Hi,

I saw a Future Shop Flyer the other day and I compared to laptops, a MacBook and a PC Laptop

MacBook
13.3" Screen
2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
CD-RW/DVD-ROM Combo Drive
80GB SATA HD
AirPort Express and WiFi 802.11b (I think)
Mac OS X 10.4.10
Intel GMA950 Graphics
Price: $1134

PC Laptop (HP/Compaq, Acer, Lenovo, or something. Don't remember)
15.4" Screen
2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
SuperMulti Drive (DVD-RW/DVD+RW)
120GB SATA HD
5 in 1 Card Reader
802.11g (I think)
Windows Vista Home Premium
ATI Mobility Radeon X1600
Price: $899

***

Compare the specs and the prices. No wonder why people choose PCs over Macs. If Apple were to lower their prices to compete with PCs, then they would be ruling right now.

Uh-oh, here we go again...

Duck and cover!!

Macs are not more expensive (post #11)

With all respect, it's hard to take seriously any such claim where specs are reported wrong (wireless) and there is no mention of something basic like RAM.

Regardless, there are many budget PCs available that get the job done, and for less than a Mac (or a Vaio) it is certainly true. It's all been said before, so no need for me to go there - it all boils down to stuff that people value differently.

They were not reported wrong as of the day of that writing.

If wireless got added, then Dell added it.

I think he's referring to the OP claiming the MacBook has 802.11b, which is just ridiculous since Macs have been using g for over 4 years (at least the PowerBooks - can't remember exactly when the iBooks started).

No they wouldn't.
Sure it might increase sales, but currently Macs and OS X not being the dominant platform has a lot more to do with other factors other than just price.

P.S. I'm looking at the latest Future Shop flyer and their web site and don't see that system. Got a link or a scan of the ad?
Sounds like a nice system but if it is no longer available it could have been an inventory close out reduction and in that case the comparison is a little unfair.

All the systems I see in that range are slower 1.8Ghz range T5250 and have Intel integrated video acceleration. (Or not Core 2)

Edit: This is the closest I see: http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetai...0568&catid=

I guess I got mixed up with 802.11g and 802.11b (switch around with the Mac and the PC). I read that post #11 and I see you've included the software costs too. I'm saying this based on hardware...

Headrush,

That laptop in the link is not the one I saw...The one I saw was glossy black.

I know and never suggested it was.

I'm asking you for more info on it. My sister is looking for a PC and if those stats are true that is a good deal.
(Like I said I have yet to see one with both a Core 2 Duo and a decent video option for that price.)


When you buy a system you are buying much more than just hardware and I think one of biggest downfalls of how people compare systems these days. A computer is a tool that should last most people many years and price shouldn't be the only consideration.
($300 over 3 years is hardly a remarkable difference)

I've seen you refer back to your post a # of times and without wanting to start another long thread: in my opinion, I disagree with some of the factors you've used to make the other computer come out costlier than the mac.

looking at the # of people here who ask for help on hackintoshes, an educated guess would be: there is a price factor involved. The time you spent trying to make a hackintosh work is also a reflection on price. I would much rather do something else with my time than try to find OSX images, download and burn them and then the often strenuous exercise of making it work on non-approved hardware. ( jas? uphuck? v1.4? v1.4r1? v1.4r3? )

And i even like doing that kind of stuff.

For myself, I was able to price out a generic machine that was far cheaper than a mac pro. I would have preferred to by the mac pro.

the only way i can support the apple eco system is to buy the software i use. And i try to do so.

Thanks.

1. macs are much more expensive.
2. apple keeps em that way since they have an image to maintain
3. see my sig for a $500 laptop and $300 desktop better than any apple at twice the price

you either by a lexus (apple) with everything working or you buy a toyota (PC) and modify it with leather interior and fancy trim to give you an equivalent to one.
internally they both are the same. the trick is to make one look like the other while avoiding the high sticker price. and no, apple would be really stupid to reduce the price to below $1000-$2000. their image would be lost in a second.

Terrible comparison.
Argue all you want that $100-$200 difference for a desktop is overpriced or not, but comparing custom boxes to pre-made systems is wrong.
You could also say Dell, Acer, HP are all over priced too then, which also means your number 2 argument is wrong.

neither box is custom. my shuttle is an xpc barebones from newegg with shuttles recommended ram and cpu and my laptop is off the shelf wednesday special at circuitcity.

Next time please compare a 13.3 to a 13.3.

That is still considered a custom box. Its not an end-user complete system with an OS. (not talking about the laptop)

I'm not one for arguing that you can't find cheaper PC systems, but I absolutely hate these comparisons that are overly misleading.
Just like the Intel E2xxx series processor is not the same as the CPUs in the iMacs.
It is perfectly fine to argue that the 10% drop in performance due to the smaller L2 cache doesn't mean much or matter much to most people, but if the only factor people want to argue is price than you can't compare dissimilar systems.

