I think it's a coincidence (because the EFI updates for Macs came out way before this Psystar business showed up) but still it's possible that Apple is silently changing their EFI interface for a new coming mach kernel. We won't see it coming until we have a new kernel in hand. And once we have it, that's too late. (But if this is gonna happen, I am sure Netkas will know beforehand from a new kernel seed and let us know.) My fingers are crossed.

it's a Monday...somewhere there has to be new article!!!

Not sure if I'm reading financial reports incorrectly these days or not, but when I look at their total revenues reported in FY2007 - I come up with only a slight margin for all hardware... however, what I was referring to was the fact that there is a significant difference in their numbers due to the very EULA verbage that we're discussing here.

Based on the '07 numbers, if you take all COMPUTER HARDWARE sales versus software, services, and device hardware - the numbers are very close... $10.3B vs. $13.7B or if you include misc. hardware and peripherals in the Mac numbers as well... $11.6B vs. $12.4B.

In either case the net sales of Hardware are not greater than sales of software, services and portable devices. If you're including iPods in with your 'hardware' numbers then it's way lopsided, but no one was suggesting they stop making iPods or iPhones.

The other important point is that these are the net sales numbers... I couldn't find a pure profit by sector breakdown in their 10-K, and maybe the market has changed since I sold hardware, but I'm pretty sure it costs more to manufacture and store 100K iMacs than it does to press and store 100K copies of MacOS.

Source: http://biz.yahoo.com/e/071115/aapl10-k.html

However, even these numbers are diluted... as they include the price of MacOS in all of the Mac sales numbers... no matter how little it might be, a part of that $10+ billion is actually software sales - it's just included with the hardware. If Apple were to release an open-hardware version of MacOS - it would be reasonable to assume that the software/service/ipod/iphone side would significantly outstrip the hardware side... not to mention that there is a much greater actual cost in the hardware represented by inventory and manufacturing - that is not an obstacle to software and portable devices or services. But in either case, you can't use the current profit levels as a true indicator.

The real reason that Apple has not adopted a M$ business model is that they currently have a niche (albeit a booming one) that they do not want to dilute by having something as problematic as an open-hardware OS on the market. Their entire sales strategy is based on the fact that they sell a computer for the people that think PC's are 'ugly' or 'complicated'. They've almost entirely abandoned trying to say their hardware is better or faster (as they did in the G4/G5 days) and have moved to the 'It just works' and 'It's easy and doesn't get virii' marketing models.

Like it or hate it... Apple 'Just works' because they have to develop and test about .1% of the hardware and drivers with their OS. If they didn't - they would have the same kind of constant patching and update schedules (as well as user horror-stories) that MS has. I think they don't mind people building hackintoshes as long as they don't have to provide commercial support for those machines. Even if all of them don't actually buy a copy of the OS - those of us that did... that's just a bonus to their bottom line.



I do see your point, but I believe that the numbers disagree.

As far as I can see on their site, they are actually offering an official copy of OSX with their pcs, then installing a modded one. Anyway, the more people running OSX on macs or pcs the better, as long as their moving away from MS. I agree that if Psystar are offering up a non - official version of OSX for their own profit, then they should have their asses sued off, but if their hackintosh buyers are having to buy a full copy of Leo to get a free mod version, why the hell not.

It probably won't get far, hackintoshs need tlc by people who are passionate about them, not by mainstream consumers.

I dunno if I'm the 1st to post this but look:



Instead of linking to InsanelyMac they tell you to watch the Psystar site.

they change the story everyday i posted when i caught their web site was saying insanelymac for support... but they keep jumping from one place to another as their HQ pcs evolving from openmac to opencomputer

they are changing colors more than the original animals which changes their color less often...

1. @DiGiCiD@L

I think you're amazingly close to the truth Thx for your diggin'

2. Standing the risk to be amiss, I believe no lawsuit concerning today's Mac clones & EULA's legitimacy won't worth as much as the content of this thread! Many of us are accepting the computer tech. progress fractionally depend upon hacking, but one's not ready to pay the price for it, on the grounds of morality... I assume no osx86 developer looks for money refund and "Apple's Legal Hammer" won't touch osx86 community... because of (... & ... & ...)

In this respect, osx86 and other related web communities might unintentionally be THE "jury" of this "so-questionable-moral-lawsuit". If so, I must grant I have the jim-jams lookin' fwd to whatever verdict... "Great power comes with great responsability", as we all know...

And... I suppose this isn't just a Psy-case as far as aircrafts were designed in the past by using legally Mac clones;

and God knows what comes next...

