President Bush

[OryHara]

he also turned the largest surplus in history into the biggest deficit. mad skills!

 

@jbacko: "Terrorist? Takes oil? Well, the last time I filled up it was not free. One would expect that if we were getting all this "free" oil that it would cost less. Who knew?"

 

Are you a moron? America attacks Iraq (or Iran, or any other oil-producing middle-eastern country), moves in, sets up puppet government who just *happens* to allow American Big Business in, they bleed the country dry of its oil, and SELLS IT FOR THE SAME PRICE AS THEY ALWAYS DID. result == MASSIVE profits, america tightens its grip on the world's oil, and - lets face it, we're all dependant on oil, and hence we're all dependant on American Big Business.

 

Exactly. And now hes trying to tell reporters they can't talk about his cerveillance plans. Hes trying to outlaw people's ability to prosecute him. Hes trying to turn the US into China is what he is doing.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6031001677.html

 

@Aurora

Domestic spying: I have no problem with this. Period. If the intelligence people want to listen to me talking to my friends about our plans for this week, great, I really don't care, except I think their resources are better spent elsewhere. As long as the government doesn't go bashing down some poor family's door just because they're suspicious about their phone calls, very unlikely, then let them be. If the terrorists do have a cell here, I'd rather our intelligence-gathering services do everything in their power to discover them and their plans, via wire-tapping or otherwise. Not to mention they're probably not American citizens entitled to the same rights as such anyways.

 

I trust everyone, Just not the devil inside them. Bush would have me hung for my political views. How would you like it if I wiretapped you?. f*** it. I'll just wiretap Bush's converstations. I think we would ALL love to hear what he has to say. After all. Its legal now.

[39thRonin]

I do not believe that your assertions are wholely correct. The US is doing nothing more than any other country in the world - asserting and supporting it's own self-interest. One only need look into the vast corruption that existed in Iraq prior to the invasion to figure that out. Can you honestly say that France, Russia, and Germany were against the US invading Iraq on moral or ethical grounds? No, they all had huge contract they wanted to maintain. The UN was taking kickbacks for programs that were supposed to benifit the people of Iraq, yet ended up buying hundreds of millions in weapons that are now spread troughtout that country.

 

I do not think that spreading American values is the goal here. The goal, in my opinion, is to promote and assist people in achieving and maintaining freedom and democracy when they have little or no hope of doing that themselves. The rationale is that when people are free, they seldom try to destroy each other. It is a historical fact that no war in the last 100 or so years was fought between two democracies. Tyrants & democracies - yes, Dictators & democracies - yes, but in no case were both waring parties democratic.

 

While I still appreciate idealism - I was young once too, the realites are more stark. When a small, unsophisticated anti-everything country like North Korea has the will and ability to develop, deploy, transfer, and use nuclear weapons - someone has to ensure that they take pause before acting. Mutually Assured Destruction does not work anymore. No longer is the nuclear genie held in the bottle by the spectre of death - many of the countries trying to develop nuclear, biological and/or chemical weapons have no problem with hundreds, thousands, even millions of people dying. While it may appear that the US is doing all of this stuff for their own interests, one need only peer slightly behind the curtain to see the myriad of treaties, bi-lateral government agreements and the like that provide momentum to many of our actions.

 

See, the goal is not to tell the goat herder in Afganistan how to live his or her life. The goal is to give that goat herder the chance to make their own decisions. The goat herders and woman of afganistan had no way to beat back the taliban. The US helped make that happen. That a stable, democratic nation exists where there once was chaos and death is a good thing in my opinion - for the US and the world.

 

I contend that the US has never forced our culture on anyone. In a global economy some corporations do well - McDonalds, Starbucks, etc. However, the countries they exisit in are free markets - the consumer doesn't have to drink starbucks - do they?

[39thRonin]

Ahhh, I stand by my original assertion. Your ignorance is simply astounding. You REALLY need to stop drinking the socialist coolaid and do some serious fact checking. More jobs lost under Bush? Please. We have an unemployment rate of less than 5%. Any economist from any country will tell you that rate is the equivalent of having ZERO unemployment. Taking Iraqi oil? Where? When? The Iraqi oil fields are being run by the Iraqi government. Prior to the invasion, the largest lease holder for drilling Iraqi oil was Russia - which they got by giving Sadam just about ANY weapon from their inventory. Do some minimal fact checking before spewing such nonsense. And oh, by the way - listening to CNN dosen't count...

 

As for me being a Bush-bot, I voted for Clinton once - before he starting lying on a minute by minute basis... I am an independant voter who looks at everything with a very jaundiced eye. I make up my own mind and refuse to be led about by the nose by ANY group - republicans, liberal, socialist, or the media.

[OryHara]

I do not believe that your assertions are wholely correct. The US is doing nothing more than any other country in the world - asserting and supporting it's own self-interest. One only need look into the vast corruption that existed in Iraq prior to the invasion to figure that out. Can you honestly say that France, Russia, and Germany were against the US invading Iraq on moral or ethical grounds? No, they all had huge contract they wanted to maintain. The UN was taking kickbacks for programs that were supposed to benifit the people of Iraq, yet ended up buying hundreds of millions in weapons that are now spread troughtout that country.

