Cedega OSX Petition

[sportman]

As most of you already know Cedega is made by transgaming. Cedega allows linux users to run windows games that have directx in wine without emulation. This seems to be a great solution for mac and its gaming issues. I have contacted them several times and have not even gotten a clear answer if they are considering creating it. Lets get them really thinking about it sign this petition HERE

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/c4osx/petition.html

[A Nonny Moose]

The only issue with Mac games is that DirectX isn't ported over. Maybe someone needs to work on that issue instead of working on issues surrounding wine (which emulates between PPC and X86 codes, no matter how many "Wine Is Not an Emulator" comments anyone makes). That's the real issue with gaming for both Mac and Linux.

[bigboss]

The only issue with Mac games is that DirectX isn't ported over. Maybe someone needs to work on that issue instead of working on issues surrounding wine (which emulates between PPC and X86 codes, no matter how many "Wine Is Not an Emulator" comments anyone makes). That's the real issue with gaming for both Mac and Linux.

 

why do you want virtualization game software if you can just run windows on a mac? it'll be faster. for all of you complaining about not wanting to boot just to play a game, deal with it (and dont be so damn lazy too ).

[Pu7o]

The only issue with Mac games is that DirectX isn't ported over. Maybe someone needs to work on that issue instead of working on issues surrounding wine (which emulates between PPC and X86 codes, no matter how many "Wine Is Not an Emulator" comments anyone makes). That's the real issue with gaming for both Mac and Linux.

 

What does PPC have to do with running Windows games on an Intel-based Mac?

[A Nonny Moose]

The issue is running Windows stuff through wine. Wine is under OS X code (PPC and Intel) as Darwine, which needs some form of emulation between processors.

[sportman]

ok, there is no emulation for intel macs. That is why wine on intel macs would be full speed as both are x86 proccesors. I could see if there was a ppc version that would require emulation through qemu or something which i know they were working on.

[A Nonny Moose]

why do you want virtualization game software if you can just run windows on a mac? it'll be faster. for all of you complaining about not wanting to boot just to play a game, deal with it (and dont be so damn lazy too ).

 

It's the fatal flaw of the Linux users in that they believe EVERYTHING must be free as in beer. Running Windows on a Mac requires buying a Win XP install disk, therby forfeiting the "free as in beer" ideal. Of course, many users on Windows and Mac have the same idea, so it isn't just tied to Linux (although they seem to be the worst about it and it's why commercial software doesn't normally do Linux).

 

Now yes, there are tons of great free things on the web (GIMP being the primary example), but I bought MS Office because I couldn't stand any of the free office replacements (AppleWorks doesn't count here because it's technically $79, even if it comes bundled with your Mac). There has to come a point, though, where you have to go out into the real world and find that not-free software replacements (for your free software) aren't actually that bad.

[Gone Like The Wind]

why do you want virtualization game software if you can just run windows on a mac? it'll be faster. for all of you complaining about not wanting to boot just to play a game, deal with it (and dont be so damn lazy too ).

 

Actually I have found many games run faster with cedega than windows xp with same hardware. Just a thought and I am not the only one to experience this either.

 

It's the fatal flaw of the Linux users in that they believe EVERYTHING must be free as in beer.

 

Thanks for the FUD... Linux users are more than willing to pay for software if its quality not garbage. This is the fatal misunderstanding that we dont like to pay for things we will if they are quality.

 

I do think Apple makes a great product but it is not viable for me to own all apple computers. I run enough computers that if they were apple I could not afford to pay attention. I do however love Apple products and love my G5. I will continue to run linux for as long as I can see though I love the OS and its great as well.

 

Maybe if you pulled out of the grey area you would see that its not what you think. Sure we love free software but not all software can be free and that is well understood.

 

And the paradox of ISV's not porting applications to linux has nothing to do with people not buying software it boils down to the same hard math as Mac we are in the same boat here. Mac users and Linux users are a small marketshare. For companies to port their applications or games to either platform it takes a huge risk to do so. This is why they are not there it has nothing to do with people wanting free stuff its all about the marketshare. If you think about the marketshare there is a finite number of people that would use X product but when your targeting a 4-5% marketshare its kind of rough to be profitable in that regard.... at least when they think about Windows users and how many would buy X product vs Mac/Linux buying the same X product its a no brainer Windows is going to max out the profits.

 

[A Nonny Moose]

Thanks for the FUD... Linux users are more than willing to pay for software if its quality not garbage. This is the fatal misunderstanding that we dont like to pay for things we will if they are quality.