They are obviously reading this thread ;)

I'm sure Apple is too, so I'd like to take this opportunity to say "Hi Steve" and ask (cough) when are the Mac minis going to be updated?

They are moving again...
oh dear...


hmmm?

Darn. I'm getting into the thread late (was on vacation all weekend ).

Personally, this is shades of Compaq vs IBM all over again. IBM got bit in the butt HARD because they chose to build their PC from commodity parts with the only proprietary part being the BIOS which was legally reverse engineered by Compaq. Legally, they couldn't do anything.

So yeah, Apple will likely sue this company in a hearbeat. The question is, can they win? At this point the issue is not whether Apple will "let" OS X be run on any other hardware - it's whether or not they can legally disallow it. Previous precedent is stands against them. Traditionally, when a manufacturer is tried to limit software to running only on their own hardware, it's been ruled invalid when challenged in court.

So, regardless of what you think of Psystar, this was pretty much GOING to happen eventually. As soon as Apple went to commodity hardware, it was just a matter of time. If Apple looses, then they have a few options:

1. Continually change the OS so that it won't boot on this hacked hardware. Not really a good change at all. If the machines are ruled legal by a court, then they'll be pissing off a ton of customers (THEIR customers from the software end) if they keep breaking the setup. This would generate a ton a negative publicity that would not be good for the company.

2. Change architectures. This is kinda shakey here. For one, they just switched fairly recently. Another switch is going to unsettle their users a bit. Also, besides that fact, the x86 series is the fastest solution for the price right now, so they'd either have to seriously raise their prices (even more), or live with being a few generations back in performance. Also, just as with the previous switch, they'd have to maintain compatibility with the old architecture (virtually all software coming out will still work on my PPC based Mac for example). Based on point 1 I don't see them breaking the old systems - so if they switch then the new versions would likely still have to work with the still updated x86 platform that would still be capable of running OS X.

3. Accept the situation and offer a licensing program to clones that would allow support services for the OS as well as a verified level of quality on the systems.

I'm sure many of you will chime in that #3 was already tried and Apple stopped it, but remember that was without a legal challenge. If Apple is legally prevented from interferring with the sales of OS X compatible machines, then it has a different issue on it's hands.

Naturally, if they won such a suit then it would be back to business as usual. Time will tell, but I wouldn't assume this an open and shut case for either side.

If apple allows osx86 and make it %100 compatible with x86 it would be soo cool
Many people would move to OSX then

OS and Bios are 2 different things. Microsoft owned DOS (MS-DOS) and they owned Windows. Mmot point here.



If they have no plans to license it. Please do so. After all Psystar isnt offering to License it. Just offering to build a cheap PC and use community hacks to get it up and running. As long as they are Legally purchasing OS X ... Who cares I say. Just give the proper respect to those who have invested counteless hours getting OSX to run on anything but apple hardware.



Then we are back to the windows mess of a billion different motherboards and drivers. Just look at what we endure to get it running here... If thats the case and you relegate apple to supporting every body and their mothers parts and pieces, then they need to up the price of OSX....$300 any one?

As a note. Someone mentioned the hardware software sales on the sec filings (or whatever report it was)

They rightly concluded that a bulk of OS X sales that are listed are the ones bundled with the hardware sold. Honestly you can count those numbers, but it distorts the SOFTWARE ONLY sales from the combined software/hardware sales figures.

As an example. Prince went platinum on a CD he GAVE AWAY at his concert dates. He was able to LEGALLY state that he SOLD over a million CD's because people bought tickets to the concerts and he pkg'd the CD as a part of the concert bundle. Get the picture....
Apple makes it's money off Hardware. Bottom Line.

Again, not sure if this has been posted before but look what I found:

http://www.psystar.com/open_source.html



Dunno if it was there before or whether it got added when we criticized them for not crediting the devs, but its there now.

Thats not crediting, thats acknowledging. LOL. Give me credit and my bank account increases. LOL. They are making money off the back of others. They arent just selling a computer, they are selling an assembled machine with the PROMISE of it runniing OS X courtesy of the open source communities hacks. They are MARKETING THE OSC to get their machines sold.

If they pulled all of that out and developed their own hacks... I'd be gravy with them... But that JUST ISNT the case.

I don't understand why Apple need to up the price of Mac OS if they plans to license for normal PC user.
If Apple need to write billion different hardware's drivers and test them by Apple themselves.
Yes, it costs much.

But we can back to see what's PC does, the hardware company make a new hardware,
they write the driver themselves and "pay money" for MS to test and get MS ready certificated.