Saying you can get similar functionality cheaper, fine, but at that point its not a true price comparison.

Thats the whole point. Theres 15.4" PC laptop with better specs that is better than the MacBook. The 15.4" costs almost half less than the MacBook with the 13.3 screen.

Still waiting for proof.

The proof is the specs

Just a warning, don't start another thing about Vista being slow as hell..We all know. If you don't like the Vista on the PC Laptop, just install OS X or some other OS on it

pcwiz

That sure helps my sister.

I think the little "computer shop" on the corner is advertising Dual Core, 2GB RAM, 20" LCD, 500GB HD with a Geforce 8800GTX for $399 too.



Huh?

Sorry about my rant about Vista....some people tend to say, comparing OS X and Vista, that the OS is an argument to justify the price.

BTW, about that computer shop on the corner, you're joking right?

You do realize that smaller PC Laptops cost a lot more then their 15.4 brothers do. Plus the screen on a Macbook is better then what goes on these common laptops. Check out 12/13 inch laptops out there, they cost a boat load more. Your logic is flawed.

Good point. The 15.4" display on my HP would seem to some people to be better than the 13.3" display on a MacBook, but in reality both are the same resolution. The 15.4" display just has physically larger pixels. Smaller displays at the same resolution cost more than larger ones.

Plus, let's be honest. You pay extra for good design, that's why you don't buy clothes in K-mart...

For a simple test, flip your PC laptop over, what do you see? Air vents perchance? Why the $#%^ would you put them there if it's a LAP top? - because it's a hell of a lot cheaper to build them that way, no expensive heatpipes. Unfortunately, it means no lapy on bed, no lapy on your lap etc.... So what is it, a small desktop really? Now flip over any mac laptop from 1998 onwards, not a single vent hole; in fact the new macbooks /pros have the exhaust protected by the hinge mechanism to stop it being obstructed. Hey, GF's macbook can sit on the duvet.

Or the magsafe connector, how much will you save when you trip over your cord and have to replace the logicboard because you just ripped out a surface mount connector?

Or screens, did you know that most cheap laptop screens can't get 8 bits a channel and use 6 + dither?

Or... Or....

You pay extra for good design, that's why a SAAB costs more than a Toyota. They both get you from A to B, which one will be more fun to drive?

Here is a laptop that is more comparable to a Macbook.

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/control...7E1A6952DF8E9DF

i used to buy toughbooks at $2000 each until i figured out they last the same as dells and ibms and finally i swiched to generic acers.
laptops get abused a lot and i dont see a $2000 apple lasting any longer than a mil spec toughbook (1 year). its cheaper to buy a $500 laptop and destroy it after a year then a $2000 laptop. so thats what im happy with.

I never destroyed a laptop. You must be careless.

500 dollars laptops are usually cheaply made. The quality is not there.

Well, I guess Apple computers may have better design and better quality, but a new computer user isn't gonna consider that. A new computer user, unless they're well read will go for the PC Laptop over the Mac, especially when they see Vista's GUI, but mainly because of the price. Thats the point I'm trying to make.

So why is that Apple makes its much more expensive Macbook Pro with at least a 15" screen?
From your post it would sound as if Apple is trying to promote small screens, which is definitely not the case: they dropped the 17" iMac and their offerings with larger screens cost always more, not less.



That is most likely true, but in Italy it has become common to find €800/900 laptops (special offers, new) with really great specs: dual core, at least 1GB RAM (but often 2GB), 160GB hard drives, good dedicated graphics cards, 17" screens... They are HP most of times. So I challenge everybody to explain why they aren't good value when compared to Macbooks/Macbooks Pro.

Because Apple decided to differentiate their prices the way they are. If sales flatten out they will either reduce price or that's the que to create a new product to replace it. People are willing to pay a premium to use a Macbook Pro. Apple isn't competing with Dell, IBM, HP, Compaq, Toshiba, Sony. It's also made out of better parts instead of generic OEM manufactured parts that all these laptop companies use. HPs are cheap and cheaply made. It feels flimsy compared to my Macbook.
They are probably a great value, would I ever buy one? Nope I don't like them.
I guess screen size is a big deal to you but I prefer less then 15.4 inches and the Macbook fits my bill. I use a 22 inch LCD when it's at home.

My Dell e1505 is sufficient for my needs, with 1680x1050 15.4" LCD, ati x1400 w/ 128mb ram, 2gb ram, 100gb hd... for $650.
I can't imagine ever considering a macbook. They're 100% trash. A macbook pro might be feasible, if it was more reasonably priced.

The iMacs are a little more sensible, however.