 

Any links to quality not-free Linux software that Linux users are actually buying? I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to see one.

 

I do think Apple makes a great product but it is not viable for me to own all apple computers. I run enough computers that if they were apple I could not afford to pay attention. I do however love Apple products and love my G5. I will continue to run linux for as long as I can see though I love the OS and its great as well.

 

Maybe if you pulled out of the grey area you would see that its not what you think. Sure we love free software but not all software can be free and that is well understood.

 

I think Apple makes good stuff too and the Mac platform suits all of my current needs. It can even run *nix apps through Fink, so I have no need to run any Linux apps via Linux (mainly GIMP, which is a good piece of software).

 

And the paradox of ISV's not porting applications to linux has nothing to do with people not buying software it boils down to the same hard math as Mac we are in the same boat here. Mac users and Linux users are a small marketshare. For companies to port their applications or games to either platform it takes a huge risk to do so. This is why they are not there it has nothing to do with people wanting free stuff its all about the marketshare. If you think about the marketshare there is a finite number of people that would use X product but when your targeting a 4-5% marketshare its kind of rough to be profitable in that regard.... at least when they think about Windows users and how many would buy X product vs Mac/Linux buying the same X product its a no brainer Windows is going to max out the profits.

 

 

It has everything to do with a profit margin, not market share. Given the sheer number of computer manufacturers and home builders, having a 5-10% marketshare isn't really that bad of a number. In terms of millions, I think the number of OS X users was estimated at 7 million. I mean, what's the fun in leaving 7 million customers out in the cold and not allowing their money to flow into the coffers of a software company? Several software manufacturers do it (mainly citing "such a small audience"), but a goodly amount don't (especially the heavy hitters like MS Office and Adobe, both of which produce good quality software). These heavy hitters aren't present on Linux, mainly because Linux users won't go for a paid version when there is a free as in beer version out there.

[bluedragon1971]

The only issue with Mac games is that DirectX isn't ported over. Maybe someone needs to work on that issue instead of working on issues surrounding wine (which emulates between PPC and X86 codes, no matter how many "Wine Is Not an Emulator" comments anyone makes). That's the real issue with gaming for both Mac and Linux.

 

Thanks for proving that you don't know the first thing about what Wine (and Darwine) is or how it works. Cedega is an extension of Wine that is basically a port of DirectX. Wine and Darwine themselves are not emulators at all, they are ports of the Win32 API to UNIX based platforms. Wine has absolutely nothing to do with X86 or PPC emulation. Darwine now has two branches, the Intel version which works fairly well, and includes no emulation layer, and the PPC version that isn't working quite yet, which will translate x86 calls to PPC so PPC users will be able to run x86 Windows software.

[A Nonny Moose]

Thanks for proving that you don't know the first thing about what Wine (and Darwine) is or how it works. Cedega is an extension of Wine that is basically a port of DirectX.

 

It isn't truy a port, though. That would imply some amount of cooperation from MS, which isn't happening. It's a copy job.

 

Wine and Darwine themselves are not emulators at all, they are ports of the Win32 API to UNIX based platforms. Wine has absolutely nothing to do with X86 or PPC emulation. Darwine now has two branches, the Intel version which works fairly well, and includes no emulation layer, and the PPC version that isn't working quite yet, which will translate x86 calls to PPC so PPC users will be able to run x86 Windows software.

 

Again, copy job, but let's not fight about semantics.

 

And even Wine itself admits issues with non-Intel processors. To be fair though, earlier on, they do admit there *shouldn't* be a hit for running programs, but there are caveats:

 

Windows applications that do not make system calls will run just as fast as on Windows (no more no less).

 

But for those applications that do work and from a purely subjective point of view, performance is good. There is no obvious performance loss, except for some slow graphics due to unoptimized Wine code and X11 driver translation performance loss (which can be a problem sometimes, though).

 

So subjectively, performance is good. SUBJECTIVELY. Also, benchmark programs won't work under Wine (interesting coincidence). So until objective data is presented, there isn't a way to truly tell how much of a loss/gain is incurred under Wine (if there is any loss/gain). Subjectively, it's pretty close, though, but the Wine people are falsely advertising by saying "100%" without any proof whatsoever.

 

Well, it is true that Wine only runs on Intel's x86 processors. Unfortunately it will also require quite a lot of work before it runs on other processor architectures.

 

and then goes on to admit there WILL NEED TO BE EMULATION for currently unsupported architectures to become supported.