As the same way Apple can get huge money from the billion different hardware.
If manufacture want their products to use in Mac, they have provide the drivers and money to get Mac ready certificate.

Also why Mac OS need to support all the hardwares?
They only need to say Mac OS is only support for Mac ready certificated hardware.
If costumer wants to use Mac in their own PC smoothly,
buy Mac ready certificated hardwares.


How about the Apple's own Mac hardwares?

Yes, Apple makes it's money off Hardware. Bottom Line.
We all know Apple is a symbol of fashion and quality.
What's the different between Designed by apple in California, Assembled in China
and Made in Japan or Made in USA?

Will customers happy to pay much and buy a Rolex which is not Swiss Made?

If Apple Open the license for normal pc to install Mac OS.
Why not Apple just made their computer in USA or Japan factories,
so Mac fans who want to buy original Apple made Mac instead the Mac ready certificated PC will pay happier.

No Japanese buy Apple made in China. That's for sure And if they do, they commit harakiri soon after...

I think releasing OS X for every X86 machine would be its downfall. I think OS X is protected by its small percentage on the market. If everyone can install OS X officially, without the "crack" and "stolen" hassle, every freak would start hacking the {censored} out of it.

Who wanna see osx on every lousy config? Personally I'd like to see it on several good pcs...

The only legal fight they may win is the DCMA and the encrypted part of OSX86. However, this is only a law in the US.

They could fight simply by offering better value.

I have a feeling that Psystar is secrectly backed by big money trying to challenge Apple through the back door.

Psystar's stratgey is pretty goog since Apple is still theoretically making money out of this.

have any sites gotten one yet?

I lost interest in this matter (whether it should be possible to install OS X on any computer) a long time ago, but I used to say in the past that Apple could sell OS X bundled with a motherboard, at a premium price, with a list of compatible hardware and with a strong warning about issues which might arise.
It wouldn't bring less money than the Mini, after all.

Another consideration. Has anybody ever thought that the only "value for money" computer Apple manufactures is the Mac Pro? (that is, if you don't start adding extras). I wonder why. But on the other hand the Mac Pro is probably the least sold.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/04/24/psystar.offers.proof/

If the system crashes and you have to re-install 10.5 you have to send the computer back to them. You cannot do this on your own. This is per their tech support...

haha, true.The Japanese don't really have high regards for Apple computers, because it's assembled in China, as my step-mom tells me - and the fact that they would rather support their own country's companies (Sony, Toshiba)It's over-kill for the vast majority of the world.Most people don't even need Core2Duos (given today's productivity and internet apps).

Red herring.

He asked why the Mac Pro was the least sold, even though it's the most bang for the buck. It's still a $2000 computer. The point is you can get a Dell (or Psystar, in this scenario) for $400. Grandma can surf the net the same way on her $400 psystar as she could on the Mac Pro, so is it really more value to her to buy Mac Pro?

If grandma can't recover her system after a update bricking her system or the hard drive crashing, then she needs support of some kind. The $600 psystar system will leave her high and dry, unless she pays another $50 + shipping to have Psystar fixing it. Grandma probably needs to pull out her calculator and add up the total cost of this machine; she'll quickly find that in buying the psystar machine, she didn't add in the opportunity cost lost from any maintenance issues. If she wanted to use OSX, she's probably better off just getting the mac and saving herself the headache. She get an amount of limited software/hardware support and she has the option of buying 3 more years of support... and Apple will actually take her call and won't send her away from the Genius Bar. I want to be there the first time someone tries to bring their OpenPC into the apple store and watch the people laugh. Oops!

I used to build computers for friends but started directing them to companies that offered support because I couldn't support them constantly, especially after ruining their systems with spyware and viruses. And that's with running Windows XP where you could just put the OS disk in and install. You didn't have to do special tricks to get the system working. These are people that couldn't keep their virus programs up to date and ran any exe that showed up in their inbox.

I've looked at comments at various sites and it amazes me that anyone would buy one of these things without doing their homework. I just think it's going to be funny when one of these owners mess of their machine and find they will have to ship whole computer back (if they can't figure out how to unplug the hard drive) so Psystar will have to reinstall the system.

Also it will be interesting to see people wanting this cheap "mac" and don't order the preinstallation... will they be in for a surprise when they try to put the Leopard disk in and the PC won't read it. I can imagine a bunch of people owning $400-600 paperweights.

