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So I returned my MacBook yesterday...


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#1
bofors

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I just read this post at ArsTechnica and thought people here might also find it interesting:

So I returned my MacBook yesterday...

I ran the python script outlined in the Ars review and watched the CPU temp/speed with the CoreDuoTemp application. I have a 1.83 model but during the test I couldn't get the thing to actually run at that speed for more than few seconds. 

The first test I did was on battery power only. I set the energy saving preferences to best performance hoping it would run at 1.83 while the CPU was pegged. It did not. The CPU oscillated between 1500 and 1667 with temps from the low 80s to low 90s. 

So I tested it plugged in. I made sure their was no airflow restriction, ambient temperature was 75F. I let the thing run for three hours with the CPU pegged. The CPU temp was in the upper 80s and the speed was 1667 with an occasional drop to 1500.

Now is it just me or does this seem like a problem? Shouldn't my laptop run at the advertised speed? Is it unreasonable to assume a 1.83Ghz computer would be capable of running at 1.83Ghz for a sustained period? I took the thing to an Apple Store in Dallas.

I explained to the "Genius" what was happening. I told him about the python script and showed him the CoreDuoTemp application. The first thing he said was, "Well, we can't trust what this application is telling us since it's not designed by Apple." Fine, I said. Load up your Apple Approved CPU Utility and I'll demonstrate what's happening. He didn't have one. I explained the problem again.

I told him my MacBook wouldn't run at the advertised speed, that it throttled the CPU because it got too hot. He explained to me this was "normal behavior", that computers throttle down their CPUs sometimes when they are under 100% load. I said I could understand this if it was set to preserve battery power but in this case it happened when it was plugged in. The "Genius" said depending on the application requesting CPU resources it may scale the CPU down anyway, even if it's plugged in. So I asked him what would happen if I was doing a video conversion or encoding an audio file. He said it would probably behave the same way. What? I asked him what the point was of purchasing a 1.83Ghz computer if the processor would never run at that speed. I asked if it was unreasonable to expect my PC to run at the maximum rate when doing audio encoding. He suggested we perform a test on a floor model and see what happened.

He downloaded the CoreDuoTemp app on a 2.0Ghz MB, started up three or four Chess games and made the computer play itself. The CPU went to 100%, the temperature shot up to 91C and the processor throttled down to 1667. BINGO! There's my problem! This MacBook had the same issue. "Normal behavior" I was told. I argued with this guy FOR AN HOUR until he finally said I could exchange my 1.83 for a new one or return the one I purchased. He even said he'd try to get the manager to waive the restocking fee.

So the "Genius" left for a few minutes and was replaced by "Genius Manager". "Genius Manager" said he heard I was having a "special problem" and that he was here to help. I went through the entire explanation again with this guy. "Normal behavior" he said, that's what happens when the CPU goes to 100%. The CPUs have to throttle to keep the machine cool.

He said I did not have a heat issue, that a real heat issue would be like something he'd seen before where the case of a MacBook Pro actually warped (Apple replaced this laptop). He then said that if I was doing CPU intensive work I was probably in the "wrong machine" and should consider upgrading to a MacBook Pro. What? Are you kidding me? Aren't the specs of the MacBook nearly identical to the MacBook Pro? He mumbled something about "bus speed".

After talking to "Genius Manager" for 45 minutes he said I could swap my 1.83 for a new one and that he'd waive the restocking fee. Of course every time I hear the words "restocking fee" I get more agitated. I told him I was thinking about just returning the MacBook in exchange for my cash and waiting to buy a MB when Apple made a reliable product. "Restocking fee" he said! He wouldn't waive it if I just wanted to return it.

To make a long story short I exchanged my 1.83 for a new one. The new one actually runs at 1.83. It runs at 1.83 under 100% CPU load while running on the battery and while plugged in. My new MacBook RUNS AT THE ADVERTISED SPEED.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but aren't their laws against making false claims in advertising? If this issue is widespread and Apple keeps up this charade they are going to find themselves with another class action lawsuit.

My suspicion is that the initial run of MacBooks (I bought mine the day after they came out) had some production problems. My new one does get hot but it's not as bad as the one I returned.

The manager replaced my MacBook because he couldn't win the argument. But how many people who aren't technically competent have been turned away that have genuine heat problems? How many people are lead to believe this is "normal behavior"?