 

Unfortunately, any kind of Mac wine layer HAS TO ADDRESS PowerPC to X86 issues, and you've even admitted so (albeit, they are doing this via two applications, which is an interesting approach). For Mactels, the problem just isn't there. However, most Mac users are on PPC Macs (and this will continue for quite some time), and thus would be working via a PPC-X86 translation. This implies a performace hit, as with any emulation layer, regardless of any "Wine is not an emulator" jargon you can throw. This is the focal point of the entire issue with asking for "things that work under Wine" to be ported over. Unless it becomes optimized for the majority of Mac users (who are on PPC machines), you're going to screw over and alienate the majority of Mac users (who are on PPC machines).

 

Yes, this is the OSX86 forum, but asking for something that only works under x86 is a surefire way to {censored} off the majority of Mac users.

[Gone Like The Wind]

It isn't truy a port, though. That would imply some amount of cooperation from MS, which isn't happening. It's a copy job.

Again, copy job, but let's not fight about semantics.

 

Unfortunately, any kind of Mac wine layer HAS TO ADDRESS PowerPC to X86 issues, and you've even admitted so (albeit, they are doing this via two applications, which is an interesting approach). For Mactels, the problem just isn't there. However, most Mac users are on PPC Macs (and this will continue for quite some time), and thus would be working via a PPC-X86 translation. This implies a performace hit, as with any emulation layer, regardless of any "Wine is not an emulator" jargon you can throw. This is the focal point of the entire issue with asking for "things that work under Wine" to be ported over. Unless it becomes optimized for the majority of Mac users (who are on PPC machines), you're going to screw over and alienate the majority of Mac users (who are on PPC machines).

 

Yes, this is the OSX86 forum, but asking for something that only works under x86 is a surefire way to {censored} off the majority of Mac users.

 

Ok first of all a port does not require the author of the original product to be helping. Its being ported through MS's own documentation and so forth. Get a clue

 

And furthermore demanding that WineHQ address the PPC version is a surefire way to {censored} them off. Try going to irc.freenode.net and tell them what they have to do. You seem to forget that these people do wine for free it is not charged for. Wine is a free and open project dont be a ass.

 

Yep you succeeded in creating a surefire way of pissing me off by demanding that people do what _you_ want with their free time.

 

Anyway Wine has a huge potential to work on x86 versions of OSX and not PPC quite as easy just from the nature of the way PPC and x86 apps are made... To do it yes wine has to emulate x86 on the PPC and thats not a easy task

 

I would not hold your breath on a PPC version of Cedega either as you would more than likely die. As for a x86 version of Cedega who knows what they are going to do.

[A Nonny Moose]

And furthermore demanding that WineHQ address the PPC version is a surefire way to {censored} them off. Try going to irc.freenode.net and tell them what they have to do. You seem to forget that these people do wine for free it is not charged for. Wine is a free and open project dont be a ass.

 

Not being one of those words you so lovingly called me. I'm saying that making something work on only one item is suicidal. How would you feel if an item wouldn't work because you have a 980xb and it can only work on a 980xa?

 

GIMP is also a free and open project and yet it works on a PPC Mac with nary a glitch. So just by being free doesn't excuse people. To be fair, there is a lot more to getting Wine over (including that emulation layer), but let's not use the "it's free" excuse as a way to wipe someone's slate clean.

 

Yep you succeeded in creating a surefire way of pissing me off by demanding that people do what _you_ want with their free time.

 

Anyway Wine has a huge potential to work on x86 versions of OSX and not PPC quite as easy just from the nature of the way PPC and x86 apps are made... To do it yes wine has to emulate x86 on the PPC and thats not a easy task

 

I would not hold your breath on a PPC version of Cedega either as you would more than likely die. As for a x86 version of Cedega who knows what they are going to do.

 

Well, glad I pissed you off. I'm glad I made you mad by saying "Mac programs should try to address both PPC and Intel processors." Tell me why catering to the needs of more than Intel Mac users makes you so friggin mad?

 

If you narrowcast, it's bad business practice (regardless of whether or not the item is good and free). Does Wine have some huge potential? Hells yeah, it does. Will Wine get a good foothold in the Mac community without PPC support? Absolutely not. The task isn't exactly easy, but to gain that good foothold in the Mac community, you have no other choice but to work with both PPC and Intel Macs. I guess that's why XCode has that damn Universal button (and yes, I know it just isn't that easy, but the button is there...)

 

Now getting back to the topic at hand, we go along a similar route. To get that good foothold, it better be a Universal build, or else you're narrowcasting (again). Will I be holding my breath? No, because Cedega probably won't even go to Mac to begin with. Will a petition work? Probably not, as petitions don't have a lot of effect in things like this.

