinations of sleepenabler.kext, EvoReboot.kext, OSXRestart.kext, and LidSleep.kext til you figure out what works. My current setup (according to original post) works for Lidsleep, sleep, and restart. Only shutdown doesn't fully work without help of the power button to get the little blue light and fan stopped.

VoodooHDA.kext.zip

[veejay]

here are the three kexts needed for sleepArchive.zip

 

I run os x in 32 bit to get all kexts working. Here is the 9228 patched VoodooHDA. I have speakers, left headphone jack wworking (auto switch works too), bot mic + line in working (no autoswitch here). But you might have to play with the VoodoooHDA settings in the System Preferences to get it working well.

[tintinV]

I run os x in 32 bit to get all kexts working. Here is the 9228 patched VoodooHDA. I have speakers, left headphone jack wworking (auto switch works too), bot mic + line in working (no autoswitch here). But you might have to play with the VoodoooHDA settings in the System Preferences to get it working well.

 

 

i downloaded your voodoohda.kext and installed it using kext helper.

i have the same sigmatel 9228 sound card.

but for me only works the right output and the mic input.

 

i don't know what to do in VoodooHDA preferences to fix it

any clue to make my speakers work?

i've tried almost everything

 

(i had it working under leopard last year using applehda patcher, but i get kernel panics trying to use that metod in sl)

[tintinV]

veejay,

 

Any chance you could post or PM me your voodooHDA.kext that enables the internal mic to work? My current voodooHDA has sound output working, but no functional internal mic for sound input. Got the webcam working for video though.

 

 

 

Not exactly sure your solution. I'd say just keep trying different voodooHDA.kext for sound. You can even try to create your own with the codec dump of the sigmatel 9228. I've never tried such a thing, but I've heard of it being done. I'm thinking about trying it myself to solve a non-functional internal mic issue. But I'm more likely to just keep trying different voodooHDA.kexts til I get it solved. Anyone got one that works for sound output and input (mic)?

 

For sleep and restart - the same story. Just keep trying different combinations of sleepenabler.kext, EvoReboot.kext, OSXRestart.kext, and LidSleep.kext til you figure out what works. My current setup (according to original post) works for Lidsleep, sleep, and restart. Only shutdown doesn't fully work without help of the power button to get the little blue light and fan stopped.

 

xRotorHead

 

Thanks again, i've been trying with differents kexts for my speakers but no sucess.

 

Sleep worked great with the included IOUSBFamily.kext but i realized that the camera did'nt work with this kext installed.

 

Also i make work the trackpad (scrolling) installing the VoodooPS2Controller-0.98-installer.pkg WITHOUT the trackpad option, then copying the VoodooPS2Trackpad.kext (that comes inside VoodooPS2Controller.kext you added in snow-vostro) to the VoodooPS2Controller.kext in the S/L/E folder and replacing the Info.plist as you wrote.

 

But i have a problem: sometimes the keyboard and trackpad stop working and i have to reboot. I don't know if this is because of my fix or the VoodooPS2Controller-0.98-installer.pkg.

[veejay]

i dont know what to suggest further but make sure you have removed the conflicting applehda kexts. i also run rc4 chameleon and it works. this version is the most painless audio kext i have ever used. by the way download and use pfix for better permission fixing and faster booting.

 

i downloaded your voodoohda.kext and installed it using kext helper.

i have the same sigmatel 9228 sound card.

but for me only works the right output and the mic input.

 

i don't know what to do in VoodooHDA preferences to fix it

any clue to make my speakers work?

i've tried almost everything

 

(i had it working under leopard last year using applehda patcher, but i get kernel panics trying to use that metod in sl)

pfix3.0.mpkg.zip

[$kullster]

The 10.6.3 update killed the system so I am re-installing again using version 4 of your guide - fingers crossed...

[$kullster]

Install worked apart from trackpad failing (works but erratic) camera fails probably due to IOUSBFamily.kext how can I remove this? On reboot KP every time so I booted using ignore kext cache and it worked fine. In verbose mode seemed to be something to do with Voodoo.ps2. So installed and ran Pfix3 that seemed to fix the issue. So just need to fix the trackpad. Note the trackpad worked fine under the Version 2 guide.

 

Getting there...

[tintinV]

i dont know what to suggest further but make sure you have removed the conflicting applehda kexts. i also run rc4 chameleon and it works. this version is the most painless audio kext i have ever used. by the way download and use pfix for better permission fixing and faster booting.

 

 

pfix3.0.mpkg.zip

 

Thanks for the help veejay.

I had installed the pfix, and i had the applehda.kext deleted but my speakers still not working.

i'm freaking outttt.

I'm gonna buy a macbook lol.

I have tried lots of voodoohda.kext that say they work with the STAC9228X but they appear to work for everyone but me.

Could be any chance that this issue is because i have Snow Leopard in spanish?

I don't know what else to think, is the only difference. Anyway the kexts should work no matter the language.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

Install worked apart from trackpad failing (works but erratic) camera fails probably due to IOUSBFamily.kext how can I remove this? On reboot KP every time so I booted using ignore kext cache and it worked fine. In verbose mode seemed to be something to do with Voodoo.ps2. So installed and ran Pfix3 that seemed to fix the issue. So just need to fix the trackpad. Note the trackpad worked fine under the Version 2 guide.

 

Getting there...

 

You can find the original IOUSBFamily.kext in the retail DVD in the path System/Library/Extensions, delete the one u installed, then install the original with kext helper and repair permissions with kext utility. It worked for me.

 

What do u mean with the trackpad worked fine? do you have scrolling? can you see it in system preferences?

[$kullster]

The trackpad worked but no scrolling or double tap - it appeared as a mouse not track pad. Following deleting the IOUSBFamily.kext and reinstalling from the retail DVD version I get constant KPs so trying to re-install again.

[SoulAssassyn]

wish someone would write up one of these 10.6.3 guides for use with an X58A-UD3R board. Having some major issues.

[tintinV]

Someone has the problem when you have been using the keyboard a lot and then suddenly it disconnets and so the trackpad?

I have to restart using a usb mouse, and if i dont have one i have to press the shutdown button.

It happens a lot to me , including when i was writing a reply it happened twice (i had to restart twice).

This happens to me with the Kext and the pkg posted by xRotorHead

 

To know if you have this issue open TextEdit and start to press lots of keys, use the caps lock lots of times and it will happen.

i think this is a bug inside of the voodoops2keyboard.kext.

i haven't figured it out but im almost sure it's because of the caps lock configuration in the info.plist inside of the kext.

 

if someone finds a solution, please let me know.

 

(sorry i tried to don't use capital letters to don't have to restart again)