My experience with the Apple Store was poor. Despite the fact that the people were polite there is no excuse for what I had to go through. I was there for TWO HOURS. Has anyone else had a similar experience?

http://episteme.arst.../m/332001339731

#2
Technobob

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I hope Apple gets all the bugs worked out before I replace my T40 Thinkpad in 2 years. I would hate to go from a rock solid laptop to a piece of junk that can't even run at spec.

#3
bofors

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Two points.

1.) Apple users expect extremely high quality products and simple will not settle for "good enough". The result is that Apple products get scrutinized at a level which is much higher than really any other manufacturer. So, when people complain about Apple problems it is important to keep it in prespective.

2.) Apple's new products are somewhat notorious for having minor, albeit annoying, issues like those beign ascribed to the MacBook and MacBook Pro. Many Apple veterans will avoid buying the first version of a new product and instead wait a few months for "Revision B".

#4
bofors

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So I returned my MacBook yesterday...

http://episteme.arst.../m/332001339731


The thread at Ars Technica from which I copied the original post has itself gotten quite heated, definitely worth looking over.

#5
-TiLT-

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Just a joke: As far as I remember, Apple bought a lot of 1,6 ghz processors, that they couldnt sell because they released the MBP at 1,8 ghz. Maybe they found a way to sell these processors :) You know what I mean :happymac:

#6
nevermind1331

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Just a joke: As far as I remember, Apple bought a lot of 1,6 ghz processors, that they couldnt sell because they released the MBP at 1,8 ghz. Maybe they found a way to sell these processors :) You know what I mean :happymac:



wouldnt surprise me if some macbooks had 1.67s in them and apple had them overclocked to 1.83, which is causing heat problems, which drops the cpu speed.

conspiracy perhaps?

damn you apple!



(o well, my imac temp never hits close to 50, i guess they arent all bad)

#7
Severnya

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HaHaHa

Overclocked Apple's - a first.

Im still awaiting the MacBook I ordered. I dont care HOW it runs - as long AS it runs. I can return it in 12months if it is "faulty" :happymac:

#8
bigboss

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wouldnt surprise me if some macbooks had 1.67s in them and apple had them overclocked to 1.83, which is causing heat problems, which drops the cpu speed.

conspiracy perhaps?

damn you apple!
(o well, my imac temp never hits close to 50, i guess they arent all bad)


that seems very plausible and may infact be true but i think it would be better if they just used the 1.66 chips in the mini. then they wouldnt need to overclock them.

oh and i REALLY want to buy a macbook... but im not going to until they upgrade that damned gma.. i know its not a gamer's laptop but still.. it costs a grand total of $100 - $150 (which id gladly pay) to put a gf 7400 go in there and youd sure attract a lot of customers. its already been publicized that the mb is faster than the mbp. throw in a nice mainstream gpu. obviously not as fast as the x1600 but the mbp has an underclocked gpu and a 7400 would be fine with me! hell you can even play HL2 on high with a 7400!

#9
John the Geek

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HaHaHa

Overclocked Apple's - a first.


Where have you been? People have been over-clocking Macs since the G3. I've personally over-clocked several G4s including my old G4 Cube. All it takes is some know-how and a solder iron.

:D

#10
Takuro

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Apple seems to be having a lot of problems with their new processors in the Macbooks, such as overheating and lower-than-advertised processor speeds. I can't help but remember all the Mac commercials attacking Intel's hot CPU temperatures. Now in a world full of notebooks with Intel-based processors, Apple seems to be the only one who can't keep their machines cool.

Do you think some guys at Intel tampered with something to get the last laugh? :D

But in all seriousness, if the iMac have no such CPU problems, I hope the Mac Pro runs well too.

#11
bigboss

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Do you think some guys at Intel tampered with something to get the last laugh? :P


If Intel did, Apple deserved it :D

Apple has always arrogantly brandished its products as being superior and PCs as being slow and buggy when neither of those statements are particularily true. Also, being critical of your present supplier in the past could mean trouble... but hey! Business is business!