The same old story. Macs are oh so much better manufactured, and then we hear all sort of horror stories about their quality. And why are HP so "cheaply made"? The brother of a friend of mine is still happily using a HP Pavilion I bought in April 2002. If you don't like HP there are still Toshiba, Fujitsu Siemens... Surely they can't all be crap...



You missed the point. I wasn't talking about my personal tastes, I was simply stating facts, that is, it isn't true that Macbooks are more expensive than the competition because they are small, because Macbooks Pro are a lot more expensive

You confuse good specs with quality manufacture. The components that make up the specs are the cheap bulk buy parts; the quality of the plastics, thermal management, etc are the expensive parts. There is no way to quantify them on a sales brochure. As an owner of a HP dv2405tu and a macbook I can tell you the macbook is far more robustly constructed, inside and out. My HP (which is my linux work horse) is fine sitting up on a desk, for anything else it's useless due to deficiencies in it's design. IMHO, most cheap PC laptops are only good as small portable desktops, any other usage tends to kill them promptly.

No I don't. I didn't start yesterday using computers.
I didn't mention Packard Bell or similar rubbish, did I?
Ask any IT professional here in Italy: they'll tell you that HP is quite OK. And if that isn't enough, there are Toshiba, Fujitsu Siemens...
And don't get me started about the myth of Apple quality, because I can search this forum and the whole internet and write pages of nightmarish experiences.
If you Apple zealots could at least admit the truth: Macs and Apple gadgets are very expensive, especially here in Europe, and there is nothing to justify the price (except maybe for better design, but that is not enough).

Justify their price? Have you heard of supply and demand? Basic economic principles.

That must be why here in Italy they are virtually unknown, even among geeks.

OK...I'll just back away and leave you guys to continue the debate

lol
pcwiz

Woah, easy Daisy....
As you can see from my posts I bought an HP as well, I'm not saying they are crap; just not as good in quality and design as the macbook. Especially inside (ok, I'm geeky enough to actually pull new laptops apart to see how they are built, sad eh...), the HP's thermal management reminds me of my G3 powerbook c.1999.



I'm sure Apple gets it's share of dud units, as does any manufacturer; since none of them are going to release their data we can only speculate. But, when consumer magazines run user satisfaction ratings, Apple tends to score very highly. I think we can safely infer that their return rate must be at or lower than competitors.

As far as asking if better design is worth the extra money, well that's a purely subjective decision. How much is a better OS, a full suite of bundled applications, no virus/spyware, a laptop that can be used off the desk, etc. worth to you? Or, more importantly, how much is the "it just works" experience worth to your typical -non computer savvy- consumer.

Apple does not sell in the budget market because there's sweet FA profit to be made there unless you are moving huge volumes. Criticising that, is a bit like saying that BMW is overpricing it's cars because it sells less cars then Toyota. If you can't afford Apple that's tough, but you are not their target market and I'm sure Jobs isn't loosing any sleep over it. Ah... Apple, the computer for the middle classes and their kids .... Maybe this should be Apple's new marketing slogan "Think Bourgeoisie."

I'm going to buy a new computer and I took a look around:
PC MAC
Intel E6750 1066Mhz Intel T7300 800Mhz
2x1GB 667Mhz S3 1GB 667
Seagate SATA2 250Gb 250Gb
nvidia 8600GT HD2400XT
Vista HP Mac OSX
Monitor Philips 20" 2ms 20"
1050€ 1200€

I really want to buy an iMac but I think 1200€ for that hw is too much. I'm sure Osx is much better than Vista, but I use Windows from 3.1 and I never had a crash. I think that in linux and Mac world there is a lot of hypocrisy. You say Linux is stable and safe, you say "to run Vista you must buy new hw". If you use Linux with software it crashes many times, my Vista never crashed, I use Antivir and Spybot and I never had virus problem. I think that if Windows is the most popular OS it's not a case! I really want someone can make change my mind!

I agreed with Consolation with most if not all his/her view about the cost of a mac.

I just did a quick comparison. I think dell xps models are more comparable to macbooks than the inspirion cause of the build quality.

With Apple macbook: 1299.99
2.16 C2D
120 gig HD
1 Gig ram
13.3 inch lcd
gma 950
super drive
isight
55 watt battery

Configured as close as possible to macbook.
With XPS M1330: 1574.99 (btw the base model is 1299.99, which has 1.5ghz C2D, no webcam, 37watt battery)
2.2 C2D
120 gig HD
1 gig ram
13.3 inch lcd
x3100
dvd burner
webcam
56 watt battery

Note, the xps has a better video card (gma 950 vs x3100) , and processor (2.16 vs 2.2) , that may justify the higher cost for xps. The thread is about high price of apple product. we are know that there are cheaper dell or hp, but what i'm looking at is what the each company offer that is comparable in terms of construction/design (eg attention to details) and the component they choose to used.