 

I do not think that spreading American values is the goal here. The goal, in my opinion, is to promote and assist people in achieving and maintaining freedom and democracy when they have little or no hope of doing that themselves. The rationale is that when people are free, they seldom try to destroy each other. It is a historical fact that no war in the last 100 or so years was fought between two democracies. Tyrants & democracies - yes, Dictators & democracies - yes, but in no case were both waring parties democratic.

 

While I still appreciate idealism - I was young once too, the realites are more stark. When a small, unsophisticated anti-everything country like North Korea has the will and ability to develop, deploy, transfer, and use nuclear weapons - someone has to ensure that they take pause before acting. Mutually Assured Destruction does not work anymore. No longer is the nuclear genie held in the bottle by the spectre of death - many of the countries trying to develop nuclear, biological and/or chemical weapons have no problem with hundreds, thousands, even millions of people dying. While it may appear that the US is doing all of this stuff for their own interests, one need only peer slightly behind the curtain to see the myriad of treaties, bi-lateral government agreements and the like that provide momentum to many of our actions.

 

See, the goal is not to tell the goat herder in Afganistan how to live his or her life. The goal is to give that goat herder the chance to make their own decisions. The goat herders and woman of afganistan had no way to beat back the taliban. The US helped make that happen. That a stable, democratic nation exists where there once was chaos and death is a good thing in my opinion - for the US and the world.

 

I contend that the US has never forced our culture on anyone. In a global economy some corporations do well - McDonalds, Starbucks, etc. However, the countries they exisit in are free markets - the consumer doesn't have to drink starbucks - do they?

 

I do have to agree with you on the most part there. Democracy is the way to go. But 'self interest' is thinking only of one self. Selfishness. Every government, and gov official on this planet is corrupt.

God gave us all free will.

 

You might like this though. Its pretty funny.

http://thekidfrombrooklyn.com/

Check out what he says about starbucks.

[OryHara]

Ahhh, I stand by my original assertion. Your ignorance is simply astounding. You REALLY need to stop drinking the socialist coolaid and do some serious fact checking. More jobs lost under Bush? Please. We have an unemployment rate of less than 5%. Any economist from any country will tell you that rate is the equivalent of having ZERO unemployment. Taking Iraqi oil? Where? When? The Iraqi oil fields are being run by the Iraqi government. Prior to the invasion, the largest lease holder for drilling Iraqi oil was Russia - which they got by giving Sadam just about ANY weapon from their inventory. Do some minimal fact checking before spewing such nonsense. And oh, by the way - listening to CNN dosen't count...

 

As for me being a Bush-bot, I voted for Clinton once - before he starting lying on a minute by minute basis... I am an independant voter who looks at everything with a very jaundiced eye. I make up my own mind and refuse to be led about by the nose by ANY group - republicans, liberal, socialist, or the media.

 

%5 is too much. < %1 is ideal. 5 out of 100 familys are on the streets now if your stats are right.

 

Bush had them sign agreement for them to PAY for their democracy with oil. Its a fact.

 

Russia is now supplying Isrial's enemys with nuclear arms. Isrial's enemys from the north will be defeated with fire and brimstone according to revelations.

 

I belong to no party, because no party can see what is right.

 

I make up my own mind and refuse to be led about by the nose by ANY group - republicans, liberal, socialist, or the media.

%100 agreed.

 

See my above picture of bush & clinton together. Actual statements from both presidents.

I last voted Nadar. He has better values.

[munky]

"I do not think that spreading American values is the goal here. The goal, in my opinion, is to promote and assist people in achieving and maintaining freedom and democracy when they have little or no hope of doing that themselves."

 

Sounds like you're the one drinking the bush kool-aid, dude. Once again, read the statement of principles of the PNAC, and the Rebuilding America's Defenses document, and then look into the membership list of the PNAC. Now look at the bush cabinet and his advisers. And tell me that spreading American values and interests as far as possible is not the goal. Its stated there in plain black and white.

 

Futher info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_t...merican_Century

[39thRonin]

"I do not think that spreading American values is the goal here. The goal, in my opinion, is to promote and assist people in achieving and maintaining freedom and democracy when they have little or no hope of doing that themselves."

 

Sounds like you're the one drinking the bush kool-aid, dude. Once again, read the statement of principles of the PNAC, and the Rebuilding America's Defenses document, and then look into the membership list of the PNAC. Now look at the bush cabinet and his advisers. And tell me that spreading American values and interests as far as possible is not the goal. Its stated there in plain black and white.

 

Futher info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_t...merican_Century

 

Well, fortunately, the US is a country built upon a system of laws. As such, the views of these PNAC people are simply that - views. It's their opinion. Sure, some folks are in the Bush Administration - they are the so-called neo-cons about whom much has been written. That does not mean that ANYTHING in this document is official US government policy. In order for that to happen, these things would have to be codified into law - which is done in the full daylight of the Congress.