About the Intel CPU temps on Apple hardware, have you seen the Samsung X60? It's got comparable specs to the MBP (X1600, DDR2 667, T2300-T2600, SATA-150 HDS @ 7200 RPM, 23.9mm thick (thinner than the MBP!!!!)). It does not have *ANY* heating issues.. kind of funny if you ask me :lol:

#12
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If Intel did, Apple deserved it :D

Apple has always arrogantly brandished its products as being superior and PCs as being slow and buggy when neither of those statements are particularily true. Also, being critical of your present supplier in the past could mean trouble... but hey! Business is business!


In the past Apple has been the superior system, has often been significantly faster than the competition, and typically much more stable.

While I'm sad to see the PPC go, because it has the potential to wipe the floor with any X86 processor, to do it would require a heatsink that would make the MacBook Pro about as thick as a typical briefcase. So Intel it is, and so far I'm quite impressed knowing the best has yet to come.

Stability? Windows ME anyone? Sorry. You're just plain stupid if you think that anything Apple has ever release was that buggy. How about XP pre-SP1? Or XP security pre-SP2? You have an odd perspective of how Apple has been worse at just about anything. When was "Longshot" supposed to ship? Oh sorry, I forgot that Apple's released 5 major OS updates in the time MS couldn't release a single one. Maybe two if you count SP2.

Tell me about all of the Dell batteries I've sent back or scrapped (over 20+ so far) because they die or wont hold a charge for more than a half an hour. The Dell LCD mounts/brackets that break like cheap plastic, What about the crappy Gateway optical drives that keep f*cking breaking or the front panel falls off like a cheap used car part.

There are times when one form of technology is better than others, but to claim that Apple has always been false about those things show how much you don't know about the platform. I've been using many brands of computers regularly for about 7+ years now and I can tell you despite the ups and down of any platform (including Linux) that Apple wins out overall... every damn time.

So I'm typing this on a Mac, not because I'm a freaky cult loyalist, but because I get it... I've seen the whole pie, and I chose my slice wisely.

About the Intel CPU temps on Apple hardware, have you seen the Samsung X60? It's got comparable specs to the MBP (X1600, DDR2 667, T2300-T2600, SATA-150 HDS @ 7200 RPM, 23.9mm thick (thinner than the MBP!!!!)). It does not have *ANY* heating issues.. kind of funny if you ask me :lol:


You have one there with a temp gun on it? How do you know it isn't having/going to have the same or similar issues? You're creating a false statement based on no factual evidence.

Even if that were the case, and everything is hunky-dorey over on Samsung-land, How do the Samsung pro towers compare to the Apple Quad G5s? If you're going to compare companies, do it wisely.


EDIT:

OK, OK, I've calmed down. I'm allergic to stupid and it sets me off some times. It shouldn't matter to me if someone want to view Apple products as "arrogant" yada yada... in the end I have my toy and I enjoy it every time I have to sit an a sub-standard piece of {censored} and realize just why my main machines has an Apple logo on the back. Yeah, they have their problems, but tit for tat I'll take my Mac over anything else I've touched.

So whatever... move along, nothing to see here.

#13
Takuro

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Stability? Windows ME anyone? Sorry. You're just plain stupid if you think that anything Apple has ever release was that buggy. How about XP pre-SP1? Or XP security pre-SP2? You have an odd perspective of how Apple has been worse at just about anything. When was "Longshot" supposed to ship? Oh sorry, I forgot that Apple's released 5 major OS updates in the time MS couldn't release a single one. Maybe two if you count SP2.


Stability software-wise is rock solid on in OSX without a doubt. I don't think anybody is dumb enough to say otherwise. However, hardware-wise, things aren't so "peachy." Anything that warps as an effect of its own generated heat doesn't deserve to make it on the shelves. That's why I'm using the best of both worlds, with a more stable Intel based pc. (See sig :))

Of course this sort of problem happens with other companies. Apple is by far not the worst, even in light of the thermal paste issues and video card issues, when it comes to hardware problems. However, they *do* advertise themselves as being somewhat superior and impeccable compared to others, so they deserve a bit of friendly criticism to make sure they really roll out products that meet expectations.

Think of it this way: if they didn't have such a great reputation in the first place, people wouldn't be criticizing their recent computers. If a Gateway had problems with its hard drive, it probably wouldn't make any front-page covers because expectations aren't as high. That's saying something.