I know being able to have a cheaper mac sounds great, but you have to weigh how you will take care of it. Thus I doubt grandma won't be too satified with this purchase. I made myself a Hackintosh using a Vanilla install (and a Corecrib years before that), and I know someone without the technical savvy could be able to maintain the machine. My Corecrib installed the mac os without a hitch (aside from connecting the G4 motherboard to the PC case), but my hackintosh needed tweaks to get it working near perfectly... but I think I'm preaching to the choir on this.

Just posting that I found the case that they use on newegg (I like it and been SEARCHING but found it when I wasnt looking).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16811173014

I hope they go down as well though, cause this kind of attention they bringing to the osx86 scene can mean bad news not just for them but for us too

I like that idea. They'd be getting back to their early roots of supporting the hobbyist community. Sell it for $666.66.

No, you said it was overkill for most people, and while that may be true it has no bearing on anything here. We could all be driving around in horse and buggies and be saving hundreds of thousands of lives a year while doing it, but we don't for a reason. The market is set up in segments and each segment differs from the next. How many are sold in each segment is irrelevant. Apple sells a lot of Mac Pros. Sure not as many as Mac minis or laptops but again that is irrelevant. The Mac pro is the high end of high end. It contributes (partially) to Apples image. If they made just low end equipment then they would be perceived as a low end company. This is why companies like Ford will spend millions developing limited edition cars like its GT. It's not always about just plain sales

With that scenario, you almost invalidate the point of psystar. A mini is what?? 199 more... Grandma can surf on a real mac with real support for 199 more. Oops, my bad. $45 more because OS X runs $155 from psystar.

Psytars advantage is the PCI slots. Otherwise there is no real benefit to the psystar over apple labeled product when you add support and every other benefit into the mix.

SO if we can all stop saying a $400 computer for the purposes of this thread, psystar is offering a $555.00 computer (This is an OS X thread right???)

Exactly! That makes a lot of sense. Apple manufactures the Mac Pro (mainly) for the image. Even if they don't earn a lot by selling it. But if you start adding extras (which probably most buyers do), they make a nice profit as well.

i build my own computers and my friends are always callin' me to fix their pc's. i see my knowledge of pc's as "standard everyday knowledge" not "i can fix your pc". when my pc crashes and i can't get it workin' usin' google or reinstallin' windows, then i take it to a pc repair shop just like everybody else. but, i try to help them and i rarely ever fix their pc's. and they still continue to call for "free support" (i should start chargin' them a "small fee", $5, $20...).

yea, i don't see why ppl don't do their homework. it is soooooo easy to google for reviews and see if it is worth it or not, that's how i chose the parts for my next pc upgrade...

The more I learn about china, the more I'm apt to agree with the Japanese. Why can't Apple find another place to do business with? It can't be based all on price because I'm sure other countries would be competitive in that area. If Apple comes out with a new Mac mini, a tablet, or a desktop model that's between the mini and the Mac Pro, I will be buying one almost immediately, but I sure do wish it was being built anyplace else other than china

This is maybe another discussion, but China has also built up a better infrastructure. But I am sure that Apple are using plants in more than just China.

I don't think you guys really read the thread, just specifically my post.

Someone said the Mac Pro is the most bang-for-the-buck Apple computer, which means most "value". And I replied stating while that may hold true to power-users, someone who just surfs the net or does simple word processing (We'll say a low-ball figure of 75%. And since 75% = Vast majority) a Mac Pro is over kill, in terms of "value". And since a MacMini or equivalent proves to serve more "value" to these web-surfing-word-processing end users over the $3000 Mac Pro, it would be considered overkill to spend the extra $2400. Get it? Good.

While the Psystar computer doesn't hold true value to non-tech-savvy people who needs someone to hold their hand while re-installing OS X (grandma), it's more valuable than a MacMini (or an iMac) to people who are relatively tech-savvy and can go on a website (such as IM) to find solutions, if any.

I agree that Psystar is in the wrong by offering the works of our community for a charge, not directly supporting our community, and sending customers to IM for support - but it IS helpful for people who would like a pre-built solution and has a reasonable idea of what the OSX86 project is about.

Terrible example, btw -- in your logic, everyone should be driving a Porsche. The point is, there's more valuable (there's that word again) options between the extremes of horse and buggy and Porsche.