Does apple macbook seem more expensive when compare to dell xps. Not really. Can you get rebate or coupon code to make them cheaper? maybe, it seems most coupon are for inspirion models. And rebate for macbook can sometimes be found through amazon.com

For those who used/tried a macbook and a pc notebook knows that the out of the box experience is slightly different. This i think apple have an advantage.

So if you had $1500 to buy a notebook (5 pounds or less) which would you buy? For me I would get the macbook ($1299.99) + XP - The Just Incase OS (199.99), This way I have best of both the 3 worlds (mac,windowz,linux). It's just worth the investment.

You also forgot to mention that on that PC all Viruses are free, and they won't even work on a mac.

************

Acumos - No, my friend. You are beautiful, no matter what they say. The world can't bring you down.

May your PC heart be blessed forever.

Me?

Well, I'm cursed with an innate sense of design, a pragmatic users philosophy, a love of black turtlenecks, and a creative work environment that has unfortunately been Mac-centric for decades. I remember how they laughed at us in 1995 for being a slave to Mac - at $11.00 a share.

I really want a new Zune, and I feel so deprived because our COO gave us these worthless iPod Classics to occupy our free time. I mean, clipped on my belt it may look good as a man-purse (some people say "murse"), but it really would make more sense to accessorize with a brown Zune.

Nobody here even complains that we have to use Macbooks instead of a nice Dell when we travel. To make matters worse, our travel accounts are all business class. You know what that means don't you? We are deprived of the chance of meeting Mr. Microsoft himself because we are not allowed to fly coach.

There my friend, I hope I have convinced you to "stay the course" of your PC heart.


*having just a little fun.

It must be a matter of personal experience and which distro you use.
In my experience openSUSE is rock solid. As to Vista, until recently it kept crashing on me beyond recovery after a Windows Update or even installing a simple app like Firefox. Not to mention the lack of drivers or the terrible compatibility with programs I owned.
As to OS X I find it also rock solid. However these days I use openSUSE more often because I find it more flexible for my needs.
Why is Windows the most popular OS? Because they came before the others with a cheap OS for beige hardware. These days it is preinstalled on most PCs. However even Microsoft is beginning to realize that Vista is a potential failure (by allowing everybody to downgrade and by extending XP availability).

i like debian etch myself.
suse has issues. YaST sucks compared to apt and RPM based distros generally suck as a matter of course.

I haven't used it for long but Ubuntu is working great for me. Oh and you may already know but Dell is selling Ubuntu preinstalled on some of their computers. See here:

http://www.ubuntu.com/dell

You might be surprised but I like SUSE and Debian almost the same.
However I have been using openSUSE more, of late.
Don't use YaST as a package manager, use smart instead.

Hmm....maybe I should change the topic title to which Linux OS/Software do you prefer.

You need a bit of impartiality. 1) Bill Gates can't keep Dell to preinstall Windows, Steve Jobs can! 2) Yesterday I went to an Apple Retailer to try the new iMac Aluminum and as I started iMovie and tried to cut a clip the system crashed: the clip played but iMac needed to be restarted and now I see why...read the news! Vista has problem but not "out of the box"!!!

I believe I am reasonably impartial. If Windows was a good OS I would use it (more), why not.
As Linus Torvalds once said: "I don't mind them making money, I mind them making bad products"




That is pretty odd. I have had tons of problems "out of the box" with Vista, and so have countless other people.

Apparently you are the odd one out who has no problems with Vista, but has problems with OS X first attempt!

You have totally missed the point when talking about screens. For example, the screen in my HP is 15.4" but is the same resolution as that of the MacBook (1280x800). The screen on the MacBook Pro is 15.4", but is 1440x900, and the 17" version is 1680x1050. Many other brands' smaller laptops have a lower resolution screen than the MacBook.

A higher resolution screen at the same size generally costs more (therefore the screen on the MacBook Pro would cost more than the screen on mine). A smaller screen at the same resolution generally costs more as well (therefore the screen on the MacBook would cost more than the screen on mine).
Not only that, but there are many other differences between a MacBook and a MacBook Pro that make up the difference in price (processor, video card, RAM, hard drive, ExpressCard slot, etc.).

I am sure I've already said this but I hate Vista. OK so I installed Vista and installed PC-Cilin for Vista. I later wanted to remove PC-cillin antivirus and in the middle of the removal Vista crashed and it wouldn't let me remove the program.

I've had tons of problems with Vista...

Whatever. But still nothing justifies the huge difference in prices (here in Europe) between Macbooks/Macbooks Pro and PC laptops.
At the moment there is one on special offer at a local store with absolutely great specs for €749!!!

(Cheapest Macbook, with miserly specs, Eur 1.049,00!)

You don't have to convince me, you (and Apple) have to convince the consumers of the largest economic area in the world (the EU) that Macs are good value for their money.