 

As for the content of this document, I don't have any real problem with it. It's central theme seems to be that since the breakup of the Soviet Union, numerous smaller countries - as well as religiously motivated jihadist groups - have formed to take on the West. Note that is not just America but Britain, the EU, etc. The fundemental difference is that due to the huge instability caused by the breakup of the SU, weapons of all sorts are available to whomever has cash. This "plan" is approproate fro the protection of the US. It is the sort of thing we should be doing. We have ample evidence that appeasement of terrorists does not work, and to prevent even more "spectacular" evnts from happening we need to orient our Armed Forces toward that end.

 

While I agree that the term Pax Americana is a bit corny, I do not see the dark side of protecting our country and defeating those who - given the slightest chance - would destroy us all.

 

As for the comments (not necessarily yours munky) about the Patriot Act, once again, please attempt to at least read the thing before spewing the headline news OK? The Patriot Act does nothing more than provides the same tools used by law enforcement against drug dealers and organized crime. The exact same requirements for warrents, evidence, etc. are required, as is judicial oversight of the entire process. The principle difference is tha the target is terror and not drugs.

 

Regarding "wiretapping" (once again, not necessarily your comments munky) please read something other than the socialist daily for your news. The so-called "domestic wiretapping" is neither. Once again, and for the record, the program is designed specifically to intecept and monitor the communications from OUTSIDE the US from KNOWN or SUSPECTED terrorists to people inside the US. I have no problem - whatsoever - with this. For those of you who are presenting this as the general wiretapping of American citizens, you are severely deluded. PLEASE, try to stray away from CNN and the rest of the socialist info spewers out there and do your own homework. There are many sources of un-biased news available, we really should use those sources more often.

 

Don't you folks get it? The people spewing this nonsense have an ax to grind - they LOST their power! They will do and say anything to get it back. That is why it is so important to DISBElIEVE 90% of everything you see and hear - from both sides.

[Aurora]

Munky: I think you have "leadership" confused with "domination." I don't think anyone on Capitol hill would say they have world domination on their minds (save some twisted individuals). You've notice America has only attacked two nations out of the over a hundred that span the sphere. I would hardly call that a first attempt at building a global empire. If America really wanted the oil, and I'm not saying we don't need it, we'd attack Russia.

 

No matter which way you spin it, America is currently the world's only superpower. And all I can say is thank God it wasn't the Soviet Union who lasted the Cold War, and I'd rather America led the way into the 21st century instead of a totalitarian communist/socialist power.

 

In other news, my freedoms are not being eroded away, on the contrary they're being protected. Listening in is not the same as DOING something about it. Please realize this: The feds are not "out to get people" whom they think MIGHT be a bogey man. These are men and women who've made their lives trying to root out the lawless among us. In a time like this, we cannot afford to tie our hands for the sake of someone else's comfort. They are BOUND to make mistakes every once in a while. I cannot blame them for that, as long as they make it right in the end. Yes, they keep secrets from us. D'y'know why? Because if we know, then the enemy knows. The military is still declassifying documents from the WWII era about all the intelligence efforts at that time. It could be fifty years until we know how many terrorists that the CIA captured and interrogated to prevent innocent deaths. I really doubt the feds are simply picking people off the streets to send to Gitmo.

 

Taxes? Take a basic economics course, people. There is a tax rate that has been proven to allow the economy to maintain peak production, and the levels the Clinton administration set them at were too high. Y'all seem to be laboring under the impression that the deficit is always a bad thing. The government sacrified for the long run: taxes go down encouraging entepreneurship, people make more money (profit motive, not always a bad thing), more money for the government to tax. Everybody's happy.

 

Also, if any one of you ever take this basic economics course, the normal unemployment rate is 5%. This does NOT mean that 5% of America's families are out on the streets. It means people changing jobs (frictional unemployment), people learning new skills for new jobs (structural unemployement), and economic cycles causing unemployment (cyclical unemployment). Bush has an MBA in Business Administration from Harvard; d'you really think he'd do that for his own gain?

 

OryHara: I'm not even going to touch your stuff until you can get your language under control and debate like a civilized, rational person with facts and supportable evidence instead of just shooting off your mouth because you automatically "know" it's right. That "SOB" in the White House is our fairly-elected president and no matter what anyone thinks of him, he still deserves to be respected as such. I gave Clinton the respect a president deserves, it would be nice for you to return the favor.

I will touch one thing tho': "The love of money is the root of all KINDS of evil." Get yer maxims straightened out.

 

 

 

We do not spread American principles by force. American principles (free-market economy, freedom of speech, press, religion, etc., right to life, liberty, happiness), last time I checked, all of these things were available to me. I can go out and protest whatever I bloody well please. I can worship whatever God I choose. I can go out and blow my entire savings account on a new sports car. I can do all of these things without fear of retribution by the government or my peers, as long as I'm not intruding on other people's rights. I have never heard of anyone just being picked up by Bush's secret police and shipped off to some secret prison in Europe to be thumb-screwed. On the other hand, I really don't think we should be labelling these as "American principles," even though America was the first to propagate them at large. These are "Western principles," about which thought has stretched from our time all the way back to ancient Mesopatamia thousands of years ago. These are the core foundations upon which our country was built, and they are STILL there, after over 200 years, having faced revolutionary wars, civil wars, world wars, scandals, and other things. That's gotta count for something. If these really are "American principles," then I think the world really would be a better place if they became "Universal principles," but only if the world willingly accepts them.