#14
bigboss

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Im sorry.. I forgot I was dealing with idiots who couldn't read. That does seem to be a problem :P

Stability? Windows ME anyone? Sorry. You're just plain stupid if you think that anything Apple has ever release was that buggy. How about XP pre-SP1? Or XP security pre-SP2? You have an odd perspective of how Apple has been worse at just about anything. When was "Longshot" supposed to ship? Oh sorry, I forgot that Apple's released 5 major OS updates in the time MS couldn't release a single one. Maybe two if you count SP2.


I never said Apple's OS releases was unstable, I was just challenging the statement made by Apple that Windows PCs are buggy. Windows ME was just one OS release, why dont you talk about Windows 2000, XP (its not as bad as your idiot mind thinks it is) etc. etc. etc. You want to talk about bad OS releases? What about 10.0 which was so poorly received that they offered the upgrade to 10.1 for free! It's also a well known fact that whenever you buy software/hardware at release, there are many issues with it (i.e. The Macbook Pro :))

You want to criticize Vista? Even Windows Vista is shaping up to be a pretty good release. If you think its a resource hogger, the recommended system requirements for full Aero Glass are a 1GHz or better processor, 512MB or more ram, 40GB or more HD space, Direct X9 GPU w/ 64+MB of memory. Somehow that doesn't strike me as being a resource intensive operating system. Also, if you read, Windows Vista 64-bit is supposed to be a huge improvement in terms of OS Security. A special security feature ensures that system files load at random (1 in 256) memory offsets at every system boot. Also, the X64 version will only allow you to install optimized drivers in order to get the full performance out of your machine.

Yes Vista and Microsoft is not the greatest company, I never said it was. All I'm saying is that Apple isn't as perfect as Mac users like to think it is. The reason why MS (despite Windows having a billion dollar backing) keeps on delaying Vista is because of the backwards compatibility built into the OS and I think that it is something MS should consider dropping. Yes, ME was a bad release and Apple has released 5 versions of OS X but Apple and MS have a different software development schedule. MS believes in one major revision of the OS every few years and adding a few service packs to add some features/make it more secure etc. Whereas, Apple believes in releasing a smaller revision in a shorter time frame.

While I'm sad to see the PPC go, because it has the potential to wipe the floor with any X86 processor, to do it would require a heatsink that would make the MacBook Pro about as thick as a typical briefcase. So Intel it is, and so far I'm quite impressed knowing the best has yet to come.


Then youre a moron. Please explain why a T2500 MB in Final Cut Studio, could rival a Dual-Core 2Ghz G5? It's because the PPC chips while having the advantage in architecture were power hungry chips. Intel chips (as Steve said) deliver more performance per watt than any PPC chip ever created.

Tell me about all of the Dell batteries I've sent back or scrapped (over 20+ so far) because they die or wont hold a charge for more than a half an hour. The Dell LCD mounts/brackets that break like cheap plastic, What about the crappy Gateway optical drives that keep f*cking breaking or the front panel falls off like a cheap used car part.


Once again.. you're a moron. My Dell laptop has survived for 4 years with one 6-cell battery. It always manages to charge up to full capacity and I can use it for 2 - 2.5 hours on my Dell Inspiron 8200. Do also consider the price difference between Dell and Apple hardware. (remember, do it wisely :lol:)

There are times when one form of technology is better than others, but to claim that Apple has always been false about those things show how much you don't know about the platform. I've been using many brands of computers regularly for about 7+ years now and I can tell you despite the ups and down of any platform (including Linux) that Apple wins out overall... every damn time.


That's your opinion, not a fact. Like you said, stick to the facts please :)

You have one there with a temp gun on it? How do you know it isn't having/going to have the same or similar issues? You're creating a false statement based on no factual evidence.

Even if that were the case, and everything is hunky-dorey over on Samsung-land, How do the Samsung pro towers compare to the Apple Quad G5s? If you're going to compare companies, do it wisely.
EDIT:


For X60 temps, check this site: http://www.notebookr...iew=Samsung X60

But before you call me a liar, I did see the temperatures, whereas you are idly speculating. Also, the comment about Samsung towers is kind of stupid since we are talking about the MacBook and the MacBook pro series, not the towers. We are not comparing companies here. So, in your own poetic words : do it wisely :D

Keep in mind that the model is a T2300 but T2600 models are also offered.