...I was speakin' about Japan, 'cause Japan's so-called "economy failure" state a lot about the world's trends and predictions... "Made in Japan" is a well-known label but it's no longer so competitive in the recent digital era. And I was wondering why... (I'm a "made in Japan" guy)

The Newsweek provided me some answers... Answers that seems to apply to Apple's issue... The secret lies in the "modular" products, made up of existing products that "ppl mix and match in an innovative way". The Japanese tend to exel at "integral" products like cars, things with components designed from scratch... I was speakin' about Apple's single-minded vision. But since the Japanese still have nigthtmairs they haven't invented the iPod, I think Apple won't follow "Japan's failure"... This is why I think Apple shall sell osx for some pc hardware configs... Since the beginnings of the time MS tells ppl "computers are for everybody", but we all know other way... We know computers no matter "how easy" they are, they're still "the matter of a few"... and the perfect os hasn't (yet) been invented! We can appreciate what is worth it and what isn't... We can appreciate how much is enough (for the money we pay). I don't think osx issue it's about grandma's computer... seriously! She'll use the iPhone v.6 pretty soon...

Hit me if I'm wrong (My grandma doesn't know to use the computer, but she gives her best... And so does my father... If your grandmas and parents are power users, I salute them all !)

Sounds good to me, although from what I've seen most Americans couldn't fit into one

Couldn't say it better myself

lmfao, oh America, you so fat.

It would be nice, one could only dream...

This thread is really getting out of proportions (sic!). Anyway, why would a computer-savvy person buy from psystar? And why would a non-savvy person buy there? I don't think either is interested. If you know computers you could make your own build, if you don't you would be better off with a mac if you want os x.

Sorry to say it again but is this really strictly a Paystar case?

I would buy the hardware from psystar and install myself as at newegg the parts cost more than $399

why people refer to china as a cheap a$$ country? i m not chinese but dont think it is china that makes exteremely cheap quality products/parts? it is the demand from the big guys, who wants the most output with least investment... sounds familiar? capitalism?... usa's middle class is dying, not bcoz of china, but bcoz of people's demand for cheapest products, and their desire to maximize profits... majority of the big companies are getting their r&d pretty much in their own country/labs. and send it to mass production in far east... but china or other countries are not making things cheap, people who demand production in there set their standards and quality... do you think apple is demanding best quality production? well wheter you believe or not, they just deman best quality finish but not long lasting realy, not anymore, look at ipods and others? how many of you had to buy a shield cover big bada boom stuffs from day one, bcoz their toys gets scratched? or broken? esp, apple is in the boom, and they dont want people to stop buying while their momentum is high right now... their so called secrets b4 each meeting for devs or techs is just to keep people from knowing their brand new product will recieve an update, at the same price u just paid only 1 months ago, or so, or if u wanna update to newest, u ll have to pay nice sum of $$$... is apple wrong? no it s the result of capitalism... psystar, on the other hand is not different opportunist, same results grew from the greedy capitalistic system :)is capitalism bad? well it is like a car-driver situation, it works as how you drive it... cheers...

I don't wanna be hasty, but you speak like you lived in communism... Well, I did! I doubt capitalism is ok as as doubt communism was... But this is certainly out of the topic... pls read my back posts...

COMMUNISM FTW!!!!

Maybe cars should come in different sizes, like shoes

just because i'm a {censored} and like to get a rise out of some people, especially when we all know that what they are doing is wrong, i decided to contact psystar with the following email:


Ok, I have been looking into getting an apple computer now for a little while. How legitimate is this computer you are actually selling as a mac clone?? How stable are these machines?? If these are mac clones then why is there patching involved? Will I be able to get support from apple and not be bothered by legalities? Will I be able to update my software from apple with out any problems? Are you legally allowed to be associating yourself with the OSx86 project group? Are you providing technical support or are you shipping customers off to the OSx86 project group, and if the later of the 2 are you paying these people for their time, knowledge and support of your customers? Did you pay the people at the OSx86 Project to use their work to sell your project? Did you steal the work from the people in the OSx86 project? Yes, it would be very nice to have lower priced, higher performance machine that does run leopard natively, but… at the same time, if what I think is happening here is true, then I think that someone should set you straight. Its not fair that you are making a profit on a large group of people’s work, especially with out prior knowledge, nor consent from them. You might want to rethink your business plan and go about doing things the right way.

Sincerely

Yeah they just make poisonous pet food that kills our pets, and dangerous lead ridden toys for our children again and again. It's so wierd how all of that could have "slipped through" their quality control departments


Not sure I'm ready to see an extra-extra-large Corvette with truck suspension

They make what there is demand for and I doubt they aim to kill pets and children. You talk about their quality control and that they make lead ridden toys for your kids? Tell me, is a Chineyman you buy it from or from Walmart or ToyRUs? You guys need to take responsibility for your hand in things, its never one person to be blamed. What happen to US quality control? How come killer pet food and lead ridden toys get through to reach your kids?