 

I think we sell the people in power quite a bit short. Have a nice life.

[Aurora]

My God, Mashugly, what have you done? The only way this is going to end is for us to rip out each other's throats...!

 

...after we've bludgeoned each other to death with the verbal blows, of course.

[39thRonin]

Once again, Aurora, a well-reasoned reply. I fully agree that the principles ascribed to America are indeed universal (there - we finally got this topic back on a hackintosh track ) in nature. Literally every civilized nation on earth, and even some rather uncivilized ones have shown adherance to some or all of these beliefs.

 

On Gitmo, once again our comrades are misinformed. The people interned at Gitmo fall into one category and one category only. They were all captured on the field of battle in either Afganistan or Iraq. There are no US citizens at Gitmo. They are interned there because they do not have the rights afforded Prisoners of War under the Hague Conventions - as they are not a uniformed military force. The Hague Conventions are quite explicit on this fact - no uniform, not a POW. So, whenever Al Qieda starts wearing berets or something and signs the Conventions rather than cutting off people's heads, they will be protected. Until then, they get Gitmo...

 

In all of this I am struck by the bumper-sticker mentality ( Bush is Dumb, Bush Sucks, etc. ) of some of these folks. Don't they teach critical thinking in school any longer? I mean, half of the stuff said in this thread I've literally seen on bumper stickers around town...

[Wayland]

As a side note, I usually say out of fights like this, but don't trust everything you hear on Iraq from the news. The most credible sources are the ones who don't get paid to tell you what's going on there. Here are a few pics I took when I was there, you wouldn't see normally.

Me on the bottom

A school that was in dire need of repair

After the repair...

Inside

The Local Kids who were going to go to this rebuilt school!

 

Typically I wouldn't even bother posting, but I figured you might find these interesting since the topic was mentioned.

[Colonel]

wow. nice speech

[Bug]

Jbacko, We'll get your misunderstanding of FEMA, Homeland Security, and the federal government's responsibilities in State affairs during a declared emergency in another post.

 

I like your comment "The US is doing nothing more than any other country in the world - asserting and supporting it's own self-interest. ". So that makes it ok, huh? Aren't we better then the other guys? Or has global politics become 'grab what you can while you can'. Yes, I can honestly say France and Germany were against us going to war. I mean, you did see the protests right? And all the negotiating to get them to go along with us? And of course, you know the UN wasn't taking kickbacks, the people in the UN were. And what about the hundreds of millions in weapons WE sold Iraq, doesn't that matter at all?

 

What kind of kool aid were you drinking when you decided we're promoting 'freedom and democracy' in theses countries? Democracy and what we're doing (and how we're structured) are different. Please check a dictionary for the definition of democracy and then look up how the president is actually elected for example. I mean really, follow the vote from citizen to where it's counted and what effect it actually has on the election. Here's a hint, that's why you hear of the 'popular vote' during an election as well as the 'electoral vote'.

 

The only thing we're giving the goat herder is an ultimatum. The goal isn't really giving the herder the chance to make their own decisions because the first choice is doing what we feel is right and the second is death by invasion or precision bombing. You've obviously missed the history of the United States in the post world war 2 era. Like, for example, how we helped overthrow the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED president of Iran to put the Shah in power. It was called Operation Ajax and is public knowledge now.

 

Now, let's look at your comments about Bush and the job rate. Our 'offical' unemployment number is down, but there are problems with those numbers like how many of the jobs counted are low wage / service jobs the were not counted in the past for various reasons. See, the real unemployment rate in the US is around 9.7%, because the Government doesn't tally the job rate correctly. For example, people who are on the unemployment list are only counted for 6 month, even if you don't find a new job. In addition, freelance workers do not count while they wait for work for months. And, people who work as little as one hour are counted as 'employed'. But the best part is it doesn't count the people who aren't actively looking for work through the system. Part of this strange and so obviously wrong accounting is because early in his 1st term Bush changed how jobs are classified and how people are counted in the surveys to make the numbers LOOK better. And now when the news is getting bad, they go and cut the budget;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...av=rss_politics

 

Funny how the country gets poorer and sicker while things should be all roses with those numbers;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Aug26.html

 

Now, let's look at the situation in Iraq with regards to Oil.

First, back ground on the oil industry in Iraq and why it's so important to the world;

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2002/12heart.htm

 

Next, lets look at the American Management of the Oil Industry in Iraq;

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0426-02.htm

 

And finally, take a glance at what is really going on with the oil industry;

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2...rudedesigns.htm

 

Please, look some of this stuff up if you are interested in learning how really work. It's silly to think that Bush doesn't lie and Clinton was as bad as you wish. But more importantly, before you start ranting about a 'Liberal Media Consipiricy', forget where the data came from. Prove it wrong. Show some links showing how Iraqi's are benefiting from the oil industry right now or how they will in the near future. Some links to sources, maybe an multinational source like the UN or a relief organization, that show how the oil industry is benefiting iraqis. In addition, please stop accusing people of ignorance when it's clear your simply regurgitating the party line. I know it's hard to understand how a politician you trust and look up to lied to you, but you need to get over it and realize people in politics lie.