[Gone Like The Wind]

Not being one of those words you so lovingly called me. I'm saying that making something work on only one item is suicidal. How would you feel if an item wouldn't work because you have a 980xb and it can only work on a 980xa?

 

GIMP is also a free and open project and yet it works on a PPC Mac with nary a glitch. So just by being free doesn't excuse people. To be fair, there is a lot more to getting Wine over (including that emulation layer), but let's not use the "it's free" excuse as a way to wipe someone's slate clean.

Well, glad I pissed you off. I'm glad I made you mad by saying "Mac programs should try to address both PPC and Intel processors." Tell me why catering to the needs of more than Intel Mac users makes you so friggin mad?

 

If you narrowcast, it's bad business practice (regardless of whether or not the item is good and free). Does Wine have some huge potential? Hells yeah, it does. Will Wine get a good foothold in the Mac community without PPC support? Absolutely not. The task isn't exactly easy, but to gain that good foothold in the Mac community, you have no other choice but to work with both PPC and Intel Macs. I guess that's why XCode has that damn Universal button (and yes, I know it just isn't that easy, but the button is there...)

 

Now getting back to the topic at hand, we go along a similar route. To get that good foothold, it better be a Universal build, or else you're narrowcasting (again). Will I be holding my breath? No, because Cedega probably won't even go to Mac to begin with. Will a petition work? Probably not, as petitions don't have a lot of effect in things like this.

 

Dude you need a reality check. honestly... Gimp is a completely differnet story if you would look at the actual program its not trying to run _WINDOWS_ applications on a OS that was not designed for it. Do you even realise how hard it is to do what they do?

 

As for the "980xb and it can only work on a 980xa" all I can say is welcome to my life of using linux I am usto it. There is loads of hardware/software I would love to have that both PPC and x86 mac have native but I am unable to due to linux. This is why wine was created. Wine was created to run windows applications in linux. Its spurred to mac and I think its really cool but dont demand and call their projects failures beacuse it does not float your boat just right.

 

Like I said I doubt Wine PPC will go anywhere if there are self centered {censored}s like you who continue to demand. Ohhh how bout this if you wish to have it work with PPC why dont you go help them as its open source and you can contribute. Insted of bitching about the job they are doing go help them since you know so much.

 

Cedega on the other hand has absolutely 0% chance of being on PPC if they were going to do it would be done. I guess that means they should not do x86 beings its designed to fail so I guess that seals that fate for you given your logic.

 

Enjoy the fantasy land while it exists.

 

As for the universal binary... I would not hold my breath as it does not conform to the way wine is currently built so it would change the entire binary building. Like I said its a free project and you want it to work go help them or shut the flaptrap. They dont have to do anything.

[A Nonny Moose]

I was going to respond, but your personal attacks against me say more than any response I could have given.

[Gone Like The Wind]

I was going to respond, but your personal attacks against me say more than any response I could have given.

 

How else do you expect somebody to respond? You were demanding the wine project do this or not at all.... Honestly you have to change your thinking away from commercial software and think of open source software... It works completely differnet the way its done is completely differnet. They are worlds apart and the sooner you come to terms with that the more likely you will understand.

 

Sure in a perfect world it would all work the way you want but this is not a perfect world.

 

All I am saying is dont demand stuff from people who donate their freetime. When people get demanding it un-motivates you to do something... It makes you less inclined to do something out of spite. Relax take a chill pill and maybe even contribute to wine and help get it working with PPC thats the best advice I can give. The wine project has been around for a LONG time IIRC it was 1993 that it started up.. The PPC project for OSX just started in the past few years its not anywhere near as tested or developed and furthermore expecting it to be as good as Wine itself for x86 is just floating in outer space.

 

I would personally rather see better compatibilty with x86 cpus be it osx86 or linux. I would rather see more apps supported and totally ignore PPC as per my feelings PPC will be a dead platform by the time the support is good enough to use it. The attempts are futile IMO.

 

Take it how you want.

[A Nonny Moose]

How else do you expect somebody to respond? You were demanding the wine project do this or not at all.... Honestly you have to change your thinking away from commercial software and think of open source software... It works completely differnet the way its done is completely differnet. They are worlds apart and the sooner you come to terms with that the more likely you will understand.