So I'm typing this on a Mac, not because I'm a freaky cult loyalist, but because I get it... I've seen the whole pie, and I chose my slice wisely.


Good for you :(

#15
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Windows ME was just one OS release, why dont you talk about Windows 2000, XP (its not as bad as your idiot mind thinks it is) etc. etc. etc.


I must have imagined all those support calls I had to deal with. My idiot mind tends to remember those sily little things called "factual acounts."

You want to talk about bad OS releases? What about 10.0 which was so poorly received that they offered the upgrade to 10.1 for free!


10.0 was a transitional OS. That is why it shipped with OS 9... so you could reboot into the important stuff. Was it flawed? Yes. I never said it wasn't. My idiot mind just pointed out that MS has been worse... Perhaps not so blatantly, but if they had been, maybe ME would have shipped with a copy of 98 for the important stuff... Like everything.

You want to criticize Vista? Even Windows Vista is shaping up to be a pretty good release.


Right, that's why they've cut 60% of it's features so far. I love the quote from the MS employee at the Mini Microsoft blog that said he wouldn't buy Vista with someone else's money.

If you think its a resource hogger, the recommended system requirements for full Aero Glass are a 1GHz or better processor, 512MB or more ram, 40GB or more HD space, Direct X9 GPU w/ 64+MB of memory. Somehow that doesn't strike me as being a resource intensive operating system. Also, if you read, Windows Vista 64-bit is supposed to be a huge improvement in terms of OS Security. A special security feature ensures that system files load at random (1 in 256) memory offsets at every system boot. Also, the X64 version will only allow you to install optimized drivers in order to get the full performance out of your machine.


So it's almost Mac OS X... Glass/Quartz... Ha, I love how they aren't even being subtle about stealing anymore.

Then youre a moron. Please explain why a T2500 MB in Final Cut Studio, could rival a Dual-Core 2Ghz G5? It's because the PPC chips while having the advantage in architecture were power hungry chips. Intel chips (as Steve said) deliver more performance per watt than any PPC chip ever created.


Which is why Apple isn't using the best current PPC chips anymore. Motorola does have faster chips, Apple just stopped using them to make the Intel machines more impressive. But since Motorola has the XBox 360, PS3, and the Nintendo Revolution to worry about, Apple's not such a big customer anymore.

I also love how different opinion = moron. Good call on that one.

Once again.. you're a moron. My Dell laptop has survived for 4 years with one 6-cell battery. It always manages to charge up to full capacity and I can use it for 2 - 2.5 hours on my Dell Inspiron 8200. Do also consider the price difference between Dell and Apple hardware. (remember, do it wisely :lol:)


This illustrates your 1-dimentional thought process beautifully. You think that your "I have a good battery" story somehow overshadows the 24 or so Dell batteries I've had to toss because they have failed much sooner than they should have. If I order 100 laptops, and in the next 14 months about 1/4 of them fail, I must be a moron. Again, good call.

That's your opinion, not a fact. Like you said, stick to the facts please :)


Actually, as you don't have every Samsung notebook running in your basement and I don't have a list of phone numbers for every happy MBP user who doesn't have a problem and never had to gripe online about it then we're both largely running on speculation and opinion here. The good news is we're allowed to disagree. Maybe the 6 Samsung notebook users just don't know they have a problem yet? or they can't get online to complain about it? Anything could mess up your facts.

Also, the comment about Samsung towers is kind of stupid since we are talking about the MacBook and the MacBook pro series, not the towers. We are not comparing companies here. So, in your own poetic words : do it wisely :D


:blink:

Uhm, no you said:

If Intel did, Apple deserved it

Apple has always arrogantly brandished its products as being superior and PCs as being slow and buggy when neither of those statements are particularily true.


Which was about Apple as a company. At least as I see it, being a moron and all.

;)

#16
mac sussed

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Can you not see that you are a brand cult loyalist pc basher? Because anyone reading can.

#17
John the Geek

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Can you not see that you are a brand cult loyalist pc basher? Because anyone reading can.


Based on?... I use all of the above. Willingly too. Call me what you want, I really don't care.

Do I get to label you as a Win-Bigot now?

#18
bofors

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I seems pretty clear that this thread has degenerated into a name calling flame match.

I would like to just to drop it and move on to something else.

I going to request that this thread be locked.

#19
other

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