[scousi]

Consider this: we do not have all the facts, i.e. we do not have data miners running 'round the clock collecting information about terrorists, WMD-seeking nations, and other threats to our national security, like the president and his cabinet do. We do not possibly, and will probably never in our lifetime, have all the information that the President, Secretary Rumsfeld (not "Rummy"), and Secretary Rice do to make decisions. This doesn't mean we shouldn't use the facts that we're given. Those who speak against going to war, against domestic spying, and against torture do so out of ignorance.

 

First the war: Despite popular opinion, WMD's were discovered in Iraq (do a Google search for "iraq wmds sarin gas uranium"), and it only makes sense even if you're not going to believe it. I doubt that anyone will disagree that Saddam Hussein was a less-than-good guy. Heck, the man believed he was Nebuchadnezzar reincarnated, the ancient king of Babylon, destined to rule the world. Using secrecy to obtain the means to fulfill this ambition would be the next logical step. His connections to Osama bin Laden also make sense, both parties want America's and Israel's destruction, why wouldn't they want to work together?

 

 

Everybody agrees that WMDs were not discovered in Iraq. Even Bush's puppets and investigators placed there after the War said so in official reports. As far as WMD's go, why is it a crime for some countiries to have some and others not? I never quite understood that. Sarin gas was discovered by the UN inspectors.

 

 

Saddam Hussein: To the date the war began, he defied seventeen, count 'em, seventeen U.N. resolutions to disarm his nation. He has murdered thousands, perhaps millions of his own people (mass graves discovered), probably in weapons testing. Until he was deposed, there was a reason the U.S. had a trade embargo and the U.N. an oil embargo against Iraq. We didn't want this man to have any more money than he already did. As I like to say: Nothing good could have come of this.

 

There are over 60 UN security council resolutions defied by Israel. So why does Israel get a free pass anyways?

 

I'm also glad that Arafat is no longer there. That was one corrupt person! He died a Billionaire.

 

Saddam was not a good person, but he was not a threat to the US. He was a secular leader who's objective was to stay in power. You don't stay in power by attacking the US and he knew that. Saddam was also a creation of the US government , just like other killers Pinochet , Videla etc. There are far more dangerous leaders in the World than Saddam - mainly in Africa - Angola, Congo, Somalia. There's no Oil there, so no rescue of the people from their dictatorship. 3 million people died in Congo. Were you aware of that? It's hardly mentioned in the news. You have mentioned that Saddam and Ossama had a relationship. In fact they hated each other. Saddam was considered a sinner by Ossama. Letters found after the war proved this. Haven't you seen the video of Rummy giving Saddam a warm Handshake or Chirac kissing him the cheek.

 

Iran and North Korea however do have proven nuclear technology. Why did they get a free pass? The problem now is that the US military cannot afford another war even if it has to. The US has squandered all it's goodwill around the globe. Goodwill cannot be forced upon or bought.

 

 

 

 

Domestic spying: I have no problem with this. Period. If the intelligence people want to listen to me talking to my friends about our plans for this week, great, I really don't care, except I think their resources are better spent elsewhere. As long as the government doesn't go bashing down some poor family's door just because they're suspicious about their phone calls, very unlikely, then let them be. If the terrorists do have a cell here, I'd rather our intelligence-gathering services do everything in their power to discover them and their plans, via wire-tapping or otherwise. Not to mention they're probably not American citizens entitled to the same rights as such anyways.

 

I'm quite sure a lot of doors were smashed. I have nothing to hide. But I want my Privacy. I DON'T want people to listen to my conversations with my friends. Where's the oversight? How do you know they're not spying on political opponents while they're at it. They also had access to all the phone records. How do you know they're not looking at which Senator is talking to who? They have access to all the social networks.

 

Torture: If I have a terrorist in my custody who's hidden a 9-megaton nuclear device somewhere in Dallas, then I'm going to use every means available to coerce the location of that device out of him. I really don't give a damn about his pain. He's a would-be murderer and does not deserve the basic human rights of life and happiness that he would so readily deny others. On a more legal note, the Geneva Convention does not cover ununiformed and undeclared combatants. But far be it from me to let someone else's reservations get in the way about doing what's necessary to find it.

Guantanamo? Fine. Reportedly some prisoners don't want to leave since the conditions there are much better than anywhere else they've been. They live better than most homeless people on the mainland.

 

I agree with you. But the definition of a terrorist has never been quite clear. If someone hides a 9 megaton bomb - arrest him and bring him to trial and thow him in jail for the rest of his life. After $400 Billion, where the hell is Ossama. NO ONE RESPONSIBLE for September 11 has been found guilty yet! Guantanamo is a Gulag. Charge the prisonners and bring them to trial.

 

Y'know, somehow I think amidst all of the chatter that we forget that the brave men and women in the military, the intelligence and law-enforcement communities, and, yes, even the government, wouldn't be doing the job they do unless they have our nation's best interests at heart and readily give of themselves to keep the rest of us idiots safe. Remember, we'll probably never know everything that these courageous people have done for us in this life. Heh, at the very least, President Bush is an improvement over Clinton (impeached by the House of Representatives for perjury) in terms of honesty.