 

Actually any good/service is subject to the rules of economics, particularly a supply curve and demand curve. This is even inclusive of free goods/services, such as Wine, and the sooner you can come to that realization, the more likely you will understand that kind of notion. It doesn't matter if it's MS Office or Wine; both come under the same forces of economic pressure. With a free product, there is an infinite demand, but almost no supply, which is the case here (few people actually working on the product vs crews for paid software). So everyone wants Wine, but nobody is really willing to supply it. It's all economics, regardless of whether or not a product is free. It isn't a different beast.

 

All I am saying is dont demand stuff from people who donate their freetime. When people get demanding it un-motivates you to do something... It makes you less inclined to do something out of spite. Relax take a chill pill and maybe even contribute to wine and help get it working with PPC thats the best advice I can give. The wine project has been around for a LONG time IIRC it was 1993 that it started up.. The PPC project for OSX just started in the past few years its not anywhere near as tested or developed and furthermore expecting it to be as good as Wine itself for x86 is just floating in outer space.

 

I would personally rather see better compatibilty with x86 cpus be it osx86 or linux. I would rather see more apps supported and totally ignore PPC as per my feelings PPC will be a dead platform by the time the support is good enough to use it. The attempts are futile IMO.

 

Take it how you want.

 

Obviously other people have demanded it or else Darwine wouldn't even be though of for the PPC platform. There is obviously a demand for it and the supplier is working toward a solution. So being demanding in the case of Wine is a moot point, because it's being worked on. Better compatibility with x86 be damned, it's getting worked on for PowerPC in addition to that, which is complicated and it is worthy of praise.

 

As for not working on it after a demand or criticism, then that kind of stuff speaks volumes about the person doing the coding. If you can't take it, then maybe you shouldn't be doing something like this in the first place. Sorry if that sounds blunt, but you shouldn't be in a field where you can't take a hit.

 

As for PPC being dead, there are still people using Mac OS 9 and it's been declared dead for how many years now? Actually, there's a pretty vocal minority using OS 9, truthfully, even though people have saaid to them "It's time to move on." The PPC platform will still be alive for many more years to come, which is probably why Apple made that little universal button for XCode instead of going all Intel...

[V Plamondon]

You should all try to remember that the main audience for Wine will be Windoze users who are fed up with Windoze and are changing to alternative platforms such as Hackintosh or Unix platforms. Finding and changing regularly used software from one platform to another can be time consuming, expensive and frustrating.

 

Remember that a day one Macintosh user has Macintosh programs, utilities and games. He might desire that one nifty piece of Windows software, but may not go through the hassle of one of the options he has to use that piece of software (Wine, Dual-Booting, etc). In any case, that particular piece of software would make up a small portion of their software library (a drop in the bucket, you could say).

 

For the day one Windoze user, their entire software library is Windoze programs, utilities and games. Changing over to another software platform requires replacing their entire library, which, like I said, is time consuming, expensive and frustrating. Alternatively, one can get a Macintosh and install boot camp and install windows or install OSX86 on their Windoze machine, but I wouldn't pay a premium for a Macintosh and turn it into a Windoze machine, and if I'm going to intall OSX86 on my Windoze laptop, it's because I think Windoze is only good enough to wipe my ass with (I don't want to try because it might BSOD and get stuck up my ass).

 

Anyways, OSX86 and Wine have evolved to the point that the combination is quite useful, and is even superior in some respects to dual booting OSX and Windoze. Any day one Windoze user will tell you that their older software will not work with Vista or even XP, but with some tweaking much of these older titles do work on Wine. Their are also emulators, such as DosBox, available for many software platforms, that allow you to play older DOS games.

 

Cedega is actually built on Wine, it differs in that it has superior DirectX support compared to Wine and therefore superior gaming support. That doesn't mean Wine doesn't have good DirectX support, it does.

 

Looking at the requirements for Cedega on the Transgaming website, it is clear that one could install and fulfill all requirements for Cedega except the Linux kernel. Therefore, if Cedega didn't have any Linux kernel specific coding (I will eventually look into it as I am curious), it should run "as is" on OSX86. Even if that were not possible, many Macintosh games already have Cedega/Cider as the underlying API (yes, really), so it also might be possible for a skilled hacker to strip out Cedega/Cider (might as well grab SwiftShader too) from a game and using Linux's Cedega cobble together an Macintosh Cedega.

 

Checking out the "Cedega on FreeBSD" website it is unclear to me if this would be a trivial or serious undertaking (maybe someone with more time on their hands might want to look into).

 

Wine goes a long way to removing the obstacles for someone moving from Windoze to OSX, and someone were to cobble together a Cedega for Macintosh, converts from the Windoze world would worship them (I'm exagerating).