 

I though Clinton's lie was quite large. But being impeached for lying about a BJ looks rediculous to me compared to the lies Bush has told the world. You are assuming that everyone in law-enforcement is 100% kosher. I doubt that. That's why there always has to be oversight and check and balances. Bush has decided that the Constitution is something that should be followed on occasion. He breaks laws in the name of "war on terror". He is creating the illusion of terror in order to allow himself all the powers he wants. He has breeded more terrorists in his tenure. The target should have been Ossama and not Iraqi oil. Even his own father disagreed on Iraq. George Senior hangs out with Clinton more than his own son! Many lives were lost with this war, but much blood money was made - and not by the soldiers.

 

On a less civil note:

THAT'S IT?

You put Hitler on a podium, then replace him with the President? Forgive me, but I really don't understand the concept you're trying to drive. What are we supposed to be looking for? Similar hairstyles? Fingernails cut to the same length? Looking through a piece of polarized glass and seeing a swastika stealthily embroidered on his jacket front?

 

C'mon people, I think we could put pretty much anyone on that podium and spot similarities. Winston Churchill notwithstanding. I have lots of ammo against that, but I've gone far enough for the night.

*sigh*

 

God bless the U.S.A., that the U.S.A. may bless God.

Do not, I repeat, do not even think about criticizing my spelling.

[39thRonin]

Jbacko, We'll get your misunderstanding of FEMA, Homeland Security, and the federal government's responsibilities in State affairs during a declared emergency in another post.

 

I like your comment "The US is doing nothing more than any other country in the world - asserting and supporting it's own self-interest. ". So that makes it ok, huh? Aren't we better then the other guys? Or has global politics become 'grab what you can while you can'. Yes, I can honestly say France and Germany were against us going to war. I mean, you did see the protests right? And all the negotiating to get them to go along with us? And of course, you know the UN wasn't taking kickbacks, the people in the UN were. And what about the hundreds of millions in weapons WE sold Iraq, doesn't that matter at all?

 

What kind of kool aid were you drinking when you decided we're promoting 'freedom and democracy' in theses countries? Democracy and what we're doing (and how we're structured) are different. Please check a dictionary for the definition of democracy and then look up how the president is actually elected for example. I mean really, follow the vote from citizen to where it's counted and what effect it actually has on the election. Here's a hint, that's why you hear of the 'popular vote' during an election as well as the 'electoral vote'.

 

The only thing we're giving the goat herder is an ultimatum. The goal isn't really giving the herder the chance to make their own decisions because the first choice is doing what we feel is right and the second is death by invasion or precision bombing. You've obviously missed the history of the United States in the post world war 2 era. Like, for example, how we helped overthrow the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED president of Iran to put the Shah in power. It was called Operation Ajax and is public knowledge now.

 

Now, let's look at your comments about Bush and the job rate. Our 'offical' unemployment number is down, but there are problems with those numbers like how many of the jobs counted are low wage / service jobs the were not counted in the past for various reasons. See, the real unemployment rate in the US is around 9.7%, because the Government doesn't tally the job rate correctly. For example, people who are on the unemployment list are only counted for 6 month, even if you don't find a new job. In addition, freelance workers do not count while they wait for work for months. And, people who work as little as one hour are counted as 'employed'. But the best part is it doesn't count the people who aren't actively looking for work through the system. Part of this strange and so obviously wrong accounting is because early in his 1st term Bush changed how jobs are classified and how people are counted in the surveys to make the numbers LOOK better. And now when the news is getting bad, they go and cut the budget;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...av=rss_politics

 

Funny how the country gets poorer and sicker while things should be all roses with those numbers;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Aug26.html

 

Now, let's look at the situation in Iraq with regards to Oil.

First, back ground on the oil industry in Iraq and why it's so important to the world;

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2002/12heart.htm

 

Next, lets look at the American Management of the Oil Industry in Iraq;

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0426-02.htm

 

And finally, take a glance at what is really going on with the oil industry;

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2...rudedesigns.htm

 

Please, look some of this stuff up if you are interested in learning how really work. It's silly to think that Bush doesn't lie and Clinton was as bad as you wish. But more importantly, before you start ranting about a 'Liberal Media Consipiricy', forget where the data came from. Prove it wrong. Show some links showing how Iraqi's are benefiting from the oil industry right now or how they will in the near future. Some links to sources, maybe an multinational source like the UN or a relief organization, that show how the oil industry is benefiting iraqis. In addition, please stop accusing people of ignorance when it's clear your simply regurgitating the party line. I know it's hard to understand how a politician you trust and look up to lied to you, but you need to get over it and realize people in politics lie.

 

Hmmm, I checked out the links you sent, and they went a long way to explain your point of view. I prefer more scholarly analysis as opposed to leftwing propaganda... Can I just cut and paste stuff from one of the conservative think tanks to respond to this? I mean globalpolicy.org and commondreams.org are both funded by socialists. I rather expect to get this point of view from them. The WP? Please, they hate Bush - plain & simple.

 

I never said anything to indicate that Bush never lied. I do not think, however that he ALWAYS lies either. I've never said that I agree with Bush on everything - that doesn't mean that has done EVERYTHING wrong - does it? I am well aware that politicians lie - and have made my philosphy quite clear - disbelive 90% of what anyone of these people say. Clear enough? I do look at both sides of issues and form my own opinions - I will never allow either the right or the left to shove words or cute little slogans into my mouth.

 

Trust me, I did not miss anything about the US history in post WWII. I took part in some aspects of it. Your choice of illustration was interesting - a dictator for a shah? IN my research, the person overthrown was hardly democratically elected! At any rate the thrust of most of my comments stress the need for a greater deal of independance when making decisions about what to beleive and what not to...

[munky]

scousi, bug : thank you for carrying the torch of sanity in this thread, and for the excellent historical information you've provided.

 

im not going to be able to contribute much more to this discussion - not because i feel my arguments have been defeated (in my opinion they havent even been addressed) - but rather because my wife-to-be gave birth to my first child two weeks ago and i want to concentrate on him rather than this fruitless exercise.

 

just remember kids: peace and democracy arent spread by the bombing of civilians.

 

peace, out.

[lane]

There seem to be some "righteous minded" Bush supporters out there, sorry to see this is still the case even with the majority of us Americans finally against him in the polls.

 

I like a few things about Bush, his small town appeal echo's with my view of how people should treat one another like neighbors. I also feel he really does support the troops and cares about the families.

 

Now let's address what I dislike... Oh where to start... Where is Bin Laden? No seriously:

 

The man is incompetent; he has proven time and time again that the people he trusts inside his administration breed corruption. His management up till his election as a public servant is less than stellar; in fact it's a tragic record of complete failure.

 

He has made no apology for being wrong about going to war in Iraq for the wrong reasons, yeah he "could" have been given bad intelligence and based his decision off that but that's no excuse for not apologizing for the lose of life attributed to that decision.

 

We could talk ethics, economics, morals, China, Iran, Afghanistan (the forgotten war part deuce). Instead of dabbling in any of that I feel it's more important for a serious discussion about his administrations recent war on personal privacy and human rights. Slashdot had an article up about new legislation that would make it illegal for press to be able to disclose secret government taps; {censored}!! I wholeheartedly agree that we need wiretaps but we also need to expose (after 6 months) what those wiretaps have brought to our attention. It is absolutely cruel and unusual for anyone to be put under surveillance and then deported with little more than a patriot act to support the decision.

 

It's no wonder this guy gets along great with the Chinese another set of people I dislike for their belittlement of their people. China may put forth an excellent argument that basic needs of food and water should come before civil rights, it is however through civil rights that people can find the strength to speak up against oppression to ask for food and water!

[39thRonin]

...

just remember kids: peace and democracy arent spread by the bombing of civilians.

...

 

Well, peace and democracy is not attained by appeasement or allowing terrorists to bomb civilians either...

 

There seem to be some "righteous minded" Bush supporters out there, sorry to see this is still the case even with the majority of us Americans finally against him in the polls.

 

Ahhh, most people I know with strongly held beliefs coould give a tinker's d%$m about polls. And with regard to the Patriot Act - I love it. I've detailed why in another post. And, if someone is deported because they were having a coversation with a terrorist organization, too bad...

[scousi]

Well, peace and democracy is not attained by appeasement or allowing terrorists to bomb civilians either...

Ahhh, most people I know with strongly held beliefs coould give a tinker's d%$m about polls. And with regard to the Patriot Act - I love it. I've detailed why in another post. And, if someone is deported because they were having a coversation with a terrorist organization, too bad...

 

You could easily be having a conversation with a terrorist organization without knowing it. Some of your friends might actually be involved in terrorist activities without your knowledge or suspicion. All of a sudden - bang bang - the FBI is at your door and you disappear without a trace. You are now tagged as a terrorist. Good luck.

[Aurora]

That's 66 resolutions over a period of almost sixty years. Israel is surrounded by over a dozen countries that would blow it off the face of the planet given half a decent chance. The Arabs are no friends of the Jews, and they're certainly not the underdog in this case, so I can hardly blame Israel for taking measure to defend itself. Iraq, on the other hand, with no threat to its own security proceeds to invade Kuwait and wage war with Saudi Arabia and Iran. I don't think there's really much comparison: Israel is made of citizens who have, or are descended from, Jews who have survived the Holocaust. If they do not know the meaning of pain, tyranny, home in its truest sense, or necessary self-defense, then I don't think anyone knows. They are a democracy, Iraq was a dictatorship. Israel also has had nuclear capability since the 1960's but hasn't bothered to use it; I doubt I could say the same for Saddam.

 

(not to mention I think the U.N. is a blatantly anti-semetic organization for this very reason).

 

I think you underestimate Saddam's personal convictions and resolve quite a bit. Even if Saddam wasn't a threat then, he would have been in the near future, that's why the war started with a "pre-emptive strike." As for these othere dictators you've mentioned, maybe they're next and we just don't know. There is tension building against N. Korea and Iran in case y'haven't noticed, and we will likely attack should we find them to be a real threat. But we will only resort to force as a last resort and rather try to pressure them into giving up their programs.

 

Saddam and Osama hated each other? Show me the letters, I can't find them. But I did find this on Google, search "saddam osama relationship", word for word; practically every other hit claims a relationship existed.

I agree on one point: We have indeed failed to bring Osama bin Laden to justice after the incredible reasources we've used to try and find him. But why has no one else been found who's guilty of the 9/11 attacks? Easy: they're all dead, or at least most of them are. The 19 directly responsible and most of al Qaeda's leadership? Gone to "paradise." Thanks to whom? Our military, the CIA, etc.

 

Spying on political opponents? I thought we were talking about the intelligence community here, not a few unscrupulous politicians sitting in a basement listening in on their arch-foes making plans. Their oversight is the ENTIRE Congress, politicians ranging across the spectrum. More on this later.

 

M'kay, I always thought the definition was quite clear, but here you go: "Terrorism, n., the unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." They are unlawful by nature, therefore we should not follow the normal rules in dealing with these people. They are trying to kill or intimidate us by any means possible.

 

Let me get back to my bomb scenario. We have a terrorist in custody and we KNOW he knows where this bomb is. We also don't know when it's going to detonate. D'you honestly think we're going just to toss 'im into th' slammer and put him on trial? How is that going to help us save potentially lost lives? Get the location out of him and aftwerwards lock 'im up and throw away the key, but not until he is no further use to us in terms of information.

 

Guantanamo has already been beaten through and through. Only terrorists, not suspects, not American citizens, no one who has the right to due process (which extends to American and allied citizens and legal resident aliens; see Geneva Convention) are incarcerated there.

 

I am not assuming everyone in law-enforcement is "100% kosher." There's always bound to be corruption and fallacies in every profession. That's why there is a system of accountability in our justice system. I previously mention that our intelligence services are overseen by the Legislature, men and women on both sides of the aisle, which ties into the largest check-and-balance system in the government.

 

Finally, your last paragraph is almost pure rhetoric, baseless accusations, and matter-of-fact statements.

 

Read a few texts for me: The Federalist Papers and a nice book called "Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy."

 

Have a nice day.

 

You could easily be having a conversation with a terrorist organization without knowing it. Some of your friends might actually be involved in terrorist activities without your knowledge or suspicion. All of a sudden - bang bang - the FBI is at your door and you disappear without a trace. You are now tagged as a terrorist. Good luck.

 

Has this ever happened to anyone you know?

[mortis]

I know I will get flamed for this but:

 

Israel is not only made from jews that survived the Holocaust. It is also made from jews that used to live with arabs (yes, alongside with them , each of them respecting each other and living almost peacefully for the last 2000 years). I am not a muslim, but if you read about the muslim empire since 600ad, you will notice that jews expanded with them, since they were very respectful for other believes. It was us christians who chased them (both muslims and jews ) out of Europe.

So what has changed then?

It is not antisemitism, but the fact thar Israel has continousy expaned in the region, driving palestinians out of their (legitimate) homes, in order to sieze control of ther "biblical" territories. The fact is that human rights DONT exist for palestinias, and they are continously oppressed. So do you really think they would not hate Israel under those circumstances?. The fact is tha US bans any UN resolution against Israel. And what is worse, US is starting to behave like Israel in some matters: Killing or having prisioners without a trial. Can Israel be really called a democracy if people get kill by "Selective Assasinations" without trial? That look very much like terrorism to me. State-Terrorism....

[OryHara]

Agreed with munkey. Im out too. Gotta spend some more time with this x600pro getting it to work right. (real world stuff). And get my IntelMac up to par to make it a daily useable machine instead of just an experiment. I think ive expressed my views and everyone understands them even though they may not agree.

 

Thanks though guys.

I like this board, and hope none of you consider me your enemy.

[39thRonin]

You could easily be having a conversation with a terrorist organization without knowing it. Some of your friends might actually be involved in terrorist activities without your knowledge or suspicion. All of a sudden - bang bang - the FBI is at your door and you disappear without a trace. You are now tagged as a terrorist. Good luck.

 

Ahhh, you can't seriously believe this, can you? Do you really think that the FBI, et.al. are running around doing this? My God, I guess I'll have to pull out my tinfoil hat to participate in this thread...

 

No person is "tagged as a terrorist" until they are proven to deserve such a tag. Having a phone conversation with your friend Mustafa isn't a big deal. Having several phone calls with Mustafa over a period of time and then having $10,000 show up in your bank account - now that's cause for a visit... Even then, as an American, you would be completely covered by the US Constitution and a vast system of laws & lawyers. If you are not American, then the worst they could do (assuming you are not a terrorist), is to deport you.

 

Now, just so that you don't get all paranoid about this, do you really think with all of the reporters, activists, lawyers, the ACLU, etc. in this country that anything even remotely close to this could happen without it being headline news? So, please, save the histrionics for footbal games OK?

[Aurora]

Yes, this was a stimulating discussion to an extent.

 

My belief system has been declared, time to move on.

[Bug]

We all agree to disagree? Ok, I'm down with that. Nothing like a good politics thread to get the old blood pumping